The First Synod of ATS: The Gospel of Thomas

It has been suggested by Adjensen

Perhaps we should convene an ATS research team to go through Thomas, line by line, in an attempt to discern what's what.

So my friends, I welcome you to the First Synod of ATS...

Here we will discuss the contents of The Gospel of Thomas, and how the sayings within the book relate to the Jesus known within the Gospels of the bible...

The Gospel of Thomas

Since its discovery its the validity of this book has been debated... the dating of what exists is speculated to be anywhere between 40 CE and 350CE, though most are in favor of a later dating. Though many of the verses are strikingly similar to what is found in the gospels of the bible.

My personal opinion is that Thomas is a book of collected sayings directly from the followers of Jesus... mainly because I have problems with believing a man that had literally thousands of followers, only 3 of them were smart enough to write something down about him...

Perhaps the Author wasn't Thomas the disciple... but how many books within the bible are from unknown authors?

Lets take a look at a few of the parallels between Thomas and the rest of the biblical Gospels...

Thomas 1
1 And He said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death."

John 8:51
Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death."

~

Thomas 2
Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

In the gospels it is repeatedly said people were astonished by the doctrine of Jesus... and some were troubled, for example the man who was told to sell all of this things and "follow me"... and some that came to understand his words eventually "ruled over their own congregation.

~

Thomas 3
Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."


Matthew 6 (The creatures will precede you)
Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?


Luke 17 (inside YOU)
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 11 (Outside YOU)
40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?

John 10 (children of the Father)
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
(referenceing Psalm 82)
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

~

Thomas 4
The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will live. For many who are first will become last, and they will become one and the same."

Matthew 18:4
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

~

Thomas 4
Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest."

Matthew 10
So have no fear of them; for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.

Mark 4
21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?

22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

Luke 12
Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.

~

Thomas 6
Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered."

Matthew 19
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness

Other reference covered in Thomas 5

Thomas 7
Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

Jesus is called the Lion in some sects of Christianity... the son of God who became a man... And Jesus' words "consumed" those who did not understand him... so to speak.

John 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

~

Thomas 8
And He said, "The Kingdom is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of small fish. Among them the wise fisherman found a fine large fish. He threw all the small fish back into the sea and chose the large fish without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."

(reference the parable of the precious pearl)

Matthew 13
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

**********************************************************

That is only the first 8 sayings within Thomas...

Only a few hundred left...

The parallels within all five of these texts are astounding, but some are vague, and others require a deeper understanding of what Jesus said within the Gospels...

And while they are not first hand testimonies as the gospels may be... I believe without a doubt that there is a definite connection between Thomas and the Jesus that walked the earth 2000 years ago...

This discussion is officially open to anyone who is interested in this text... but please refrain from comments unless you have something to add to the discussion of the topic, so as not to derail this thread.

It is preferred that any contributors to this thread MUST have read Thomas at least once

Please leave bias comments and trolling efforts at the door...

Thanks for reading...

To be continued when I have more time...

Good thread.

Heres something from the link you posted

77 Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

Sounds a lot like the "everywhere and in everything" philosophy, doesn't it?

reply to post by Akragon


I'm really glad you made this thread, and am looking forward to reading additional posts from other members too! I was following the "Judas" thread, feeling some angst and frustration with the ignorance of gnosticism and it's place in the gospels along with the Essenes and their contributions.

I'm fairly busy with work and don't really have the time to do the research to contribute, right now, but I will be checking in to follow the discussion.

Starred and flagged!

I ran across various interpretations of some of the gospel of Thomas a while back. It was strange how people interpreted it so differently. I thought about it for a while and reread the interpretations again and they still varied the same. Interpretation is based on what we know and believe. The same sentence can mean different things to different people and sometimes the same sentence can mean something different to me at a later time.

If you don't want to see differences in the text by different writers of the New Testement than you won't. I personally see some differences in meaning, meaning that each writer of the texts saw things a little differently also. We haven't changed as much as we think in the last two thousand years.

Always thought the gospel of Thomas more gnostic than the Bible.

Here are just a couple of verses that make you go ...hmmm.

15) Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your Father."

I know of no one in history or mythology who was not born of a woman but perhaps someone else does.

Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the things which he told me, you will pick up stones and throw them at me; a fire will come out of the stones and burn you up."

link
Now to what could he be referring here? I have my thoughts but could be totally wrong.

Thomas is full of things that require deeper thoughts and perhaps a better understanding of history.

