Self-Esteem, Love, and Society

You will hear so many people say, 'nobody can love you until you love yourself.' That is completely wrong. It takes a small amount of time and energy to teach a person who is unfamiliar with love than to actually give a person love. You will hear much less people say, 'why don't self-centered individuals love other people they don't know in society?' Maybe it is a general rule not to trust anybody in the world so respect is cut off from the start, and only those individuals who gain the respect are worthy of that shown. That proves why the world cannot live together in harmony because everyone will not want to show each other respect in the direct communication of society.

Most of us struggle to maintain a sense of compassion and understanding toward others. Self-centered people, on the other hand, don’t bother to take the time to understand another person’s point-of-view or feelings.

A Texas corporation told its employees to look in the mirror and say 'I am beautiful' 100 times before coming to work. In contrast, a Japanese supermarket instructed its employees to begin their day by telling each other 'you are beautiful.' Our current culture not only supports, but requests that individuals put themselves and their own happiness first. According to Mark Drummond, a psychologist who specializes in personality disorders, “being ‘self caring’ is considered healthy, but many mistake that for being self-centered. Self caring means that you have concern for others, but not at the expense of yourself. Those of today’s generation have taken it to an unprecedented level and seem to take pride in being self-centered and for caring only about their needs and wants.”
www.lifescript.com...

Love is far different than arrogance, yet some perceive this way of thought reflecting on themselves and others is a way of attention, hence a way of love, but they completely forget about the ego in relationship to emotion. The ego may say 'if this person is not happy it is because they do not love themselves.' The thing making them happy is sarcasm which is a rejection of real emotion in order to make light of it. Self-esteem is understanding the root cause of emotions. So it is a cycle of what limits people from understanding how to love each other. Childhood experiences are directly associated with self-esteem. That means that other people who say that people cannot be loved until they love themselves are just causing them to have less self-esteem, that the only way for a person to gain real self-esteem is by having love taught to them.

Experiences that contribute to healthy self-esteem include:
Being listened to
Being spoken to respectfully
Getting appropriate attention and affection
Having accomplishments be recognized and mistakes or failures be acknowledged and accepted

I am wondering if these traits are very important for society on a daily basis.

reply to post by greyer

Thank you, very well done and important thread. It strikes a chord with me. Unfortunately, it's a chord that is watching the clock approach midnight. I'll be back tomorrow. I hope a lot of people see and comment on this thread.

Experiences that contribute to healthy self-esteem include:
Being listened to
Being spoken to respectfully
Getting appropriate attention and affection
Having accomplishments be recognized and mistakes or failures be acknowledged and accepted



I am wondering if these traits are very important for society on a daily basis.

Why do you think people go to ATS? Or any social media really...

Do you hear me?
Probably best to have some respect, everyone's looking
Seeking attention, many affection
Stars and Flags, deny the ignorant, T&C's

I'd say the time spent by people on Social Media sites proves that these traits are important in society, or we wouldn't do them. Maybe I'm wrong

Originally posted by greyer

A Texas corporation told its employees to look in the mirror and say 'I am beautiful' 100 times before coming to work. In contrast, a Japanese supermarket instructed its employees to begin their day by telling each other 'you are beautiful.' Our current culture not only supports, but requests that individuals put themselves and their own happiness first. According to Mark Drummond, a psychologist who specializes in personality disorders, “being ‘self caring’ is considered healthy, but many mistake that for being self-centered. Self caring means that you have concern for others, but not at the expense of yourself. Those of today’s generation have taken it to an unprecedented level and seem to take pride in being self-centered and for caring only about their needs and wants.”
www.lifescript.com...

U.S.A.: Love yourself as you want to be loved by yourself *Egoistic, self-centered
Japan: Love others as you want to be loved by yourself

I think many psychological complexes are born when one draws all the attention to oneself instead of outward. One focuses all thoughts upon him/herself, crippling the heart.

Very good thread.

Originally posted by Angle

Originally posted by greyer

A Texas corporation told its employees to look in the mirror and say 'I am beautiful' 100 times before coming to work. In contrast, a Japanese supermarket instructed its employees to begin their day by telling each other 'you are beautiful.' Our current culture not only supports, but requests that individuals put themselves and their own happiness first. According to Mark Drummond, a psychologist who specializes in personality disorders, “being ‘self caring’ is considered healthy, but many mistake that for being self-centered. Self caring means that you have concern for others, but not at the expense of yourself. Those of today’s generation have taken it to an unprecedented level and seem to take pride in being self-centered and for caring only about their needs and wants.”
www.lifescript.com...

