Russia agrees with US on N. Korea, but warns against military drills

reply to post by heretic013


Under Yeltsin, former SU states readily gave nukes back, but like you said, they still posessed that tech, from enrichment to miniturisation.

Today, Emperor Putin rules. He had changed many of the democratic laws almost back to soviet era times. What else will the Emperor do? He supported slaughter in Syria. He supported the Islamic terrorist leader whom had slaughtered the children of Beslan to became a head of state. These are not confidence building measures of a powerful neighbour to the newly democratic ex SU states.

Emperor Putin is no fool. After demogoguery using the poor to elevate the communists to power in 1917 and saw it crumbling, he knows playing to the poor is not an effective tool.

There is another choice to rule a country, and that is to use the rich through corruption to control the masses.

This is what Putin is doing, for he believes that with his current oil wealth, hands on the tap, and buying off the elites of leaders in both his country and ex SU states, he will ultimately regain control of the soviet empire, through a form of perverted unregulated capitalist means.

It is all but a pipe dream as one day soon, energy costs will spiral down as more countries realizes that they have such deposit bounties under their own land and will not need to buy from Russia. Even China knows that the panderings to the rich elities using corruption as an inducement will not work in the long run, thus their current crackdown on it.

When his gas deposits do not bring enough wealth to buy off others, what will this growing senile old ex KGB agent do to remain in control?

Furthermore the ex SU states are not uneducated peasants of yesterday in our world of instant information whereby nothing can be easily hidden anymore. How long will corruption work when it is discovered, as happened in Greece and Cyprus? The masses trusted them, and today they are in this mess due to corruption. Ex SU state citizens will wake up or have to wake up one day too, to see the russian game being played, not to their interest, but only for the interest of the elite few.

Returning back to this thread, Russia is free to walk out of UN if it choses to, if it disagrees with the need to take NK to task. Doing that they will lose the veto right, and without Russia throwing hissy fits, things will be easier done by UN.

Russia cannot hope to have it both ways. Either they support UN or they do not. It is in their interest too to see that NK be held accountable. Russia too have trade in the far east and influences to peddle, and will not want it mired in conflict instead of prosperity.

Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandy

Originally posted by CALGARIAN
So, how?

Ask US and SK to put away all their toys and weapons so NK has the aggressive advantage?

No. He didn't say that.

What he said, and it was true even before this whole thing started, is that offensive military drills are unnecessary and can cause more damage than good.

Flying B-2's and B-52's over South Korea, while also stating that they can just turn right/left and hit North Korea, isn't being very pro-peace.

In my perspective, Putin just stated the obvious. You can have your defenses, as long as you don't go poke North Korea in the eye with it. They are loud mouths by nature, this sort of play only makes it worst.

The US&Allies could just have the defenses deployed, and just ignore - in public - what North Korea is doing.

edit on 10-4-2013 by GarrusVasNormandy because: (no reason given)

I remember when President Polk wanted to add California territory to the union. It happened to belong to Mexico and we were not at war with Mexico so what did he do? He sent the US army down to the newly independent territory of Texas and disputed where the actual border of Texas and Mexico was.

Polk claimed it was at the Rio Grand so he parked the army right there. Mexico, of course disputed this and eventually the Mexican government was forced to respond to this incursion by the US Army on their land. As soon as the first shot was fired, Polk got his war, an easy victory, and about 40% of Mexico territory which by the way, he was subsequently censured by the US Congress for provoking a war.

Doesn't flying B-52's next to NK's border have a similar ring to it as Putin kind of alludes to?

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101


Nobody in the east and the west wants war, except NK today. Everyone only seeks for peace and prosperity.

BUT the minute Fatboy Kim's missles lift off the ground, all gloves are off, for the safety of all.

I am afraid the MSM has misled you and inundated you with cliche and and a aura of naivety.

The way people create nicknames in a derogatory manner for Kim, who for all I know is an actor/puppet nobody just a face to scream get mad at ala 1984. It just feels very 1984-ish you know? To scream at the face, call him funny names etc? Sure makes us feel good and justified and noble!

Reality is far harsher and darker than what you choose to see.

In the real world, tons of people want war. All my buddies that joined the military in High school, said they wanted to legally get to kill people and get paid for it at the same time. They were stoked. Sadly one died, but that's how it goes right?