I'll chime in with an explanation of my original suggestion, which was in response to my friend EightBits' comment that Thomas should bear some serious consideration.

Thomas is a forgery. Here is my two years old thread on the text: Early Christian Heresy: Document Forgery and the Problem of The Gospel of Thomas. It contains sayings of Jesus that he probably did say, some he might have said, and a lot that he definitely did not say (from an orthodox perspective -- from a Gnostic perspective, he would be claimed to have said it all.)

The intriguing thing about Thomas is that it may very well contain sayings of Christ that are closer to his actual words than the canonical Gospels present, as well as sayings that are authentic, but not in the canonical Gospels. The downside is that Thomas clearly contains sayings of Christ that are not authentic, because they reflect a theology that didn't exist until over a hundred years after his death, and so we're left wondering about the "middle ground", the sayings that he might have said but aren't otherwise written.

Did he say them? Are they Second Century creations?

That, to me, is the interesting question about Thomas. The clearly Gnostic stuff, who cares, it is obviously inserted after the fact. But what about the rest of it?

Therein lies our quest.

reply to post by Akragon


Do you want to use the Nag Hammadi references "The book of Thomas the Contender" (11.7) or the "Gospel of Thomas" (11.2)? Line by line, trying to decifer this text; as I see it the most interesting provocative MMA fighter equivilent (of interest): Enoch. This could be fun (not for scripture haters) but its not exactly scripture is it. LEFT OUT provocative commentary WAS EDITED forgotten until 'surprise' was dug up as dead sea scrolls (the Essenses LIVED in Qumran and left records of their existance).

reply to post by Akragon and adjensen

Dear Akragon and adjensen,

You must know how much I respect both of you. Relying on your good judgment, I read it twice.

I tried, really, I tried. Cross my heart tried. I guess I don't have enlightenment.

Why are these "secret sayings" when it looks like half or more have been plagarized from the Gospels? For that matter, why call it a Gospel at all? And what do we do with these verses?

12 The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?"

Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

14 Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits.

114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

And who is James the Just that he is so key? (Yes, I know his history) The name "James" is mentioned twice in the four Gospels, but nothing is said about him.

I know I sound thick-headed, but why should I believe it's giving me something new, true, and important?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by liveandlearn


I think John hints at what Jesus meant by this.

John 3
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

The one who isn't born from a woman is the Spirit, because flesh only gives birth to flesh. The Spirit is within all of us.

Thomas 4
Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest."

God is supposedly invisible right? To see the invisible, you must see what is in your sight. To see the light is to see god, though most do not realize it. We are ALL intimately connected to god, whether we believe it or not.

I look forward to the discussion, S&F OP.

reply to post by charles1952


Charles its not gospel (why being called it no idea), thats the beauty of it-its poetry its truth and not the Matthew, Mark, Luke and Johns verbatum march step to "we all wrote the exact same thing", and no one caught it.

reply to post by charles1952

Why are these "secret sayings" when it looks like half or more have been plagarized from the Gospels?

Perhaps the people that wrote them knew the gospels?

And technically they were buried in a cave... Obviously hidden from someone...

The church did kinda try to purge the world of gnostic writing... and people...

12 The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?"

Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

Perhaps this is in favor of an earlier dating?

He was a leader in the church before his death...

James

14 Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits.

I have to wonder if this is authentic, who was Jesus talking to when he said it?

IF he knew the hearts of all men, maybe he was speaking to a group lacking a "true heart" so to speak...

Im reminded of Matthew 6

114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

There was clearly an anti-female thing going around at that time... Thoughout biblical times, before and after women haven't had equality... and there are lots of references in gnostic material that say "make the female into male"

Then again, perhaps in the afterlife we are not male or female...

how about a vague reference...

Matthew 22?

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

where they try to trick Jesus, and he still gives an answer?

Greetings, Akragon

Adj made his proposal in the context of the Jesus Seminar analysis of Thomas. Their results are available here

www.webpages.uidaho.edu...

If anybody is interested in Thomas, or wishes to contibute to the thread, but hasn't read Thomas in a while, the document is very readable.

The Jesus Seminar analysis is phrase-by-phrase, finer grained than verse-by-verse, and is reported in the pdf by color coding the text:

Red = Jesus undoubtedly said this or something like this,
Pink = Jesus probably said something like this,
Blue = Jesus did not say this, but the ideas contained in it are close to his own, and
Black = Jesus did not say this; it represents the perspective or content of a later or different tradition.