U.S.A.: Love yourself as you want to be loved by yourself *Egoistic, self-centered
Japan: Love others as you want to be loved by yourself

I think many psychological complexes are born when one draws all the attention to oneself instead of outward. One focuses all thoughts upon him/herself, crippling the heart.

Very good thread.

In fact, there's a huge difference between the Texan an Japanese approach and have got nothing to do with eachother. The philosophies behind them differ completely from eachother. There's a healthy approach and a devastating one. With the Texan approach you are asking yourself something you already do. Our mental condition is confused about ourselves. How have we been structurised?

We attained a complete confusing mindset. Making us morons with no sense of self, yet a small change of it affects our mind in a huge way. The I is sending the mind warnings for it's approach to itself. You can choose for your ego and mind to be balanced in a healthy way, or with the I sending corrections to your mind.

Or is the I confused, then this must be because of our chackral conditions. *Adjust.

The I and mind are always in balance, yet with or without strings. It obviously is better without.

This picture can be seen symbolic for the condition between the I and the mind with strings attached (without strings attached, there would be no smaller white and black dot in the picture) The dots symbolise errors. Yet the dots also symbolise, I don't know. But the I and the mind are always in balance.

reply to post by greyer


No, that is completely true. If you don't love yourself, you are not only incapable, but undeserving, of love.

Everything starts at the core; where you go is where you are. How can you possibly love another person if you don't love yourself? How could you even know what love is if you don't love yourself?

Also, feeding someone's ego does not build self-esteem; it builds ego. Self-esteem is very hard to attain. If you are unsure of yourself and you need other people to constantly validate your existence, then sorry, but you don't have any self-esteem.

Self-esteem is blissful indifference; extreme self-love. It is not arrogance, but rather just valuing your opinion of yourself over the opinions that others have of you. It is understanding that perception is reality and choosing to manipulate perception of yourself to change your reality.

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy


Love is the power to change.

I think you brush a few different angles on the subject of love that could be delved into, for example the difference between love as a subjective experience (something you feel inside for someone) and love as an objective experience (something the other can experience and know through your actions).
There is a lot that can be said on that.

- And learning how to love, that is another thing.. (can you love anyone, even self, if no one has ever loved you?).

But in particular when it comes to sefl love equalling love for other, what I observe is this-

It all depends upon the person's identification of self. If a person identifies and relates to the exterior and others (without a lot of boundry) then love for self WILL equal love for other- in feeling and act.

A culture which encourages and nurtures a very social attitude (to recognize oneself as part of a larger whole) will find that the encouragement of loving oneself will nurture more loving and caring attitudes between the members. (and unloving attitudes towards non-members)

In a society which encourages individualism, (recognizing oneself as a separate individual from others), then nurturing love for oneself will only encourage love for oneself. Only. Selfishness and lack of empathy with others in general. These people will be able to feel love for immediate family they relate to though (a mate, or children).


I think it is like everything else- relative and according to context.

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
reply to post by greyer

 

No, that is completely true. If you don't love yourself, you are not only incapable, but undeserving, of love.

You are always deserving of love but if you don't believe you deserve it then you can block the opportunies for feeling love and distance yourself from people who love you without even realizing.

The next time you don't feel "loved" , think of a Tree giving air, plants giving food, sunlight giving warmth, family and friends who have ever helped you in any way...

you can find any reason to feel loved if you change your thinking, but if you feel "undeserving" you block all opportunities.

I think, overall, you are talking about 'affection' Bluesma.




The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the

Corinthians 13
Love

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, Mt. 17.20 ; 21.21 · Mk. 11.23 and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

reply to post by Angle


What is the difference between "Love" and "Affection" to you?

Trying hard to see what you're saying, re-reading everything, I am wondering, is the OP trying to say self esteem IS love of self??

I do not agree, if so. Or at least, I would not call it "love of self". Because one can have a very intellectualized, unemotional, inaffective , highly qualified self image.

I consider love an affect, an emotion.

reply to post by Bluesma


Affection isn't given to all whom I love.

Originally posted by Angle
reply to post by Bluesma

 

Affection isn't given to all whom I love.

edit on 10-4-2013 by Angle because: (no reason given)

So.. affection is what I called "objective love" - something you do; somethign the other can experience and know through your acts?

