To those who think North Korea is an easy win.....

The United States is very good at conventional warfare. It has only gotten better in this regard. Meanwhile, North Koreas military is made up of old soviet era equipment that is literally rusting and falling apart. Lets not pretend that North Korea stands a chance in a conventional war, because they don't.

The only reason why the US has not attack North Korea is because South Korea will not allow it. I can't blame the South, as they have a lot more to lose than the US does. Seoul is a virtual loss at this point. But the North knows that if they do such a thing, it virtually assures their own fate. They stand to lose far too much.

You can't really compare Iraq to North Korea either. First off, Iraqs military was handily defeated on two different occasions (1991, and 2003) after the first few days of battle. After the conventional bombardment was over, the war essentially was over. The conflict however was not. The rebuilding process quickly began. This meant that a fighting force designed to fight other militaries was put in the awkward position of being a police force against a foreign population while that country rebuilt itself with US taxpayer funds...You can view that as a 'win' or a 'loss'. But lets not pretend that the US had its ass handed to it militarily...

If there is a war (and I honestly don't see a war on the horizon, just sabre rattling) North Koreas military will be destroyed with relative ease. They just don't have the technology, or logistics, or manpower/well trained soldiers necessary to be successful in a campaign against South Korea, let alone the US. And if they use a nuke (assuming they have a delivery system) than they most certainly seal their fate because of the US nuclear umbrella that protects the South.

Originally posted by FidelityMusic
They have the heart? They have nothing to lose? They don't have anything to live for, yet they're fighting for their home? Let's step into reality here, who do you think will fight harder, the man with nothing to lose, or the man with everything to lose?

If there was real factual proof shown to the American people that North Korea can in fact attack our homeland, and they made the slightest attempt to, military enlistment will boost just like it did after 9/11. The people enlisting will know what they are getting into, those are the people with hearts. Those are the people who know they have everything to lose, a family, a nice life, all the luxuries and privileges in the world other people outside of the U.S. couldn't imagine, but they're putting that on the line to protect their home, family, neighbors, and possessions.

Whether or not we have a shady government, a country full of not so bright people, and people who've been conditioned to think more of themselves then they should, we still have good people ready to take up a fight for their country when a real threat is sensed. People who could care less if it were North Korea we're fighting, or the Canadians. The only thing that matters is protecting what you love from a threat. You can say 99% of our battles were fought with no real incentives.

If it comes down to it, the South Koreans will fight harder than any other countries soldiers in the battle, and don't second guess that those people have heart and something to fight for either. They themselves can and will take care of North Korea if it comes down to it, believe that.

I think you thought this out completely wrong.

wrong

reply to post by pheonix358


War is never easy, anyone that think's so is a fool.

As for the rest of the statements in the thread, It is statements like these that make me wonder how many of the remarks really stand on their own.

As you said Wrabbit, try and find their artillery on Google earth, good luck. You can't find most of their air force either. They have masses of missiles and mobile missile launchers, they are well hidden as well.

Good lord seriously ? No you don't find every gun, troop, or tank by looking at satellite images. You also follow movements, and the logistical trail.

The missile Barrages and artillery shells. While they will cause a lot of damage. Do you really think that with the known numbers that S Korea hasn't planed for this with a neighbor that has been threatening war for the last 60 years?

The people who will be hurt the most in a opening salvo , and bombardment in the war will be the civilians. The way you and wrabbit state your facts seem to glorify this.

Originally posted by pheonix358
As you said Wrabbit, try and find their artillery on Google earth, good luck. You can't find most of their air force either. They have masses of missiles and mobile missile launchers, they are well hidden as well.

I lol'ed. I think the US and South Korea have better options than Google earth...There are probably hundreds of spy satellites alone in the US arsenal. I wouldn't be surprised if they have thermal imaging satellites that allows them to see through all the shrubbery, and mountains. Not to mention spy planes and UCAVs...Most of North Koreas military infrastructure is probably already being targeted as we speak.

