Why do some theists desperately try to claim a lack of faith as religion?

Originally posted by grainofsand
reply to post by something wicked

 

I don't imagine we would agree on many things but as long as you keep your claims of atheist cult out of this thread then I shall have no issue.
I only mentioned the C of E bishops having votes in government in response to your pseudo-psychology post here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
It is a valid reason to have issue with religion, although as you say, off-topic so now you understand my motivation we can move on

Sure, the cult of atheism will no longer pass my lips, I don't get the secret handshake anyway so not for me to say, I hope it all goes well.

Whatever that as you say pseudo-psychology post is, your link doesn't take me to anything I have said. I am not a member of the Church of England but I do recognise the value of independent voices being heard, wherever they be from in society (as long as they are not there to represent a cult), as long as they are representative of the community they serve.

reply to post by grainofsand

And right there is where you insert the unprovable invisible entity to explain it all. As I said, you have no evidence, just faith based assertions.

where did i insert anything? my conclusion is based on the evidence.

Originally posted by thrustbucket
I think I understand the OP's question but it should have been worded differently.

A lot of the neo-athiests (sam harris, dawkins etc) running around writing articles, arguing on tv, making documentaries, and basically just pushing their agendas remind one very much of the behaviors of the 15th century catholic church - complete with tactics of persecution, intimidation, superiority, and even trying to change laws, policies with agendas.

I don't think all Atheists do this. Not all of them are fascists in behavior but enough of them are dogmatic enough to be compared to religion in behavior alone.

Excellently put thrustbucket, pushing that agenda seems to be ok for those neo atheists and yet none of them or their followers seem to see the irony in that.

Originally posted by thrustbucket
I think I understand the OP's question but it should have been worded differently.

A lot of the neo-athiests

That's a new label 'neo-atheists', some people have certainly not believed in gods for as long as people have claimed they exist.

(sam harris, dawkins etc) running around writing articles, arguing on tv, making documentaries, and basically just pushing their agendas remind one very much of the behaviors of the 15th century catholic church - complete with tactics of persecution, intimidation, superiority, and even trying to change laws, policies with agendas.

I doubt your persecution claims and could raise my own as a person without faith, but what's wrong with campaigning about laws and policies? Freedom of expression is only reserved for the theists now is it?

I don't think all Atheists do this. Not all of them are fascists in behavior but enough of them are dogmatic enough to be compared to religion in behavior alone.

Ah that's so comforting that you think not all people who lack faith in gods are fascists, thank you for saving some of us from your labels.

reply to post by Bob Sholtz
Correction, your faith based theory which has no evidence to support the existence of gods.

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by thrustbucket
I think I understand the OP's question but it should have been worded differently.

A lot of the neo-athiests (sam harris, dawkins etc) running around writing articles, arguing on tv, making documentaries, and basically just pushing their agendas remind one very much of the behaviors of the 15th century catholic church - complete with tactics of persecution, intimidation, superiority, and even trying to change laws, policies with agendas.

I don't think all Atheists do this. Not all of them are fascists in behavior but enough of them are dogmatic enough to be compared to religion in behavior alone.

Excellently put thrustbucket, pushing that agenda seems to be ok for those neo atheists and yet none of them or their followers seem to see the irony in that.

Its obvious religion is getting stomped so please lets make new rules where you cant inform other people that they shouldnt believe things without evidence.

Moving the flags and changing the rules great debate tactics.

reply to post by grainofsand


Atheism IS a faith.

Unless the atheist has died themselves and has first hand experience that there is 'nothing' after death, then they have no fricking idea what happens when they die, just like the rest of us.

If you believe in something without any tangible evidence, it requires faith.

the intelligent thing to do would be to say 'I don't know what happens after we die' - and for that reason I think atheists are stupid (and the ones that preach about it make me laugh a lot!)

reply to post by grainofsand

Correction, your faith based theory which has no evidence to support the existence of gods.

i clearly outlined how the evidence supports the existence of a god/gods.

you're denying something because you don't agree, not because there isn't evidence. so much for the touted atheistic bias superiority.

reply to post by Beavers


God has nothing to do with an afterlife, those are separate beliefs.

I mean seriously... who throws a shoe?

Originally posted by Beavers
reply to post by grainofsand

 

Atheism IS a faith.

Nope, it is a lack of belief in gods.

Unless the atheist has died themselves and has first hand experience that there is 'nothing' after death, then they have no fricking idea what happens when they die, just like the rest of us.

As an agnoostic atheist I make no claims about such things. That would involve a position of faith akin to the theists who claim afterlife etc.

If you believe in something without any tangible evidence, it requires faith.

Exactly why theists require faith and atheists do not.

the intelligent thing to do would be to say 'I don't know what happens after we die' - and for that reason I think atheists are stupid

(and the ones that preach about it make me laugh a lot!)

Ah, more polite responses from people of faith. I think my lack of faith is a reasoned opinion due to the lack of any evidence. Perhaps we define the word 'stupid' differently.

reply to post by Wertdagf

i assume you didn't read/understand this part.

If you believe in something without any tangible evidence, it requires faith.

faith is assurance that one is correct. every belief by definition requires faith.

Nope, it is a lack of belief in gods.

in other words, you believe that gods don't exist. you have faith in that belief. you think it to be correct.