Yes, this is what I mean, but I INCLUDE "subjective love"- the inner feeling of love, whether others know it or not.

If you are one that relates to the exterior world and others, you know the experience of "loving everyone", yet that doesn't mean you hug, kiss or am nice to everyone..... but I have talked this out with many people, and some people do not feel that. They claim they don't feel love for everyone, and in each case, I found they also have a very strong boundry of self/other separation, and lack empathy with others.

This 'inner feeling of love' you mention is the desire to give objective love? Or is it the lack of objective love you receive of others you feel? When I say this 'inner feeling of love' is just crap doesn't mean I'm cranky.

Originally posted by greyer
Love is far different than arrogance, yet some perceive this way of thought reflecting on themselves and others is a way of attention, hence a way of love, but they completely forget about the ego in relationship to emotion. The ego may say 'if this person is not happy it is because they do not love themselves.' The thing making them happy is sarcasm which is a rejection of real emotion in order to make light of it. Self-esteem is understanding the root cause of emotions. So it is a cycle of what limits people from understanding how to love each other. Childhood experiences are directly associated with self-esteem. That means that other people who say that people cannot be loved until they love themselves are just causing them to have less self-esteem, that the only way for a person to gain real self-esteem is by having love taught to them.

I think that you make some really interesting points. In terms of self-esteem in relationship to childhood issues, and the trauma that we generally experience throughout life on an emotional level, there is a requirement to address that, preferably in as detached manner as possible. It is not adequate to acknowledge those experiences and memories as a means of an excuse for our current state of being, it is necessary to accept them as a part of who you are, and anticipate when those thoughts are controlling your actions and perceptions. We can't necessarily expunge them altogether, but we can recognise the way in which they influence us. This leads to not only self-acceptance, but also acceptance of others.

As far as expression of love, sometimes, as with being a parent, you have to be stern, at others tender, but either way, you imbue your actions with love. When you are a parent you know that there are times when to spare the rod is to spoil the child, and though it is easier to turn a blind eye, or that punishment 'hurts you more than it hurts them' in the moment, you also know that love as a consistent force of change does require hard work and endeavour. So, in short, it is not simply a matter of loving yourself in order to gain love, it is about knowing yourself, being honest with yourself, understanding the way in which you percieve, making the necessary adjustments, and then applying that outwards to all things. As Bluesma says above, it is more about empathy, and that needs to come from total understanding of self, all quirks and foibles included, and the projection of that understanding, once inwardly gained, outward. Once you attain that, you have greater understanding or empathy for the needs of others and can express love.

However, none of that will, as discussed between Angle and Bluesma, necessarily lead to affection or physical intimacy, which is what is most often mistaken or used as a mask, for 'love'.

Originally posted by Angle
This 'inner feeling of love' you mention is the desire to give objective love? Or is it the lack of objective love you receive of others you feel? When I say this 'inner feeling of love' is just crap doesn't mean I'm cranky.

edit on 10-4-2013 by Angle because: (no reason given)

It is a personal experience, but it is not a desire... for it is "whole".
A desire is a void which pulls on things or people observed outside. Love (in this sense) is not in need or wanting anything, from the object of focus.

Objective love is simply a way of refering to love as far as others can experience it with you.


If you have the inner (subjective) love,
and through acts, you make that experience known to another,
then that is also objective love.


But of course one can go through the acts, and make someone feel love, when you do not have that experience inside, (fake it)
and you can also feel it inside and not share it through act.

I guess one could claim that love is not "real" unless it is acted out and shared with another (the subjective world and experience is invalid),

But I don't feel that way, myself. Though I feel that too often people keep their love to themself and have problems sharing it, which is too bad.

I also think that people often try to share, or express their love in different ways, that are not always understood by the other as being so.

I tend to think that if you put too much emphasis on the importance of the other "getting it", then you run into problems.... if you feel love for someone, say it is your child, and they will feel loved if you give them a candy, but it is better for them in the long run if you don't allow them to have one.
Which act is a loving act? The one that gives short term benefit to them, or long term?
The one they will recognize now as loving, or the one they will judge as not loving, until much later as an adult?

reply to post by arpgme


If you don't love yourself, how can you possibly know what love feels like? If you've never experienced something firsthand, you can't possibly know it, and are therefore incapable of recognizing it.

Sure, you can speculate, but ultimately if you don't love yourself you can't be loved. Not because people cannot feel love towards you, but because you cannot recognize love.

