Korea : Military Concerns and Summaries

Originally posted by templar knight
Thanks for the facts. Interestingly in the first Gulf war the strength of the Iraqi army was at the time the 4th largest in the world. Other figures for Iraq were 4,500 tanks, 484 combat aircraft and 232 combat helicopters - many of these aircraft were modern. So the US has recent experience of combating such an enemy.

"such an enemy"?... what?

Ok, you had to go to wiki to check on the gulf war, I remember the gulf war. I remember those m1 columns roaring through the desert at 40 miles an hour in parallel formation with the apaches flying above them leaving so much dust behind them it seemed the gods themselves were creating a sandstorm behind them such was the might of the US war machine...

Well... you cant do that in NK. the topography renders the m1s useless and nks has faster and more mobile tanks, smaller yet with thicker armor, more well suited to the conditions.

even "Glory days" iraq has nothing to do with NK... absolutely nothing. And the mentality of the "oriental warrior"... I mean.... look I wont even go there. I'll just say that comparing them to iraqi soldiers that fight for "allah" and that "allah will protect them from an incoming hellfire missile with a divine dome and will rain down fire upon the infidel's helicopters without doing jack sh##" is not really what north korean soldiers are about.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000
Interesting reading but there are a few things you left out for one the new Missile news.nationalpost.com... their 2002 tank www.globalsecurity.org... also not listed is there new small arms based on the "AK 74" and the new "burp gun" 100 round drum feed 30 cal [7.62] like our SAW but more of a field buzz saw, not only will the Shelling be stunning so too will be the ground assault, and that is if China does not come in, for that is a different mater.

Originally posted by MrSpad
Bigger problems for North Korea beyond old equipment is training and command and control. As soon and NK goes to war they will be blind and unable to direct forces from any centeral control. Add that to lack of training at all levels of the North Korean forces and the crappy weapons become a seconday issue for them. While the North Korean forces spent a good part of the year bringing in the crops and doing other labors the South is training. With so little contact with the outside world I wonder what the North Koreans even know about about modern warfare.

You're exactly right and I think that hits one of the major issues North Korea has to face which we don't. To my understanding, they function on the old Soviet model of command and control. My research into thier air defense nets confirmed that by the way they're spread out for command and control of air units from ground stations. They get vectored onto targets by ground controllers instead of our approach which is to give the pilots all the data they can possibly handle and more, to do that independently.

So, once their command and control goes dark, they do have one mother of a problem, when all their training has revolved around the element of ground guidance they won't have anymore.

The training is the other BIG one. It's hard to overemphasize that one. Prior to 2012, they ran about 100 training flights a year. That's total! So what s that, one training flight every 3 days, country/air force wide?? One member with extensive experience with the U.S. Air Force told me the comparison was close to saying their whole Air Force has near the combined training hours as ONE of our experienced pilots. How do they possibly compete? THEY are told they can and that they are superior to US Pilots. That's such a cruel delusion, it's almost sad for the pilots. They won't live long enough in the air for pure lack of training, to even realize the level of deception they've suffered.

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni

Originally posted by MrSpad
Bigger problems for North Korea beyond old equipment is training and command and control. As soon and NK goes to war they will be blind and unable to direct forces from any centeral control. Add that to lack of training at all levels of the North Korean forces and the crappy weapons become a seconday issue for them. While the North Korean forces spent a good part of the year bringing in the crops and doing other labors the South is training. With so little contact with the outside world I wonder what the North Koreans even know about about modern warfare.

I dont know... they helped digging the tunnels you sunk into in vietnam, you tell me. You fell prey to an ill equipped weaker force.

The US already had trouble in Korea once... and in Vietnam with the help of Korea. You cant fight in the jungle. You can fly, carpet bomb, use your navy etc all this to do everything from a distance, but you'll have to put troops on the ground, and simply put, the US army is not ready to fight under those conditions and will take time to adjust - if war breaks out you can pretty much assume from the start those 20000 US troops in the DMZ as lost. Right of the bat. And if you deploy anything but special forces / recon in any early stage you're in for a bloodbath - don't kid yourself.