We ae lsoing wars nowadays because of the politcal correct attitudes and the awful journalism the U.S.has turned into today.

I'm sure it doesn't feel nice to be labelled as the last surviving member of Mr. Bushs' "Axis of Evil".

Originally posted by rock427

Originally posted by pheonix358
As you said Wrabbit, try and find their artillery on Google earth, good luck. You can't find most of their air force either. They have masses of missiles and mobile missile launchers, they are well hidden as well.

I lol'ed. I think the US and South Korea have better options than Google earth...There are probably hundreds of spy satellites alone in the US arsenal. I wouldn't be surprised if they have thermal imaging satellites that allows them to see through all the shrubbery, and mountains. Not to mention spy planes and UCAVs...Most of North Koreas military infrastructure is probably already being targeted as we speak.

Not to mention that most of their artillery is 100 miles underground :3

reply to post by rockymcgilicutty

Good lord seriously ? No you don't find every gun, troop, or tank by looking at satellite images. You also follow movements, and the logistical trail.

The missile Barrages and artillery shells. While they will cause a lot of damage. Do you really think that with the known numbers that S Korea hasn't planed for this with a neighbor that has been threatening war for the last 60 years?

The people who will be hurt the most in a opening salvo , and bombardment in the war will be the civilians. The way you and wrabbit state your facts seem to glorify this.

On the first point, if they had a couple hundred guns spread over an area of so many square miles? I wouldn't even have bothered looking. Trees and bushes can hide a couple guns here and there while the rocket trucks can be parked in dug outs along hillsides. It wouldn't be worth trying unless NK was flat out simple minded.

When it's 10,000 plus guns that have to be within a known, given range to strike Seoul itself? Now we're getting to narrowing down what MUST be within what defined area and it's worth a look-see and time to search a bit. I expected to find a fair portion of them, as again, firing positions do take physical space and do need to be set up with certain constants for the whole thing to work and be accurate when they pull the lanyard and make it go bang.

So it was, I was shocked to find empty hillsides, empty valleys and no real sign there had been anything disturbed or trucked much of anywhere. That's not reassuring when it seems a given certainty that these *DO* exist. "too quiet.." is the feeling I had as I looked more.

---------

Of course South Korea has plans. They plan to mitigate and deal with mass casualties as best they can as they lose a good part of their capital city. No kidding. That is about as simple as it gets and they have no self delusion about the fact artillery fire isn't something they can shield from. It's a real bad spot to have a capital city just a stone's throw from enemy lines in a war.

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I'm very sorry if you take ANYTHING I say about Iran, North Korea or other hot spots as glorifying anything. War is hell and the most awful pursuit man has ever engaged in. Sometimes it may have reasons to make it unavoidable but it doesn't change the facts. No one WINS in war. One side just loses less than the other and survives the outcome.

I post what I do because the side that shows this is no video game and going 'Rah Rah Rah! Kill 'em All!!' is flat wrong is just a little under represented at times. I research it as tenaciously as I do for personal reasons as well as my enjoyment in the sheer collection of data, reassembling it in an easier to read form and then sharing it. I REALLY prefer when that data is NOT war and death related ....but sometimes, that happens to be the most useful I can present, in my opinion.

Originally posted by omass

Not to mention that most of their artillery is 100 miles underground :3

Then we don't have to worry about the artillery...

Kudos for posting this topic and other related north korean news on ATS. I've been reading quite a few articles already and am really amused how opinions vary. Some are valid and interesting while others are downright armchair ignorant, if there is such a term.

Just to put my two cents in, since I haven't seen someone who has actually been in the Korean Peninsula or Asia for that matter, or claiming to be.

