Question for LEOs on ATS... damned if you do, damned if you don't

I do NOT think there is ever a good reason to kick someone's door in , especially in the middle of the night...it is a recipe for dissaster as the OP has pointed out quite well with several examples within this thread....The police should knock on the door, announce who they are and make sure they are serving a warrent to the correct house or person.

I absolutely think breaking down someone's door without a warrent is ILLEGAL...the only exception I can see is if there is a fire or some sort of emergency where someone is in eminent danger inside the home. I really don't believe this ridiculous "War on Drugs" justifies "Raiding" private property..especially when the US government are the biggest armed drug dealers in the World....and the "supplier" of many drug dealers to begin with...but that is another subject.

I truly believe that we as a people need to get back to the "It is better to let 10 guilty go free than imprison one innocent man" I think that the weight of taking someones life wrongfully whether done by criminal or judge should carry the same penalty. Our constitution was set up to make sure that if the state could not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you did something you would not see any harm. The justice system now is set up to protect itself even the cops, sorry but it is true, the only difference is the guy shot in his bed did not choose a carreer he might be shot in, a cop did.

Most cops are really cool so I will say it again don't hide from them and tell them how you feel and your concerns. Another thing I did was to let the cops in my town know it wasn't personal but if they did something I felt was against someones rights I would spread the word or picket. What ever I can do to let people know that I think their free rights and happiness is a higher priority than serving a warrant for failure to appear at the most convienient time.

Originally posted by Golf66

Originally posted by jiggerj
I thought that one law enforcement procedure was to raid the homes of suspects late at night, to catch the suspect sleeping and not awake enough to think clearly.

I am no LEO but having spent the majority of my 24 year military career in SF this is exactly why these raids are done late at night. Security and alertness of any potential threats is at it's weakest. The target (often the senior person present) is asleep and unable to direct any reaction.

Originally posted by jiggerjI just don't like this.

Unfortunately this is simply the best and most safe method for everyone involved - even for the target and especially for bystanders (family and kids). In the US the police still have to identify themselves when serving a no-knock warrant. Several States absolve the homeowner of any liability if a peace officer fails to properly identify himself when approaching in a threatening manner. I suppose a judge/jury would weigh heavily any evidence of overt police presence (uniforms marked POLICE, etc.) even in the absence of clear vocal identification and recognition. The homeowner would have to prove he/she was so disoriented as to be unable to react other than defensively...

I think it would be hard for someone to get away with shooting police in a raid that is if one survives at all...the police don't take kindly to people shooting thier mates.

I personally have been involved in raids on the wrong address downrange. One of which resulted in the death of a child. Thankfully, that was not my personal burden to bear as I was not the shooter; however, as the leader of the raid I feel responsible to this day. We went to the right place and my Sergeant was vindicated as the kid (12) did have an AK in hand. No one can really blame him either, we respectfully handled his corpse as IMO he was a true warrior even at his tender age willing to die to defend his family. They were completely innocent BTW of any wrong dooing other than being a place where a known Taliban bomb maker occasionally stayed. I doubt they even knew he made the IED's but I was not involved in the interrogations so I really don't know that.

What happened in this case was just bad intelligence - I am sure that somewhere up the chain a call was made with (IIRC an 80% certainty) that our target was on the premises. I am also sure someone paid career wise for making that call. It was way above my grade though. Incidentally, the family was related to the target and was paid the blood money (upwards of 50K IIRC) as is local custom. Won't get their son back though.

ETA: Ironically since they were related I bet a good portion of that 50K went right into bomb making suplies used against us...

I respect that the kid reacted as he did.

Originally posted by jiggerj
Can't LEO's wait until they see a suspect leave home alone and catch him out in the open? It just seems a lot safer for his family and for the people wrongly attacked at night.

No, because you lose control of the engagement. If you engage the target in a known "box" (the home) you limit the variables involved. Once loose the subject can do too many things and involve too many other innocents to justify the risk.

It is not an exact science it is an art - sometimes the intelligence is wrong, sometimes the operators (or in this case the police) simply go to the wrong place. Downrange this is easier as the houses are not marked with numbers or street names in most cases. I don't really see how the police in an American city could go to the wrong address other than when the address is mismarked on the warrant or bad information is obtained. Also, a key part of any raid is the pre-raid surveillance which should confirm the target with intelligence and operational control elements (leadership).