You don't have to be a war expert or analyst and many people here keep saying - nk is not a "rag tag army with lack of motivation that will surrender to us troops as they pass by like it happened in iraq". - almost 2 million men and women, and 8 million active reserves - armed, trained, well motivated, suicidal, proud, extremely aggressive, with no respect what so ever for any convention of war or international regulation.

Btw the kind of guerilla warfare there will render lots of tech useless so the old tech, and specially the terrain tactics will dictate a lot - and as you probably know, the us lacks in "tactic" and relies a lot on its tech. This will be a major problem. Even the supply is a problem on the simplest things - NK probably has the ak 47 as the bread and butter of its army and reserves, which I dont need to tell how better than an m16 the ak is and how available the ak round is compared to the 5.56 (which cant be found on site - requires always a supply chain) the ak 47 is also cheap as dirt as you know.

I'm just saying this so people dont get surprised if things turn ugly all of a sudden... like I said, sure as hell hate to be on the ground on that hellhole...

You seem to be confused. The problem in Korea the first time was that the US had completely over run the counrty and China invaded out of fear. And trying to compare this to Vietnam shows a compelte lack of military knowledge. Fighting an a limited war against a internal enemy with unlimited supplies and arms by two other powers in an weak localy unpopular allied nation has about as much to with a war on in Korea as the war of 1812. Also the onnly korea involved in Vietnam was the South. You also seem to think the US troops are all up on the DMZ. They are not, having pulled back to the South over a decade ago.

While do not know how motivated the forces of the North are, we do know they are poorly trained and poorly equiped. And more importantly poor lead. Command and control will be massively disrupted and North Korean officers are not tough to take the initiative. What we do know is the in the South they are better trained, better armed and heavly motivated to defend their homeland. We also know they will have quick air suppriority and with compeltely dominate the night. North Korea will be a an unorganized mob, capable of doing massive damage in the first day or two of a war. Then it is over. The South is more than capable of dealing with the North alone and the can bet they will not be alone.

reply to post by RAY1990

I do have a question though if you could answer it, the US is only in South Korea defensively correct? so if active war broke out (as in actual engagement) how far can the US go in terms of supplying guaranteed safety for SK?

Yeah, the US have under 30,000 total troops on the Peninsula right now. The DPRK has over a million men and the majority are within quick jumping distance to the DMZ. The math makes for a short, vicious but ultimately one sided fight......at first. Just like it was in the 50's. I think US leaders have been confident that the level of "There are more where those came from" would be enough to deter attack. After all, 30,000 can become 300,000 pretty damn quick if we don't mind some traditional garrisons around the world getting a little empty for awhile. Kim wouldn't seem to believe or care that all that will be in fast forward deployment almost immediately.

Sea to Air and Sea to Land based weapons would be the best strategy for the US in my eyes atleast till the ranged guns and anti-air weapons are weakened to a point where moving troops can be done with relative safety, I suppose that high altitude or stealth bombing would help too.

I tend to agree. If it doesn't end fast, as in a general collapse of the regime in days? I think we're in for a LONG haul there. I think they either fold and fall like Iraq in 1991, once the real battle began (100 hours, on the button for the ground war then) or they turn mole and fight from countless underground facilities and positions they've been building for 60 years. At least I believe South Korea has gotten sophisticated enough to end the tunneling UNDER the DMZ. That's been a thing they've dealt with finding for decades now.

(anyone not familiar with the North's constant efforts to tunnel pre-positioned tanks and forces under the DMZ should look that up. It's incredible. When North Korea opens up, I must say, they have some of the best tunnelers in the world to share)

This is a war nobody with a sane and stable mind would want.

I think that's the most logical and intelligent thing anyone can say about this. Only a lunatic or a bloodthirsty tyrant could WANT this war. It's the BIG one in terms of what everyone has known MAY have to happen someday but hoped with everything that would never come. Iraq hadn't spent 60 years physically and mentally preparing for this moment in the isolation of outside influence or sanity to balance it all. North Korea has.