I've been to Singapore, Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, and your countries of interest, China, Japan and South Korea. I'm a freelance creative director for tv commercials and full length feature films. And my work entails me to, well...get to know the culture, psychology and overall feel of the country I'm working on. And as far as the North Korean situation goes, the media is just hyping it all up. The people on the streets are nowhere near alarmed as the media puts it. Like in Japan (Tokyo and Chiba) and South Korea (Seoul and Incheon)...the best reaction I could get was of mild concern and a few shaking heads, meaning I don't know and I don't care. In China, however, you can't get a decent opinion on things since all they do is work and eat...like they don't have time to chat and talk about things that don't make a profit lol If you know what I mean.

I'm not downplaying the situation though...just my POV as a traveler. In fact I have a South Korean friend who told me his stint with their mandatory military training (he has a family now and lives in L.A.), he was called back to his home country when he was doing missionary work in the U.S. when he was 21. And is on call if ever war breaks out...so basically this tells me how serious SK is about homeland defense and that every man who calls himself South Korean is mandated to defend their country even when your living in the U.S., fat ugly and with two kids lol

That being said, I enjoy reading everyone's take on the the matter. Hope everything pans out okay.

P.S. This being a conspiracy site, just a theory of mine. China is slowly eating up territory and already has satellite bases and marine works in Spratly Islands and other nearby islands in South East Asia. Interestingly the territory is also claimed by Vietnam while my friend from the Philippines says it's theirs. So what I'm trying to say is maybe this is a big chess match and China, Russia and the U.S. are playing the opening moves of a gambit. Coz remember, Asia is the next big market economy since the West is already saturated. Asia is ripe for investments and these power brokers are playing a high stakes game on who gets to exploit the region.

Just my thoughts...peace out and good reading everyone!

My question, why fight?

The if they want nukes let them have nukes, if they want to test them let them, i am 99% sure Kim Jong-Un is not that stupid to use nukes in a war and i think NK has the right to protect itself from other threats like the US or Japan or even SK.

The propaganda will escalate to such a level that joint nato forces will invade NK even though nothing happened. The legendary "Oops no weapons of mass destruction over there, maybe they're over here" that G.W. Bush said during a party at the white house.

For these crazy people, killing thousands if not milions is a god damned joke ...

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

So it was, I was shocked to find empty hillsides, empty valleys and no real sign there had been anything disturbed or trucked much of anywhere. That's not reassuring when it seems a given certainty that these *DO* exist. "too quiet.." is the feeling I had as I looked more

Switch to your Google Earth Thermal View, wait A minute Google Earth doesn't have one. BTW the word deployed doesn't mean set up and ready to shoot. Many are "deployed" as mobile units meant to follow with a advance. Also if N Korea opens up the main target will be troops along the DMZ not Seoul.

Of course South Korea has plans. They plan to mitigate and deal with mass casualties as best they can as they lose a good part of their capital city. No kidding. That is about as simple as it gets and they have no self delusion about the fact artillery fire isn't something they can shield from. It's a real bad spot to have a capital city just a stone's throw from enemy lines in a war.

Seoul is about 45 km at it's closest point from the DMZ ( that's the outskirts). Here are some ranges on there guns.

Their 170 mm gun (Koksan) range 40 km

D-30 122 mm 22 km

D - 20 152 mm model 38 km

[url.abovetopsecret.com]AboveTopSecret[/url]

These make up the majority of the 21,000 artillery pieces N Korea has. Now I guess they may have some that are capable of reaching Seoul but not in the number you suggest, and the big ones will be the first that are hunted down when fired.

By no means do I suggest that any war is a walk over. I am just tired of reading doom porn.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I agree, too much has been said about the U.S capabilities involved in fighting a war with N.Korea. I would point out however the fact that america has run black programmes for a long time with technologies that have yet to be revealed. Military planners in the U.S have run theoretical war games based on currently known weapons platforms in which they LOSE the war, but this could just be propaganda to give the apperanance of an equal playing field on the Korean peninnsula.
The true test will be when the U.S has to face down China and demonstrate the FULL spectrum of it's military, a day we should all hope, doesn't arrive.

reply to post by rockymcgilicutty


You wouldn't by chance have a source for that 21,000 gun figure, would you? It is considerably beyond the reports presented to Congress and available from sources such as the Federation of American Scientists and others for estimates of known North Korean military inventory?