Even on ATS, tons of pro-war posts are abounding. Most rely on excuses or some sort of reasoning to call for conflict, however many others don't bother and just say nuke em.

There are so many pro war voices, especially in our media. Our corporations want in that NK market after all. Our military needs a reason to exist and to beg for even more trillions $$$. They need a crisis to keep people pacified and distracted so they can milk us longer and so the tax crunch won't bite so badly. Plus countless other ways this benefits the power structure and is a detriment to the common peoples.

reply to post by muzzleflash


There is a difference between wanting war and defending one's country and allies.

Fatboy Kim proves the example of those wanting war, while USA and SK are the ones whom do not desire war, but will not hesitate to use it as an option to defend their country and allies.

The irony of peace is that you MUST be AT ALL TIMES prepared for war to defend. That's what la-la land anti-war fanatics failed to comprehend or refused to comprehend ALL THE TIME.

Respect can only be earned and never freely given. Do I respect NK's leader? Most certainly not as he had proven NOTHING worthy to be respected, and only to be derided ALL THE TIME at every opportunity for his insane thermonuclear threats to our world

So do keep your personal beliefs to yourself and deal with realities instead. Too much tinkering on the twilight zone will only get you set up in a mental institute.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


Fairly accurate assessment of Putin and his motives.

Putin, being a very successful ex-KGB agent is no fool and I have no doubt he has an expansionist policy in the works. I would bet that after this NK issue blows over that the next major moves we see will be from Russia, not China or the SE Asian territories.

Putin doesn't really need to worry about the UN because their power is being stripped away almost daily and that whole organization does not have the clout it did in its first 20 years. Nations are becoming less and less willing to support it with funding or troops, its becoming more of an economic tool rather than anything that carries a threat of war.

In particular, we can see Russia making moves in regards to Estonia, Lativa, and Lithuania both politically by injecting themselves into the political process, and economically, by trying to sabotage their relationships with each other and the UN. Their control of the gas in that region, as well as the heavy population centers of Russians mean that they have considerable influence.

I theorize that these three nations are the main targets of Putin and will be the first to fall back under a Soviet sphere of influence.

Originally posted by Hopechest

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

I guess I misinterpreted this statement by you;

I don't believe the NK lies.

Not sure how I could have got that one wrong.

I'll rephrase:

I Don't believe the media, especially about NK.
As any sensible rational person with a memory longer than a day should.

With all due respect, if you were to research the history of NK since WWII you would see that their actions today are not out of line with their behavior over the last 60 years or so. They have been consistent.

This has nothing to do with what the MSM is reporting, it is part of the historical record. Even prior to the Korean War when Kim was trying to gain permission from Stalin to begin the war, you can see his use of propaganda and threats to try and make the situation more serious than it actually was.

He conducted this rhetoric, mostly aimed at regional governments, not the US, for almost 3 years before Stalin finally gave him the go ahead to invade the South.

Your misguided attempt at somehow debunking my post(?) actually ends up revealing my point and underlining and bolding it.

That NK is under the control of outside powerful influences and it doesn't take actions without getting the go ahead from their sugar daddy.

Thank you for helping me reveal to everyone how historically speaking, NK being a puppet is not out of the question and it begs the question, what was really going on during the meetings between North Korean reps and US Govt reps through the infamous "New York Channel" ? Since there is no recordings, how do we know that the US Govt didn't request this current outburst of saber rattling and offer payment for services/or threatened penalties (or something similar)?

And I am not saying that it was or is the US who per se controls NK politically, because I am under the impression the US is also controlled by a globalist organization called the United Nations apparatus. Through money of course as mentioned above google Bank of International Settlements /World Bank / International Monetary Fund.

The myth is that the US governs the UN, but that's false because it's the BIS that set the standards globally. Works like this =

BIS > WB > Federal Reserve (Central banks) > Corporate/private banks
Where does the US Govt come into this? No where? Exactly.
Unless the system is threatened of course, than the enforcer, the US/State/County/City Govt, will be called in to take care of the trouble physically w/their manpower and resources.

Point is, if I were to actually point at an entity and claim it were behind this entire farce , the North Korea crisis, I would point directly at the United Nations for thousands of reasons, like you said many historical in nature.

