Why do some theists desperately try to claim a lack of faith as religion?

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by grainofsand

 

I love Science. In fact, Science has improved my faith in the unknown and known. It has also made my belief in a creator that much more.

After reading this thread there is evidence that.....

You love Science.

You have faith in Science. The evidence of such is within this thread, yet you deny it?

Your philosophy of life is Science based.

What came before Science?

Yes I love science but again, using the F word out of the context which religious types use it is misleading.
Faith in something which cannot be proven in any way either through experiment or equations is not the same as belief in the research of scientists. I can study others research and reach an informed conclusion by copying experiments or maths - The same cannot be said about claims of gods.

As far as the 'what came before science' question, I don't care to be blunt, and any answer I provide would not be relating to the topic of theists claiming that belief in scientific processes is the same as faith in gods. Which it clearly is not.

Originally posted by grainofsand
Thank you for your reasoned contribution to this thread.

Just this though...

Originally posted by salainen
You need faith in something, and science does only really study what can be studied, as in our material world.

I have lived happily without faith in invisible entities for many years of my life.
Personally I see no need for it and would consider it as an uneccessary distraction.

You have no need for faith in invisible entities perhaps, but what about your faith in other things?

You don't need to believe in God, but there is always something you believe in, many things actually. Such as faith in the proper conduction of experiments. Faith in the teaching of certain complex theory.

For example, I do not fully understand the proof of evolution, and from my experience most people do not know the evidence. But I have faith in the scientists who came to that consensus, and therefore I believe in evolution. I have studied the matter to some degree, but certainly not enough to come to the conclusion myself. Have you studied it enough? Or do you put your faith in others work, and just believe evolution? Do you know the full proof, and how you came to the conclusion?

reply to post by grainofsand


Please, make difference between beliefe in some historical moments and what happened, and belief in some supernatural forces. Bible, for an example, is interesting for analysis of that historical moment. And supernatural forces can be our belief in, because of cheating, or, the absence of our knowledge of some technical devices and proccesses which maybe existed in that time, but in secrecy. That could be the answer for something of that, I am sure of.

Originally posted by atlasastro
That is all you have, faith in science that it is the only knowledge and evidence you will accept as a true discription of the nature of universe, and us. Which is cool.

I am happy to accept any new evidence outside of recognised scientific concepts. How about a miracle or two these days, you know the type of thing. If I was walking down my local beach and the sea parted, perhaps a booming voice from a man floating in the sky for good measure, it would certainly influence my opinion on gods and other supernatural claims.
So far in life though there has been nothing to draw me towards believing in any gods.

I appreciate your wider points about faith in science, but again, as I've made as clear as I can in the OP, it is the claims of theists that faith in scientific research is the same as faith in an invisible entity which I am disputing.
I assert that such 'faith' is completely different and while ignoring the different interpretations of the word it is misleading at best to claim that belief in scientific studies is the same as belief in gods.

reply to post by grainofsand


I am not trying to change your mind on anything. I appreciate the differences we share and believe (or have faith) that we can learn something from one another.

We both love Science, this is evident.

Using the F word when it obtains to the context of such cannot be denied, no matter how you dress the word up.... its still a faith in something.... which in your case is solely on Science.

Each idea or fact you consider in Science is assumed by me something of which you have not verified on your own via your own experiments and or used mathematics to prove such a fact. With saying that, do you not agree that you have faith in those "facts" even before you have proven such to yourself? Have you proven each and every Scientific fact or are you using faith. Please be honest with us and yourself.

You state... "Faith in something which cannot be proven in any way either through experiment or equations is not the same as belief in the research of scientists. I can study others research and reach an informed conclusion by copying experiments or maths - The same cannot be said about claims of gods."

From MY perception and my own personal experiences Its been proven time and time again that the invisible exists. There is something "out there" that is a causation of experience within this realm and other realms. Quantum Mechanics and the Metaphysical is real to ME. Its a proof of such. The many deaths I have witnessed is more than a faith that God exists. Its a knowing.... Nous is not a faith....