Personally, if someone busts in my door at night I will probably die if it is the police because I will likely react aggressively and defensively before I rationalize what is going on.

I don't suspect the law will ever have reason to do so in my case as the local Sheriff and I are friends...but I guess the feds could if I make enough lists.

edit on 12/4/2013 by Golf66 because: (no reason given)

""" If you engage the target in a known "box" (the home) you limit the variables involved. Once loose the subject can do too many things and involve too many other innocents to justify the risk. """"

The above statement is what is wrong with cops these days. Cops should never be militarized. Suspects are not meant to be military targets!

I've told this story before here on ATS, but I would like to share it again in this thread with hopes that members of ATS that are police officers can explain to me...why and how this could happen? Before I begin, my intention is not to "cop bash"...I actually recently wrote a thread about a very kind police officer that helped my Dad recently, I have met some very cool police officers, especially in the small town I live in now, very different then the city.

About 3 yrs. ago I lived in the Bay Area in CA.....my BF and I lived in the same town, but each had our own places, we were both employed, not involved in illegal activity, ( other then to "party" from time to time ) we certainly would not have been on the police's "radar" as dangerous, or trouble makers, we don't own guns....

Anyways an aquaintence of ours shows up at my door late at night, very drunk, at first I tried to be nice, but I should have never let him in, my 19 yr. old daughter was there too, in her room, we were getting ready for bed....he became obnoxious, grabbing on me, refusing to leave, my daughter hears this and calls my BF, who is there within 5 min. my BF asked him to leave, he still refuses, and starts to become aggressive, at this point my BF is now calling 911, the guy attacked him and well....he got his ass kicked...and finally does leave with the help of his friend...at this point we think it's over...BF goes home...we had to work, and his dog was there alone.

The next morning right before 6am I hear this POUNDING on the door, it woke me up and scared me to death, I do believe had I not had our security gate locked, they would have kicked in our door, I look out the window and see at least 5 police cars....I throw on a robe and answer the door.....before I could say a word, I was shoved aside, and at least 10 cops start to swarm my house, guns drawn, I just kept asking "What is going on ?" over and over until I am finally told they are looking for my BF for an assult charge, and that the guy was in the hospital ( he turned out to be fine, no permanent damage ) and all charges where dropped against my BF, it was self defence and he had also called 911....but the police didn't want to hear any part of his or my side of the story. Thank God my daughter had decided to go spend the night at her friends, and wasn't home.

1. So that is my first guestion, how were the police allowed to raid my house looking for a person that didn't live there? Why not just ask me if he was there ? Does two men getting in a fight, and one getting more "hurt" warrent this kind of police raid ?

At this point they are demanding I tell them where BF lives, I am not comfortable with doing that at this point, I don't want him to be ambushed, they obviously don't care what the facts are...I keep trying to tell them to let me call BF, he will gladly answer thier questions and cooperate....NOPE.....they just keep demanding I tell them where he lives, and I am now being vague, and truthfully I didn't know his exact address...at this point I grab my cell phone and try and dial my BF, that's where I learned I had NO rights, they took my phone, and forced me to get in the car, in my p.j.'s and show them where he lived.

2. My second question, why were they allowed to take my phone? Why couldn't I call BF? Did I have to go with them and show them where he lived?

I was forced to sit in the car while they went and arrested him, marched him down the street in his boxers only, not even shoes, they let out his dog, and wouldn't let me get out of the car to get her, they wouldn't let me talk to him....it was so awful and heartless...they just let her run down the street after my BF...Thank God one of his neighboors grabbed her..until I could go pick her up....it took 2 days in jail before he ever saw a judge and could be bailed out, money he will never see again, even though all charges were dropped.

3. Why didn't they let him get dressed, he was going with no problems, he was totally cooperating? Why wasn't I allowed to get out of the car and talk to him and get the dog, I wasn't under arrest?

I'm sorry this is such a long post...it was a tramatic experience, and I think an example of how out of control things can become when people are seen as guilty without or before a trial.....