Again, self-love is not easy to attain, but definitely worth the effort.

That's because there is a difference between material love that is derived from the Ego and unconditional love that is exhibited by the Spirit towards all.

You may be able to love the way someone or something makes you feel while unable to make yourself feel that way, but you will not be able to truly love them if you have no idea what love even is. We only have our thoughts, our minds, our emotions, our perception as a reference point. All we know is what we have already experienced. If we have not experienced love towards ourselves then there is no way we even know what love is to express to another.

Originally posted by Bluesma
I think you brush a few different angles on the subject of love that could be delved into, for example the difference between love as a subjective experience (something you feel inside for someone) and love as an objective experience (something the other can experience and know through your actions).
There is a lot that can be said on that.

- And learning how to love, that is another thing.. (can you love anyone, even self, if no one has ever loved you?).

But in particular when it comes to sefl love equalling love for other, what I observe is this-

It all depends upon the person's identification of self. If a person identifies and relates to the exterior and others (without a lot of boundry) then love for self WILL equal love for other- in feeling and act.

A culture which encourages and nurtures a very social attitude (to recognize oneself as part of a larger whole) will find that the encouragement of loving oneself will nurture more loving and caring attitudes between the members. (and unloving attitudes towards non-members)

In a society which encourages individualism, (recognizing oneself as a separate individual from others), then nurturing love for oneself will only encourage love for oneself. Only. Selfishness and lack of empathy with others in general. These people will be able to feel love for immediate family they relate to though (a mate, or children).

Thanks a lot for the replies. I like how the ideas can go into different topics, starting even more new interesting discussions.

I agree with subjective and objective love, what I mentioned would be objective and not subjective, primarily directed to society. I think are many who do small things to show others attention, even if it is smiling and saying hi.

It does make me realize that there can be switch off in some cases, as in the person resists the idea of love and turns away from it so it may look like that are undeserving. arpgme is right that is doesn't mean they are undeserving, but it is like interwoven with each other like Bohr's model of an atom - the giving of love, the learning of love, the escape of fear all in a cycle.

I am wondering, is the OP trying to say self esteem IS love of self??

Yes I think self-esteem is love of self and understanding emotions, but overall I am trying to say that objective love is misunderstood in society because psychology has proven how individuals develop self-esteem - by being given attention, so the self-centered mindstate will only continue a regressive cycle.

The problem of "objective" and "subjective" love amounts to "love that is evident", and "love that is not". Whether others can percieve it.


When a person has not recieved enough attention as a child, the problem you end up with is lack of self awareness, not lack of self esteem .


The person ends up having not enough ego, being in a state of submission, or passivity, faced with all others . In a sort of awe-admiration-respect of all others.

This isn't the same as having low esteem though, because it doesn't mean you dislike yourself, or feel you are not good enough or something,- there just is no "self"-



The problem here becomes that affirmation of self is done through actions, gestures, verbal expression.
These are how we communicate "what I am" and "how I feel" to others.

When I was a kid, my awareness was like "Love is", not "I love you", or "you love me". So there was nothing to express. love just "is". (I actually became mute for a couple of years between the ages of 5 and 8, this may be why).

So perhaps others don't know "love is" because I did not say it. But nonetheless, there was a warm and affectionate and admirative feeling as I regarded them or thought of them.
So I tend to think- just because a person cannot express their love in a way it is recognized by others, does not mean it is not present in them.

My sister was mentally handicapped and nobody else could understand her at all, but she loved! She emoted inside with that warm affection-admiration feeling... though it came out in grunts and movements others didn't understand. I guess people could say she was incapable of love- I am convinced she was. I could feel it- she was experiencing love.

Giving a child attention, either positive or negative, awakens their awareness of self, but also teaches them what words, gestures, and acts are commonly understood to be "love" in their environment and culture. You learn how to communicate what you feel, not to feel.


The ways of communicating vary! When I came to France, I found out that for them, to have someone criticize you is a show of love. I totally misunderstood it at first and thought my family in law hated me. For them it means you care enough to try to help.
When you smile and act over positive to people here, it means you're mocking them and think they are stupid- that you don't like them. A child needs to learn the appropriate ways of expression in their culture for others to know what they are feeling.




(sorry if this looks like I am lecturing- this is ONLY my opinion, and I am just using this opportunity and inspiration to work out my thoughts into words. It is therapeutic for me- not meant to change anyone elses minds- feel free to ignore my posts! )