Here is the question that seems to always stump those who claim an entity created the universe. Who or what created that entity? Theists seem to be hung up on the question of how existence popped into being the poof into existence part is definitely a decent question but no matter how you look at it something proofed into existence. Chicken or the egg? I know the chicken.


Anyway if god created the universe and everything in it where does that leave god? It is a conundrum.

I see evidence that the universe exists but I do not see any evidence of a creator. Well that is as far as I have tried to think it through my conclusion is there is no way to know so my next logical question is what’s for dinner. No seriously I am hungry and those before me have tried to answer this question devoting their lives to it and they haven’t gotten much further than myself so I think the quest is pointless it doesn’t hold any relevance to living your life. Dinner does = greater importance.


However I am interested in why theists dodge the Ops question so diligently. I wonder is it impossible for them to imagine that there are people who do not particularly care about where the universe came from or that we regard the possibility of diets existence in the same terms we as the possible existence of flying frolicking romping rainbow riding purple polka doted unicorns ( say that ten times fast). I can’t prove they don’t exist but does anyone really believe they do exist and does my lack of belief in them constitute a faith? I do not think so. If someone can explain why not believing in flying frolicking romping rainbow riding purple polka doted unicorns constitutes faith I am all ears.

reply to post by Bob Sholtz
Nope, you stated basic scientific principles and assumed that 'there must be a creator'
Again, that is not evidence, or are you telling me your statements are world changing in someway and we can now look forward to a paradigm shift in scientific thinking as a result of your theory?

reply to post by Bob Sholtz


So you already submit that your beliefs are on the same level as a child thinking there are monsters in the closet?

I didn't expect you to say "I'm just making this %&*^ up" so fast

I suppose ill just add that some secluded tribe in the forest who has NO creation mythology doesn't need faith to not believe in something that never occurred to them.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
Here is the question that seems to always stump those who claim an entity created the universe. Who or what created that entity?

What if the beings asking the CREATOR this Question, if they even Ask the and not chat amongst themselves. Receive responses in various ways but sadly due to their perceptions of how the should respond in their EYES they will build artificial techs etc. to see how or what they want and not how the CREATOR may NATURALLY want them to if they have reached conscious levels of processing GOOD and Bad etc..

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz

Nope, it is a lack of belief in gods.

in other words, you believe that gods don't exist. you have faith in that belief. you think it to be correct.

Nope, I have seen no evidence to convince me that they do exist so I do not believe in their existence.
I do not take the counter argument that I believe they do not exist as I have no evidence to support such a position.
I do not know, but I do not believe, I therefore fall under the descriptive term of agnostic atheist.
Your position is the classic example of the theists I referred to in the OP. You seem desperate for me to have some faith for some reason, even though such claims are obviously silly.

Originally posted by grainofsand
reply to post by Bob Sholtz

 

Nope, you stated basic scientific principles and assumed that 'there must be a creator'
Again, that is not evidence, or are you telling me your statements are world changing in someway and we can now look forward to a paradigm shift in scientific thinking as a result of your theory?

those principles require a creator to be valid, and evidence exists to validate them. it's pretty straightforward.

thinking doesn't change because of people like you, always denying the evidence because they don't want it to be true.

its sad actually for some may sense things physically that may relate to Soul/Spirit/Internal ENERGY like class tutors and cannot force classmates but can pass notes, that's it though. And the notes get footballed across the class Leaving classmates wondering WHEN did CLASS END as the look @ the notes on the Floor from fellow classmates that ONLY TRIED TO ASSIST them that's all so to see them Graduate with Class...

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz

Originally posted by grainofsand
reply to post by Bob Sholtz

 

Nope, you stated basic scientific principles and assumed that 'there must be a creator'
Again, that is not evidence, or are you telling me your statements are world changing in someway and we can now look forward to a paradigm shift in scientific thinking as a result of your theory?

those principles require a creator to be valid, and evidence exists to validate them. it's pretty straightforward.

thinking doesn't change because of people like you, always denying the evidence because they don't want it to be true.

Ah, I'm impressed and in awe of your great wisdom.
I look forward to seeing the name Bob Sholtz in the worldwide media as a result of your sound evidence proving the existence of god/s. Wonderful

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz

Nope, it is a lack of belief in gods.

in other words, you believe that gods don't exist. you have faith in that belief. you think it to be correct.

Nope, I have seen no evidence to convince me that they do exist so I do not believe in their existence.
I do not take the counter argument that I believe they do not exist as I have no evidence to support such a position.
I do not know, but I do not believe, I therefore fall under the descriptive term of agnostic atheist.
Your position is the classic example of the theists I referred to in the OP. You seem desperate for me to have some faith for some reason, even though such claims are obviously silly.

wait...

I have seen no evidence to draw me towards believing in any gods in my life, I therefore do not believe.

you're contradicting yourself drastically. which is it, that you don't believe in god, or that you don't know? the two cannot exist at the same time.

you either don't believe there is a god, or you are unsure if there is or isn't.

so I do not believe in their existence.

I do not take the counter argument that I believe they do not exist

you don't believe that gods exist, but then you don't ascribe to the argument that they don't exist. completely nonsensical.