Originally posted by MountainLaurel
The next morning right before 6am I hear this POUNDING on the door, it woke me up and scared me to death, I do believe had I not had our security gate locked, they would have kicked in our door, I look out the window and see at least 5 police cars....I throw on a robe and answer the door.....before I could say a word, I was shoved aside, and at least 10 cops start to swarm my house, guns drawn, I just kept asking "What is going on ?"

IMO that was completely unnecessary - again I am no LEO though. I have only been on military raids but toward the end of my last tour most of our missions changed from kill to capture so essentially they are the same in technique while different in purpose.

An assault charge is a misdemeanor in most jurisdictions unless a weapon was used. Clearly no reason for a pre-dawn raid. A simple knock or phone call even would have sufficed IMO.

However, my guess is that if it was in a large metro area what you experienced was a surge of end of shift boredom release. A lot of cops become cops for the same reason people become Soldiers - they enjoy the rush of adrenaline they get from doing risky things. However, (just like Soldiers) they quickly find that their chosen profession is about 95% boredom and paper work spiced with 3% fun training and 2% actual "action".

So - in the absence of conflict and risk they manufacture it by over-reacting (or in some cases needlessly escalating) everyday interactions with the population. It is tempting I admit especially for the younger Soldiers and Officers as they feel they need to "make a name for themselves" in their community. The older and more senior men usually approach things differently. I was an old team leader in country; having already been a Senior NCO and I never volunteered my team for direct action unless unavoidable but a lot of the younger Captain's did because they wanted to make a name for themselves - I already had a rep so to me it was just unnecessary risk.

Originally posted by MountainLaurel
1. So that is my first question, how were the police allowed to raid my house looking for a person that didn't live there? Why not just ask me if he was there ? Does two men getting in a fight, and one getting more "hurt" warrant this kind of police raid ?

Not at all...

Originally posted by MountainLaurel
At this point they are demanding I tell them where BF lives, I am not comfortable with doing that at this point, I don't want him to be ambushed, they obviously don't care what the facts are...at this point I grab my cell phone and try and dial my BF, that's where I learned I had NO rights, they took my phone, and forced me to get in the car, in my p.j.'s and show them where he lived.

Then you need to get a lawyer - in effect they violated your 5th amendment rights and 4th as well. In effect if they removed you from your home without arresting you or reading you your rights you were kidnapped and need to call the FBI.

Originally posted by MountainLaurel
2. My second question, why were they allowed to take my phone? Why couldn't I call BF? Did I have to go with them and show them where he lived?

Again, they can take your phone while they are there "for their safety" (which is a contrived BS legal reason IMO) because you can tip off the suspect but they can't inspect it or make you call anyone. This may be different in NYC now as I think they have a law that allows them to check a suspect’s cell phone. Caveat that with you were not a suspect.

Originally posted by MountainLaurel
3. Why didn't they let him get dressed, he was going with no problems, he was totally cooperating? Why wasn't I allowed to get out of the car and talk to him and get the dog, I wasn't under arrest?

They were mad they had bad information and since it was 6 AM when they hit your house they all had to work overtime since shift change is at 0700 usually. Now they all will get home late. They are mad so they messed with him because - they can. Again, you were in effect kidnapped. Call the FBI and get a good lawyer. Likely the city would settle for a fair amount just to make it go away. Hell if you want to hire me as an investigator I'll come out there for $100.00 a day plus expenses and get all the statements and get every complaint on every cop there and make them look like the Gestapo to a jury. I think my CA PI license is still valid. I'll have to check. I'll need a lawyer to "work for" though to file the discovery paperwork and check the SOL.

Now I know you won't get them charged with kidnapping but it will scare them enough to settle.

ETA: I am kidding about coming out to CA. My CA PI license is lapsed but seriously you need to have a lawyer on retainer for things like this. Somoene to call while the police are there. Police fear the word lawyer even...

You did at least file a complaint right?

Originally posted by ohioriver
""" If you engage the target in a known "box" (the home) you limit the variables involved. Once loose the subject can do too many things and involve too many other innocents to justify the risk. """"

The above statement is what is wrong with cops these days. Cops should never be militarized. Suspects are not meant to be military targets!