I'll leave the rest alone for the time being as I really am buried in term papers for getting time to do that 4th part of my series..but I think I will at this point. A lot of very bad misconceptions about what they have, don't have, where it is and how it is meant to integrate into DPRK doctrine for war with the South. As it happens, checking your numbers for this thread led me to a whole new set of in-depth, dry gov't reports on that very topic.

I also got my own answer as to why I can't see them on public satellite imagery. The post suggesting they were buried deep is actually right on with that. Just not quite THAT deep. Clever people, the North Koreans... Hopefully I can get all that up for pt. 4 by this weekend. It should be an interesting read. Thanks for the input and contribution to the thread! (and indirectly, to my next one)

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

You wouldn't by chance have a source for that 21,000 gun figure, would you? It is considerably beyond the reports presented to Congress and available from sources such as the Federation of American Scientists and others for estimates of known North Korean military inventory?

The source for that figure was military firepower, I have seen you quote them. I will admit I went from memory and took a higher number that I remembered. I just wanted to make sure I didn't underestimate the number.

Have you checked the source I quoted in the post? Didn't know if you were familiar with it, they have lots of good weapon specs.

reply to post by rockymcgilicutty


Yeah, I had looked and it matches some other things I've seen as well. You're right about Military Firepower and I've used that a time or two in posts.

I actually wasn't being sarcastic up there. I'd gone searching this evening from the school computers and for whatever reason, hit the jackpot. Have you ever searched and searched for something online just to find precisely that, by accident, after giving up trying? That's what this was.

I have defector reports and I have defector descriptions of the DPRK Doctrine and Order of Battle. Those weren't good enough though. I haven't had near top quality source reports with all the details filled in and the how's of what the defector reports described as goals. A lot of questions about just HOW they figured on taking and then overrunning Seoul, for instance. Absolutely questions about how they could have the artillery they definitely do ..and not have it spotted, as mentioned earlier in the thread.

Now I know. Both. As well as MUCH more accurate numbers on several systems (Including improved, domestically produced, 170mm guns and shells...and HOW they have all that stored in the hills I was staring at in imagery). It's flat out amazing. They can make a fortune selling tours to what I believe North Korea has dug over there on their side at this point, if anything is left after (God Forbid) real fighting breaks out. Or if real peace comes, which ever.

NOT knowing so much is what stopped me from that 4th part of the series in my signature at the moment. If one reason were taken as the largest one. That problem is solved. Now it's getting the few hours free to focus on and make the last thread.

reply to post by EA006

Yeah, I would say a fight with China would be the one where everything the U.S. had, in a literal way not done since World War II, would come rolling out I think. No secret planes or technologies unused because someone decided we had the luxury to pull punches to maintain secrecy on needed capabilities.

That would be the one I honestly don't know if the US would win, either. I don't know either side would be 'defeated' in the traditional occupation sense either. I think the US and China would do SO much damage to each other, no one would much care by the end of it.

Multitudes of foot soldiers in today's wars is more an encumbrance than benefit. For a country devoid of resources like North Korea, it's purported 1.2mil 'Irish' meat shields amount to little more than target practice. Most would surrender within a week or keel over from starvation. If you cannot resource your army, it's worth zilch. Just ask the Germans who fought on the Eastern Front...

The thing that NK do have going for them is the 10,000-odd artillery aimed squarely at Seoul. These things letting off a few salvos is something no B-2 or F-22 can do anything about. Even Dr Manhattan would struggle to stop Seoul incurring severe infrastructure damage and losses of life approaching 50,000 in case of a Korean conflict. But, again, this 'advantage' is tempered by the fact that thousands of Chinese diplomats and business people live and work in Seoul- would the Kim cult risk angering their already tenuous ally thusly? Highly unlikely.

I ve found this article , I think it's something to think about..

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