I read a long document that was supposed to be a Gneral reporting to Congress or Security Council about the reality of fighting NK. Al of the information in here was touched on. Not quite as in depth but nearly. Wish I could find the link. Anyhow, the reality was and is that NK appears to be the one Nation on earth who is wiling and capable of taking on the USA and it's allies without hesitation if required. Scary stuff when reading your thread. It would be a bloody war before NK was beaten. That is a given. On scale to be possibly WW2 type casualties even.

reply to post by bekod


If they have the 74 or the 74u is probably only for tactical ops / special forces.

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni


Just a slight correction here:

Korea (both North and South), is not a tropical climate, and does not have "jungles".

Temperatures are about on par with Washington DC and north of it. Climate is close, but with much more precep. However, the plants there are more like temperate and mountain areas here in the US.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I had a long reply written out and just lost it

But basically what I had to say is this, I can imagine the North Korean soldier will be in ways akin to a Japanese soldier in WW2, he'll be the worst type of enemy you can face because he will never surrender and North Korea has had 60 years to brainwash it's people into this mentality. This was the reason the US nuked Japan in WW2, if they didn't they would have been burning them out of bunkers and caves for years plus the casualties and deaths would have been millions more.

If it does kick off I hope the US has more than enough means to end it in days because if it ends up in a long term war against guerilla type forces on mass a lot of people would be wishing it was as simple as detonating a few nukes.

Those tunnels they have/are building are a solumn reminder of the kind of determination any military would have to face if it came to it, real extremists in every sense of the word 60 years of building like that probably throughout most of the nation

A link about some of the tunnels they have found in the past for anyone interested :
PDRK Tunnels under DMZ

reply to post by Zaphod58


Doesn't mean they're bad planes, though. The F-5 has a pretty small radar signature when it is facing you, and they're maneuverable. If they're used right, MiG 21s and F-5s can be pretty potent, especially when playing hide-and-seek with heavy-laden air superiority fighters looking for BVR engagements.
I kinda doubt the North Koreans are trained well enough to exploit those advantages, though.

Originally posted by eriktheawful
reply to post by FraternitasSaturni

 

Just a slight correction here:

Korea (both North and South), is not a tropical climate, and does not have "jungles".

Temperatures are about on par with Washington DC and north of it. Climate is close, but with much more precep. However, the plants there are more like temperate and mountain areas here in the US.

sorry... I actually was thinking of very dense forests and swamps / water

reply to post by RAY1990

That is such a disturbing thought. We've all seen the WW-II movies of the 'Death before surrender' 'Bushido' code and reading the non-fiction books brings it home for detailed accounts that are just unbelievable. Right down to the countless Japanese on the Islands blowing themselves and sealing their own tunnels rather than fall into Allied hands through surrender. It's such a foreign concept to my modern thinking, it's just not something I can put into real mental terms. It's too abstract a thought.

The idea that there may still be a society on Earth with that level of fanatic following and determined will is something to have a moment of pause from.

I know it's a big joke these days and I've made it myself about my lawns being too tall and saying 'There are Japanese out there that don't know the war's over!'...but it's a shock to find that in real history, they WERE finding cut off Japanese units after the end of the war who hadn't gotten the memo and were still gung ho to fight to the death.

I SO hope this isn't the case and we honestly never run into that as a world again. How WOULD we deal with a million man army in that tiny a space who would fight to the last man? It was outright bloodbath to look at casualty numbers by both sides in the Pacific war campaigns.

reply to post by pheonix358


What sensationalist BS. China hasn't exactly been an unwavering ally of North Korea. In fact, they most likely would prefer some kind of leadership transition, perhaps even re-integration in North Korea. At this point, the major reason they prop up NK is because of stability. If the regime were to collapse, that means millions of North Koreans crossing the border.

Recently China had to boost border security on the North Korean border, simply because they could not handle the hundreds of thousands of refugees entering the country and seeking asylum.

Yes, it is valid that China uses North Korea as a buffer from Western influence, but suggesting that they would invade North Korea is doubtful. Firstly, it means that they would have to govern that mess on the Korean Peninsula, and second it means they will have to combat the worlds largest and most powerful military, with the greatest air force, that has unquestionable air superiority. It also means they would risk nuclear conflict.