I agree they should not be militarized but my use of the word "engage" was simply meant in the broadest terms meaning "interact with". Even a traffic stop is done in a "box" if multiple cops are involved, as are in person stops with multiple cops they stand on all sides of the suspect. It’s to prevent flight.

Same principle when making an arrest - in a home in the middle of the night they can control all the exits and manage the encounter. It is for their safety and that of everyone in the area.

I didn't mean engagement in military terms of a firefight.

I personally think a no-knock raid should be done only if they suspect is a very violent and presumably armed offender. They use it too much IMO. Which is souring the public to thier role as peace officers.

if you read "Gulag Archipeligo", you will see the same tactics used by Stalin's forces against civilians that are becoming more prevalent in the US. The Soviets didn't want the neighbors to know they were being purged so they would hit the target in the middle of the night and come back for you next week. It appeared they had a quota to fill.

reply to post by Golf66


Thank-You for taking the time to talk through some points with me that have been bothering me for a long time....and I appreciate your kind offer.......at this point in life I only have so much energy...and I don't know that sueing an already bankrupt community is the best use of my time so long after the fact, and living hundreds of miles away now....lol......as I said, where I live now, the cops are nice...and I would rather build better relations with police and military too, for that matter....WE need you guys to be on our side !

I really had only just begun to connect the dots about what was going down in our World in any kind of coherent way 3 yrs. ago, and frankly it took some REALLY BIG events in my personal life...such as the one's I described in this thread, to really help me "define" what I can "offer" to the "Solutions"...I think I can be one of the "Poster Children" for don't think this can't happen to you ! I can appeal to a specific demographic that for the most part has been fairly lucky in life compared to many, and I feel those are important people to reach out to, one of the reasons I still keep FB......I just turned 50yr. old and have had a really great life, I played the "game", raised my Child....now my energy needs to be focused on making sure our / my Children ( my future Grandchildren ) have a fighting chance......

LOL...my Dad always used to joke around and say... "What are they going to do, Kill me?"......well.....that statement doesn't seem so absurd to me anymore....Yeah Pops...maybe?.... I'm a stubborn little Irish / Italian girl, with enough "knowledge" to either be Helpful or "Dangerous"....but I will never willingly remain silient ever again !

reply to post by MountainLaurel

1. So that is my first guestion, how were the police allowed to raid my house looking for a person that didn't live there? Why not just ask me if he was there ? Does two men getting in a fight, and one getting more "hurt" warrent this kind of police raid ?

At this point they are demanding I tell them where BF lives, I am not comfortable with doing that at this point, I don't want him to be ambushed, they obviously don't care what the facts are...I keep trying to tell them to let me call BF, he will gladly answer thier questions and cooperate....NOPE.....they just keep demanding I tell them where he lives, and I am now being vague, and truthfully I didn't know his exact address...at this point I grab my cell phone and try and dial my BF, that's where I learned I had NO rights, they took my phone, and forced me to get in the car, in my p.j.'s and show them where he lived.

The police are allowed to lie to suspects and witnesses to coerce them in talking and giving information. They also use intimidation, threats and fear tactics during their "investigations".

A citizen must know their rights and assert them in the face of police intimidation. The first question a person must ask the police is "am I under arrest". If the police say "no". You have the right to ask them to leave your property.

The police did in fact violate your rights during the incident you described. The police did have an arrest warrant which somewhat gave them the right to search your house. But once the knew that the suspect was not on your property they had no right to make you get into the police car.

Whether you are under arrest or not you always have the right to remain silent. You did not have to go with them. They of course will write in the report that they asked you nicely to go with them and that you agreed.

2. My second question, why were they allowed to take my phone? Why couldn't I call BF? Did I have to go with them and show them where he lived?

I was forced to sit in the car while they went and arrested him, marched him down the street in his boxers only, not even shoes, they let out his dog, and wouldn't let me get out of the car to get her, they wouldn't let me talk to him....it was so awful and heartless...they just let her run down the street after my BF...Thank God one of his neighboors grabbed her..until I could go pick her up....it took 2 days in jail before he ever saw a judge and could be bailed out, money he will never see again, even though all charges were dropped.