The UN claims to want to stop/prevent war, but reality is that war is just as continuous and numerous as it was before the UN, they just have better control over it now and can pick and choose who to let die and who to save. Africa is a great example, although we can find many worldwide that show this same story.

In many ways, the UN's actions through it's many organizations and partners, facilitates and provokes wars wherever possible, by making sure the media organizations continue with divisive rhetoric full of hate and lies (which are controlled by respective member nations' or partner corporations), creating economic incentives for buying military hardware or for specific political reforms against their will, etc.

The issue is so overwhelmingly complex and multi-faceted that anyone who can question things will realize the issue is far more nuanced than what the msm narrative is.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Kind of a different slant on what Russia sez:

Alexei Pushkov, the head of the State Duma committee for international affairs, said on Saturday that North Korean leader Kim Jong-un hardly wants any war.

“North Korea’s threats are meant to send a signal to the United States to leave it alone but if it overplays its hand, no one will be able to protect it… Young Kim Jong-un hardly wants war, he has a beautiful wife and big plans. He wants to preserve his country and power but is playing a dangerous game,” Pushkov wrote on his Twitter.

en.rian.ru...

Sometimes "leave me alone" is a dangerous game to play.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101


There is a difference between wanting war and defending one's country and allies.

Fatboy Kim proves the example of those wanting war, while USA and SK are the ones whom do not desire war, but will not hesitate to use it as an option to defend their country and allies.

Wrong clearly,

The USA always loves to go to war even for no reason. If no reason exists, we fabricate it.

Ever heard of the Invasion of Iraq to stop Hussein from making WMD? Because he was stockpiling them ?
Except when we got there the historians were proved correct that all of his stockpiles of chemical weapons were destroyed at the end of the first Gulf conflict?

Don't remember this? It's glaring proof that the US and the media will lie to no end, will condemn anyone questioning it, ridicule them as unpatriotic, when in reality it's all war mongering for profit and to "Control our Hearts and Minds". They admitted it up front what the goal is to do.

Control everyone's hearts and minds.

I cannot believe you just asserted to me that the US isn't into the concept of preemptive war, or willing to make surprise invasions without provocation. Because it only happened a few years ago...Iraq...

reply to post by muzzleflash


I agree w/ all your posts. I've had my suspicions on N.Korea for many years.
Now with the recent secretive "New York Channel" being paraded around, I believe its safe to say that you're on to something.

Perhaps you should think about creating a thread on this very topic because you bring forth good points & arguments. . .


Keep standing your ground.

reply to post by Hopechest

I remember when President Polk wanted to add California territory to the union. It happened to belong to Mexico and we were not at war with Mexico so what did he do? He sent the US army down to the newly independent territory of Texas and disputed where the actual border of Texas and Mexico was.

Polk claimed it was at the Rio Grand so he parked the army right there. Mexico, of course disputed this and eventually the Mexican government was forced to respond to this incursion by the US Army on their land. As soon as the first shot was fired, Polk got his war, an easy victory, and about 40% of Mexico territory which by the way, he was subsequently censured by the US Congress for provoking a war.

Yes, but things are very different now.

Back then, a single person, president, general or whatever, could actually make a difference. For the good and the bad.

Now things are way too complex. A decision doesn't go through one person, or one person can't really be 100% independent. I'm not talking about gathering support for war, but the internal side of taking those actions.

I'm not an apologist of pointing fingers at the U.S. for that sort of stand. All I know is that most people would do exactly the same stuff politicians do, if they were in there.

Doesn't flying B-52's next to NK's border have a similar ring to it as Putin kind of alludes to?

To me it looks like a wolf showing some teeth, but not bitting.

I don't agree with it, I believe this is all unnecessary, and there are a lot more important things to be concerned about than nuclear-genitals and their owners. But Putin is right. This stand looks peaceful because we were used to the U.S. going into Afghanistan and Iraq at the same time, but it isn't. It's very...uneasy.

reply to post by muzzleflash

That NK is under the control of outside powerful influences and it doesn't take actions without getting the go ahead from their sugar daddy.

I agree.

Proof of that is the fact that North Korea doesn't have........well, anything. That place is like a theatrical hell on Earth, and they are heavily dependent on peripheral - and friendly - countries like China and Russia. It's a survival matter.

Which makes me feel funny because that idea means that someone actually wants to start something against the West, from the other side... *spooky sounds*