I KNOW there is life after physical death and there is a Creator! Its also been proven by Neuro specialists that the brain has a belief system. Research what you deny and see if you continue to deny such. There is continued research on NDE, OBE, Remote Viewers, Psychics, and all kinds of "stuff" that you would believe to be abnormal, when in reality its all normal... just people with different experiences that you may not have experienced in "time", yet.

"As far as the 'what came before science' question",

What came before is "philosophy". Its all philosophy in my view.

Science is ever changing..... so once you believe and have tested something for yourself, know that in time.... everything changes. This is evident.

Be open to change. One day, in time, there may be proof of a creator who has indeed created everything in the material world.

Just because you do not believe in a creator and just because Science has not proven such (yet) does not make it true... in my view it makes it appear to be lacking.

If you say you have no faith.... come on... be honest. You have faith in a lot of things. You just do not want to admit it.

Originally posted by grainofsand

I appreciate your wider points about faith in science, but again, as I've made as clear as I can in the OP, it is the claims of theists that faith in scientific research is the same as faith in an invisible entity which I am disputing.

God is an invisible entity? Huh. That's news to me. I thought It was the very ground of being itself, the ground of our being. That which transcends being and non-being, visible and invisible.

Maybe your dualistic 'theology' is stuck at the kindergarten exoteric level? That's common among people who have science as a religion.

reply to post by grainofsand


Hehe.

What about a fat bearded dude on a cloud tapping you on the shoulder with a shepards staff.

I have never read a theist argument like the one you state.

If you could link any material relating to that, I would appreciate it. I have read or watched many debates on this topic especially along the lines of religious claims of scientism amongst atheists etc. I have yet to encounter the type of argument you describe, which is why I took a broader approach to your OP.

I for one accept science as the best and most accurate mode of inquiry into the physical nature of the universe, how incredible and complex, amazing and mind boggling existence is. Philosophically, I accept its limits. It is science that has led me to believe in something greater outside of the material universe. The nature of which remains a mystery to me. I am open to other modes of inquiry as a means of investigating this belief.

After all, isn't that what life is about?

Take Care, Thanks for all the replies.

Originally posted by grainofsand
I appreciate your wider points about faith in science, but again, as I've made as clear as I can in the OP, it is the claims of theists that faith in scientific research is the same as faith in an invisible entity which I am disputing.
I assert that such 'faith' is completely different and while ignoring the different interpretations of the word it is misleading at best to claim that belief in scientific studies is the same as belief in gods.

Ah I see, I read your OP too briefly, thats the section I should be focussing on then.

Did you read my post about evolution? Now I don't know how much you know, you might know all about evolution, but thats the basic point I'm making. If you don't truly comprehend the facts, and evidence behind evolution, you need faith. That faith is virtually the same as that which I use to believe in God. My belief isn't just from thin air, I have actually studied it somewhat, and understand things to some degree. What I learn when studying science never refute my beliefs in God, but strenghten it.

Originally posted by BlueMule
God is an invisible entity?

I was going to say something similar, but it didn't really seem relevant at the time. But since we are talking about faith, I must also point out that calling God an "invisible entity" is a bit vague. What is invisible? As BlueMule states, some people seem to have a very narrow understanding of religion. I don't think that grainofsand is one of those though, at least not necessarily.

reply to post by Budapest

God is responsible for life and death - so yes, God did kill 200,000 people in the Tsunami. First God gave them life then took it away. Mass murder? Perhaps. Crime against humanity? You must first show the damage - death is not damage.

The damage? How about ripping out the hearts of those that survived the tsunami, but lost little babies, sons and daughters, wives, mothers, lovers and friends. With many of these survivors worshiping and loving this god with all their hearts, minds, and souls. I bet they don't now.

If worshiping this god doesn't protect people from death, and the death of loved ones, then what is the point of this god?

Originally posted by jiggerj
If worshiping this god doesn't protect people from death, and the death of loved ones, then what is the point of this god?

You seem to have a very limited understanding of religion. God specifically made us mortal, so of course he isn't going to protect people from death. This is simple stuff. God doesn't exist to protect people from death. Thats not the point at all. Asking "whats the point of this god?", shows that you're thinking about it the wrong way around. I mean think about it. What would be the point of protecting everyone from death?