Once again, you were intimidated into compliance with their requests. Had you spoke out against their actions, asserted your rights and requested a lawyer. They would have had to try a different approach.

3. Why didn't they let him get dressed, he was going with no problems, he was totally cooperating? Why wasn't I allowed to get out of the car and talk to him and get the dog, I wasn't under arrest?

The police do not care about guilt or innocence when armed with an arrest warrant. Their job is to apprehend and detain the suspect. In their mind they were looking for a violent suspect charged with assault. They are allowed to use their own discretion as to how they wanted to treat the individual once they are in police custody. If they see allowing a suspect to get dressed as an opportunity for the suspect to escape or perhaps acquire a weapon then they just arrest the person with whatever clothes they are in.

The police were jerks when arresting your boyfriend but they were within their legal authority during the course of their actions. However, they did over step their boundries when they coerced you into their vehicle and they did in fact violate your rights. As you were not a suspect and you were not under arrest. You simply a witness in the case and they had no legal right to force you to leave your house after they searched it.

Hello MountainLaurel

I am a medically retired Ca LEO of with just under 14 years on the job working mostly throughout the SF Bay Area and So Cal toward the end of my service. As a Traffic Officer with the CHP most of my experience revolved around standard traffic enforcement, accident investigations, stolen car/DUI task force and commercial traffic details. I think MagicWand67 pretty much nailed it. Seems you were the victim of officers that took advantage of your lack of knowledge of the law which is very common and something that every agency and or P.O.S.T. certification academy teaches officers.

I have known many officers over the years within my agency and many others I am proud to call friends or co workers. However, there is always a percentage out there that are less than honorable and do not deserve the positions they hold. I ran across my share of them in LA while on probation back when the L.A.P.D. and L.A.C.S.O. were in a state of complete lunacy. LA was like the wild west in the early 90's.

For whatever my Two Cents are worth here I think the best advise I could give anyone is take some time to get familiar with the law and how it can effect you when you have any sort of police contact. This may sound a bit weird but do not ever presume that any officer has your best interests in mind, even though we are there to "Protect & Serve" we are also there to observe and enforce to the fullest extent of the law as needed. Officers are trained with the mind set that everyone is probably dirty in some way or other, and it's your duty to root it out and enforce the law should the opportunity legally present itself. As for the original OP human error and bravado etc will always lead to disaster with forced entry as it's a chaotic task at best and probably wont ever go away even though there are certainly better ways for all involved to work around a lot of those operations.

Coming through my door at 4am wont be pretty and many of us will be leaving in bags when I greet them with my Alexander Arms.50 Beowulf which easily converts doors into toothpicks However I live out in the boonies with almost no neighbors so I would probably hear them before they see me. I was raised to stand for what I believe in and will never deviate from that. Life is short,death is inevitable, and if I cant live my life in a way that is true, to myself or my family then there really is no point to being here in this world and its time to move along. If you don't like the way your local law enforcement operates then get involved and speak up about it. Thats your right as a citizen I say exercise it

None of this would be an issue if non-violent crimes werent met with violence from law enforcement. Or better yet, non-violent crimes werent crimes at all.

The door smashing nonsense serves no purpose other than to escalate the violence.

Casting aside all of the wrong address raids and assuming the police actually do their due diligence they know where the target lives, they have surveiled the targets behavior and can at any time approach the target outside of the home and take him/her into custody.

There is no good justification for kicking in doors. None. It's a tactic developed not to keep officers safe or to capture dangerous people. It's sole purpose is to frighten onlookers into a submissive psychological state and artificially pump the egos of a militarized police force.

Candycab is right in his approach. Right now it's a game for them. When their bodies start stacking deep and wide the game wont be fun anymore. You know no family or friend will be kicking your door down and sending a wall of lead toward the noise is not only the appropriate reaction but a required reaction.

We're inundated everyday with "keep our police safe" propaganda. I wonder how many cops actually ask themselves if what they are about to do is worth the risk they are taking? Some pot grower worth your kid growing up without a dad? Some perv downloading images worth making your wife a 30 year old widow?

These arent time-pressing hostage situations. Raids and assaults are absurd. Funny enough when it is a time-pressing hostage situation they sit back and wait outside.