Material in the author's voice ("Jesus said..." or "His disciples asked him...") is black. I'll just ignore that material altogether in what follows. (However, when we get to 113, which is a chief "money verse" of this gospel, to whom the remarks were supposedly addressed is a material part of reconciling Thomas to the canon.) It was my understanding of adj's idea that the phrase-by-phrase assessment be retained, since the versification isn't in the original text. It was added later for convenience, and does not reflect any judgment of equally reliable chunks.

You have looked at the first 8 verses (only 106 to go); here's what JS found:

1: Black (not authentic Jesus)

2: Black except "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find," which is pink (probably Jesus-y)

3: Black except "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,'
then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish
will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you," which is blue (close to Jesus, but not his).

4: Black, except "For many of the first will be last," which is pink.

5: (which you skipped, apparently inadvertantly) Blue: "Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you." Pink: "For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed." (There is a textual variant ending, which is black).

6: similar to 5, black except close paraphrases of what's blue and pink in 5.

7 and 8: Black, except "Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!," which is blue.

And they found nothing in these verses which is red, something at least close to something Jesus "undoubtedly" said. In fact there isn't much in red. I think just the following:

20 (part): "It's like a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, but when it falls on prepared soil, it produces a large plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky."

54: "Congratulations to the poor, for to you belongs Heaven's kingdom."

100 (part): "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God,"

However, a lot of the pink is very close to things you'll find in the canonical Gospels. Part of the explanation for the "discrepancy" is that the Jesus Seminar consensus doubted or hedged whether all the sayings canonically attributed to Jesus were authentic. In some cases, where there are alternative incompatible versions of a saying in the canon, this is understandable. In other cases, this practice helps explain the jaundiced view adj has of the group.

I think the differences between your results and JS' illustrate two things: the importance of phrase-by-phrase examination, rather than verse-by-verse, and that you would be fairly liberal compared with the median Jesus Seminar voter.

reply to post by eight bits

5: (which you skipped, apparently inadvertantly) Blue: "Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you." Pink: "For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed." (There is a textual variant ending, which is black).

LOL... whups

Let see...

Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you...

Techncally IF this is Jesus wouldn't he be telling whoever he was speaking to KNOW him?

Kinda like this?

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


And...

Mark 4
22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

or Luke 12

In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

reply to post by eight bits


The Jesus Seminar folk are Gnostics. Not too surprising they would affirm Gnostic works of literature.

Akragon

Let see...

Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you...

Techncally IF this is Jesus wouldn't he be telling whoever he was speaking to KNOW him?

First, as an illustration of the method:

That's from verse 5, and JS voted it "Jesus did not say this, but the ideas contained in it are close to his own" (blue text in the pdf). So, while thinking about that, they would consider verses like your Matthew 11: 29-30, how "close" it is to the Thomas phrase, how authentic they think the canonical verses are, and any other information they might have. Then they would vote, and there was a peculiar rule for combining the individual votes into a group finding.

Compare another part of the same verse, for which you were able to find closer canonical parallels. Unsurprisingly, that phrase got a higher rating from the group, "Jesus probably said something like this" (pink text in the pdf).

Second, all-caps KNOWing: If that's a reference to the name "Gnostic" meaning somebody who knows, just "knowing something" hardly distinguishes among creedal faiths. They all teach something to be true; if you belong, then you know that, whatever it happens to be.

The extinct religions called "Gnostic," some branches of which had a Jesus knock-off, involved knowing something specific to that religion. So informed, the knower could ascend to the Gnostic uber-God. More or less - adj has, no doubt, fainted dead away at my terse explanation.

NotUrTypical

Although I am not here to represent the Jesus Seminar, I doubt that there are any livng Gnostics at all, in the sense of adherents of the religion that produced the Coptic Thomas.

In this particular case, I would propose that by their fruits you should know them. All the egregious Gnostic stuff is black; all the red and pink is defensible as at worst a perspective or paraphrase of things found in the canonical Gospels.

The effect of the JS's work in this case, then, is to scrape away the Gnostic accretions. I think that that definition of a "core" is a necessary step to launch a search for the possibly First Century, proto-orthodox - dare I say apostolic? - ur-Thomas, if there was such a thing and which, at least for now, is among the lost.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by eight bits

 

The Jesus Seminar folk are Gnostics. Not too surprising they would affirm Gnostic works of literature.