Originally posted by MamaJ
I KNOW there is life after physical death and there is a Creator! Its also been proven by Neuro specialists that the brain has a belief system. Research what you deny and see if you continue to deny such. There is continued research on NDE, OBE, Remote Viewers, Psychics, and all kinds of "stuff" that you would believe to be abnormal, when in reality its all normal... just people with different experiences that you may not have experienced in "time", yet.

No, you don't "know" there is life after physical death..because you are alive.
Now, you may suspect there is, you may believe in random speculations and hypothesis's of others, but to know something that at present is unknowable is either delusional or your just lying.

I have had a couple "ghost" experiences in my life. I tried to debunk and failed. What does that then mean to me? Is it proof positive of life after death? nope..because I don't know for sure what it was...it appeared to be something, but it could be many things. If I can accept a spirit is floating around communicating with me and moving stuff, I must also then entertain other things, such as interdimensional aliens, telekinesis, etc...now, I would -like- to think that the ghost experience I have had was what one would commonly associate (aka, lost relatives saying whats up), but I have no way of -knowing- that.
Same with all the NDEs, OBEs, remote viewers, etc...they are seeing something (well, the ones not insane, lying, or just stupid)...but due to no reference, their understanding is clouded with their system of belief.

You don't "know"....you simply can't. You simply believe...with conviction. That is how it simply is until there is solid, unfalsifiable proof to provide. But no worries, belief doesn't automatically mean its incorrect..just means its faith over facts, or faith where facts are absent at the moment...could be right..but no real way of saying it.

I have faith mom loves me

Originally posted by salainen

Originally posted by jiggerj
If worshiping this god doesn't protect people from death, and the death of loved ones, then what is the point of this god?

You seem to have a very limited understanding of religion. God specifically made us mortal, so of course he isn't going to protect people from death. This is simple stuff. God doesn't exist to protect people from death. Thats not the point at all. Asking "whats the point of this god?", shows that you're thinking about it the wrong way around. I mean think about it. What would be the point of protecting everyone from death?

Depending on which religion you follow
The common big religion, Judeo-Christianity teaches we did start out immortal..then we ate some knowledge or whatnot and voila, God got uppity and made us mortal and will die, etc...

So, seems mortality, at least for humanity, is a eternal punishment (talk about holding a grudge)

reply to post by SaturnFX


Sorry to offend you. lol

I do KNOW. There it is again....

Had you asked me to be more specific in regards to how I know.... I would have told you.

An experience you have not had yet? Most certainly.

In time, maybe you too will know, It matter not to me.

Don't call me delusional and please not a liar either. Have some respect for our difference in opinion.

en.wikipedia.org...

Meant to add this...

I have faith mom loves me

Should you not KNOW this? ^^^

Why do some theists desperately try to claim a lack of faith as religion?

Because preaching and quoting scripture annoys people.

I'll mention my beliefs if I see some strange events that make a connection and give meaning but generally I try to avoid talking about my beliefs unless there is a special need to do that.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

IMO,when one expresses a lack of faith as much as a religious group expressing their presence of faith kind of defeats the point of lacking faith.

How so? How do we defeat the point of having a lack of faith - what is that point? Are we trying to accomplish something - with our lack of faith?

:-)

Is expressing how one sees this world - this life, their life and their place in all of it - somehow unbecoming?

Is gathering together in groups of like minded people, camaraderie, community - something that should be done away with?

Is this position you take just another way of shaming religious folk (passive-aggressively) while simultaneously shaming 'outed' atheists by distancing yourself from them?