A country with a military that is as undeveloped as China, would not risk that. Yes, I say undeveloped, because it has only just recently started evolving a Blue Water navy.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


I cant believe you just underestimated china...

Russia is no match, China is no match, Korea is no match... no one is... boy you're really in for a surprise one of these days...

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni

Originally posted by eriktheawful
reply to post by FraternitasSaturni

 

Just a slight correction here:

Korea (both North and South), is not a tropical climate, and does not have "jungles".

Temperatures are about on par with Washington DC and north of it. Climate is close, but with much more precep. However, the plants there are more like temperate and mountain areas here in the US.

sorry... I actually was thinking of very dense forests and swamps / water

Depends on what area you are in. Their forests are a lot like ours in density as far as temperate forests go.

Swampy areas do exist, but by no means cover the entire country (like some states I know here in the US, heh).

When I lived in Seoul, it would get cold enough to freeze the ground. Summers were not sweltering, but humidity does get rather high, with bugs coming at you. But all in all it's not that much different from places here in the US.

That is such a disturbing thought. We've all seen the WW-II movies of the 'Death before surrender' 'Bushido' code and reading the non-fiction books brings it home for detailed accounts that are just unbelievable. Right down to the countless Japanese on the Islands blowing themselves and sealing their own tunnels rather than fall into Allied hands through surrender. It's such a foreign concept to my modern thinking, it's just not something I can put into real mental terms. It's too abstract a thought.

The idea that there may still be a society on Earth with that level of fanatic following and determined will is something to have a moment of pause from.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


The greatest weapon Japan had at the time was it's ideology and it most likely is N Korea's deadliest weapon too, the regime their is fanatical and I believe the population is too. It's all good calling Kim the crazy little fat kid but it becomes a little less funny when millions are standing behind him just as crazy and daring as he is, plus they will most likely die before dishonour if 60 years of isolation has did what it should.

I know it's a big joke these days and I've made it myself about my lawns being too tall and saying 'There are Japanese out there that don't know the war's over!'...but it's a shock to find that in real history, they WERE finding cut off Japanese units after the end of the war who hadn't gotten the memo and were still gung ho to fight to the death.

Never heard that one before then again i'm in the UK, I was lucky enough to read a book in school when I was young about a Japanese sailer that brought it to light for me it was called Kensuke's Kingdom I think, basically he was never found till the 80's or 90's. It is a sobering thought that soldiers were still fighting because the couldn't believe Japan would surrender and a lot of those who did believe in the surrender simply killed themselves out of the shame.

I SO hope this isn't the case and we honestly never run into that as a world again. How WOULD we deal with a million man army in that tiny a space who would fight to the last man? It was outright bloodbath to look at casualty numbers by both sides in the Pacific war campaigns.

And that is why no American in his right mind would want Korea to start, the Pacific campaigns were hell and they screwed a lot of people up physically and mentally. I honestly think if war with Kim broke out fighting like this will be highly likely, the US and the south may be able to stop the strike capabilities and maybe even nuclear too but winning and making sure they are no longer truely a threat could take years.

I don't want to see more generations destroyed by war

reply to post by eriktheawful


BULL! We don't have honey wagons.Remember the honey wagons? I remember the huge concrete pillar road blocks where detonation stations were located..Korea was all hills,steep hills.It rains hard and in the winter the cold goes right through clothing.In Camp Stanley we ran lift alerts all the time.On one occasion new years, I think we barely made formation with gear drunk off our butts on Soju...making us more aggressive.
As an Air Cav scout I would be flown to a mountainous area and take up an OP on a critical route and secure that route by radio coms. Me a map and a pair of binos and a compass along with a line of artillery can kill a division in a large valley if I get air.

NATO to defend Skorea..
www.acus.org...

I read about last Korean war yesterday. It is quite an eye opener (1.2 mil people killed with massive destruction of infrastructure).

The problem is the military philosophy of East Asia - the concept of militarized society and total war.

There is absolutely no doubt that conflict in Korea will be horrible, even without China directly entering the conflict. If China enters it, we are looking at WWIII.

The inevitable has to happen, but it is not yet time.

This is starting to ramp up, with other dipomats running also.

Thailand to remove citizens from SKorea