Actually, as EightBits pointed out, they are surprisingly critical of Thomas, even if they do consider it a "Fifth Gospel". The reason for their criticism, of course, is that they're pretty dang critical of the four canonical Gospels. So in looking at what their conclusions are, one has to bear in mind that they already dismiss a lot of the New Testament as "embellishments" and things that Jesus most certainly did not say.


reply to post by charles1952

I know I sound thick-headed, but why should I believe it's giving me something new, true, and important?

Charles, I would suggest that you check out my old thread on Thomas (linked above) for the answer, but in a nutshell, the interesting thing about the text for an orthodox Christian such as you or I is that the parts which are common to it and the canonical Gospels are unlikely plagiarized, but more likely reflect a source (which is not Thomas, this is unlikely the original sayings gospel) that is earlier than any of it, and which was also used by the authors of M, M, L & J. Because these are simply sayings, not sayings tucked into stories, it is also likely that they are closer to what Jesus actually said -- little or no author embellishment.

In addition, although Thomas is stuffed with things that Jesus certainly did not say (again, from an orthodox standpoint,) it has some intriguing sayings that are not in the four Gospels, but that he might have said, so there may be some nuggets in there that give us new insights into Christ. Unfortunately, there is no seeming way to determine if he really did say them, so it's a bit of an impasse.

Originally posted by Akragon
Lets take a look at a few of the parallels between Thomas and the rest of the biblical Gospels...

Thomas 1
1 And He said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death."

John 8:51
Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death."

This is a good example of how the biases that we have will affect how we view this text. For me, this is not a parallel, but rather a stark contrast.

What do they have in common? The promise of salvation, caged in the "escape death" bit -- both Gnostics and Christians believe that the body dies, but that the spirit can "live". This, of course, is not exclusive to the Gnostics and Christians, it is a generally held view of most religions, so we can't look at that bit and come to any conclusions.

So, what do they not have in common? The process that one must follow in order to not die. In John, that process is by doing what Jesus tells you to do -- follow his commandments (love God, love your neighbour). You don't have to figure anything out, you don't have to study anything. Just do what he told you. Thomas, on the other hand, is exactly the opposite -- salvation comes from studying Christ's words and figuring out what they mean. By that statement, you don't even have to do anything, just correctly interpret the sayings in the text.

That is one of the fundamental contrasts between Christianity and Gnostic Christianity -- in the former, you are saved by what you do (considering that belief in Christ is an action,) while in the latter, you are saved by what you know.

I can conclusively say that Christ did not say Thomas 1.

reply to post by Akragon



Excellent thread Akragon S+F

The objection that is often raised, by those who reject the Gospel of Thomas, is that Jesus taught nothing in secret. But I think this has been greatly misunderstood.

For example, in Matthew 23: 10-13 Jesus teaches the disciples in secret himself…

Matthew 23: verses 10-13
“The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.”

Makes perfect logical sense, that Jesus secret teachings, would be less well known, than others, which he spoke about more openly etc…

And with that said…now for a few comparison verses…

Gospel of Thomas verse 10
(10) Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and see, I am guarding it until it blazes."

Matthew 10:34
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

And…

Gospel of Thomas verse 16
Jesus said, "Men think, perhaps, that it is peace which I have come to cast upon the world. They do not know that it is dissension which I have come to cast upon the earth: fire, sword, and war. For there will be five in a house: three will be against two, and two against three, the father against the son, and the son against the father. And they will stand solitary."

Luke 12:51-52
51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three.

- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
The objection that is often raised, by those who reject the Gospel of Thomas, is that Jesus taught nothing in secret.

Actually, no.

The objection raised on that basis is not that Jesus didn't teach anything in secret, because he did, but whether he taught the means of salvation in secret. If he did, then the answers are not in the Bible, and are not available to anyone who cannot obtain them from a Gnostic guru. Which, 1800 years on, is everyone, because the real Gnosis couldn't be written down and the last person who supposedly knew it died a very long time ago.

Christianity -- salvation for anyone who wants it
Gnosticism -- salvation only for those who convince someone who has the Gnosis to reveal it

Originally posted by liveandlearn

15) Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your Father."

I know of no one in history or mythology who was not born of a woman but perhaps someone else does.

macbeth was fearless as it was foretold to him that no man of woman born could harm him.
macduff did mortally wound him in the end, informing his victim before that end that
he was not of woman born, but plucked as it were from his dying mothers womb.

i joke with my own son sometimes that he wasn't born, but plucked, after
his mother had a cesarean section. interesting terminology here, no?
(all bow to or hail caeser, render unto caeser..and all that.)

i do prostrate myself before and worship my child though. it does make strange sense
to me to say and understand that he is my father and i am his son.