The religious are entitled to their views, their way of demonstrating and expressing their views. Their sense of community isn't something I would ever criticize - it's something I might actually envy. I find fault with the religious only when they begin to tell me and mine what we can or can't believe - and expect us to live according to their rules, even when we disagree with them

Atheists are still a minority - and it's only been just recently that being outspoken about this was even tolerated - if you look around the world it still isn't in many places - at all

This isn't me looking for a fight - god knows. I just find this new trend so interesting - and I really want to understand

I'm always up for a good debate :-)

Originally posted by salainen

Originally posted by grainofsand
I appreciate your wider points about faith in science, but again, as I've made as clear as I can in the OP, it is the claims of theists that faith in scientific research is the same as faith in an invisible entity which I am disputing.
I assert that such 'faith' is completely different and while ignoring the different interpretations of the word it is misleading at best to claim that belief in scientific studies is the same as belief in gods.

Ah I see, I read your OP too briefly, thats the section I should be focussing on then.

Did you read my post about evolution? Now I don't know how much you know, you might know all about evolution, but thats the basic point I'm making. If you don't truly comprehend the facts, and evidence behind evolution, you need faith. That faith is virtually the same as that which I use to believe in God.

I understand your point regarding belief in research of others which I have not studied and investigated myself.
Of course there are many theories which I have not carried out primary research for and therefore allow myself to take any claims at face value if they have been peer reviewed by other scientists.
I do not agree that this 'faith' is the same as faith in gods.

In any scientific claim I could study long enough and find the same evidence for or against the argument. I do not do this for everything as it would of course be impractical.
Many tens of thousands of scientists in the UK alone challenge and look critically at various claims and I of course base an opinion on their published results, a faith in their knowledge and research if you like.
This 'faith' is completely different to faith in gods though. I presented the various accepted definitions in the OP to show how the word is used in a misleading manner when asserting that atheists have similar faith.

I have faith that my friend will be providing me with a lovely beef dinner when I call round later this afternoon. This 'faith' is based on past experience of lovely food enjoyed at his home previously.
I had 'faith' in the instruction of professors when I was at university, based on experience that claims made in a lecture would be supported later during lab experiments.

Faith in the existence of gods is a very different definition of the word. There is no way to verify such claims and there is no previous experience to draw me towards believing at all.
It is a blind faith which unlike 'faith' in scientific research, cannot be studied in any way which will provide primary evidence to the student.

Science works.......*******...

reply to post by charles1952


Good morning Charles :-)

I'm not trying to nit-pick, but the word "tangible" is interesting. I hope you're not stacking the deck right from the start. What would you require for "tangible evidence?"

It's an interesting question - no matter how we look at it

What do you require to believe?

Originally posted by salainen

Originally posted by jiggerj
If worshiping this god doesn't protect people from death, and the death of loved ones, then what is the point of this god?

You seem to have a very limited understanding of religion. God specifically made us mortal, so of course he isn't going to protect people from death. This is simple stuff. God doesn't exist to protect people from death. Thats not the point at all. Asking "whats the point of this god?", shows that you're thinking about it the wrong way around. I mean think about it. What would be the point of protecting everyone from death?

How old are you? If you are young enough maybe we can open your eyes to the false beliefs you currently hold. You are right, god doesn't exist to protect people from death. If you believe the biblical stories to be true, then God killed everyone and everything on the planet in a flood. If you were alive back then he would have killed you too.

God killed all of the firstborn of Egypt to show the pharaoh who's boss. If you were a firstborn at that time he would have killed you too.

God commanded the Israelites to utterly slaughter all of the men, women and children of Canaan. If you were born in Canaan he would have ordered your execution too.

Some loving god, huh? And of course, you will come up with some desperate, wholly irrational excuse to make this right in your head. Don't do that! Look at it for what it is. The biblical god is a story made up by men. NO loving god would carry out such atrocities.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
what is that point? Are we trying to accomplish something - with our lack of faith?

I think for me its about not always being at odds with people who haven't developed faith.

There was a time when I was a pot smoking teenager.

I can identify with that. There is not a need to always represents one's self from one's belief system.

It bores people. It offends them. And always representing one's self from the perspective of one's faith is confrontational. It's not good for the other person or ourselves. Not every conversation we have in this life has to put us at odds with people who haven't developed faith. Proselytizing when a person hasn't inquired generally has the reverse effect of proselytizing. It turns people away.

There is more to life than just our belief systems.