Muslim leaders say - Muslims are Above U.S. law and - Do Not - have to obey Our Laws

Originally posted by poet1b


Democracy is a terrible choice, until one considers the alternatives.

Well, I do not share that opinion. Democracy is one choice and like everything, has it's time and place and circumstances in which it is most effective and others in which it is less.
(that is why I don't "believe" in anything- belief makes one biased and rigid, it provides blinders)

The solution is shut down immigration, and start deporting the radicals as quickly as possible. Create laws that prevent this process, but insuring the rights of their women, and the freedom of their women.

I think if solutions were that simple, they would have been carried out already.
One of the problems encountered there is the self contradiction- "It is wrong to force your own beliefs upon another"..... and "I will force upon you my beliefs in how your women should be treated in your society."

Speaking rashly and making big moral statements on ethics tends to get you in little messes of hypocrisy like that.

It would be great if reality could be that black and white! We would not even NEED to have brains, any capability of analytic or critical thought, or even self consciousness!
Unfortunately reality is full of color and nuance.


This is the problem dogmatic religions come up against constantly, Islam and Christianity included.

Christians have their "Thou shalt not kill" and still go to war and kill for their country, or in situations of self defense.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

So what now, can one make the argument that it is acceptable for Jews to deceive non-Jews... and thereby label all Jews as deceptive?

Those Rabbi based laws are not followed by all Jews, just as not all Muslims treat their women like property.

It isn't that hard to figure out if someone is a phony. That they can not be trusted.

reply to post by Bluesma


Can you name another form of government that is superior to a democratic/republican/representative style of government?

Democracy doesn't work in the military, but that is the only circumstance I can think of.

Why does belief have to make one rigid? I believe in God, but I have no clue as to the nature of God, or his intentions. God is far above my ability to comprehend, so it is not worth my effort to try, and that understanding applies to all of nature. You can believe, but realize that you beliefs are limited as is your understanding of this world. One of the big keys is to be able to recognize when certain beliefs do not apply. This requires being able to admit when you are wrong.

Where did I say the west should go to Muslim countries and dictate how they treat their women?

Only that if Muslims move to Western nations, then they must respect their women, and ours in the way our culture and laws demand.

Why would you come up with such a claim?

reply to post by poet1b

Those Rabbi based laws are not followed by all Jews, just as not all Muslims treat their women like property.

But you haven't established why you think its acceptable for Muslims to deceive non-Muslims. Sounds like you are speaking from a personal bias / opinion... like as if Muslims are inherently more prone to deceiving others.

It isn't that hard to figure out if someone is a phony. That they can not be trusted.

Bernie Madoff was trusted by many and everybody he screwed over realized too late that he was a phony. Or maybe he was acting in accordance to some Talmudic teachings.
(Refer to the Talmudic teachings I posted previously)

reply to post by poet1b

Only that if Muslims move to Western nations, then they must respect their women, and ours

Thats loaded language.
You seem to be implying that Muslims in Western nations don't respect their women and yours.
Kind of like telling someone, "if you want to come over to watch the big game at my place, you need to stop beating your wife".

In cases where people calling themselves Muslims don't respect women, then they are just being misogynistic scum. Its a personality trait. You'll find them in all cultures.

in the way our culture and laws demand.

And what do you mean by the way your culture and laws demand?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I'm not going to locate the parts Koran that talk about how to treat non-Muslims. It exists, and you know it.

Not interested in playing games.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


If you beat your wife, in western culture you are typically ostracized.

A can woman goes out dressed nicely alone in a western nation. If a bunch of men gang rape her, they go to prison. This is western cultural values.

In Muslim nations, it is illegal for her to go out in such a manner, and if she is raped, she gets punished and the rapists do not, or they get a slap on the hand. This is a huge difference.

reply to post by poet1b


I was pointing out something else.

You say "Only that if Muslims move to Western nations, then they must respect their women, and ours"... as if Muslims inherently disrespect women. That's loaded language.. like the example I gave you.

I'm not going to locate the parts Koran that talk about how to treat non-Muslims.

Well, when I pointed out the parts in the Talmud instructing Jews how to treat non-muslims, you say not every Jew follows that. But you don't seem to want to use that kind of reasoning for muslims. Thats ok, it speaks a lot for itself.

In Muslim nations, it is illegal for her to go out in such a manner, and if she is raped, she gets punished and the rapists do not, or they get a slap on the hand.

You are speaking from personal opinion.

Iran hangs 5 rapists in public

You know there are many more examples where rapists were executed. There are instances where justice isn't always served, but that is not the norm of Islamic justice.

Originally posted by daryllyn
This is going to sound harsh, and it might not be a popular opinion, but, I will stand by it:

Want sharia law? Go back to where you came from.

This is America.

You don't get to barge in here and start making demands and you certainly aren't 'above the law'.

Disclaimer: I am not a fan of any organized religion, just for the record and so no one thinks I am only picking on Islam.

edit on 27-3-2013 by daryllyn because: (no reason given)

So how are you going to judge the millions of African American Muslims?
The overwhelming majority do not want sharia law.
And they can't go back to Africa - although some Black Americans tried - Liberia was a questionable experiment.
Most just want to live on in the USA which they are proud of being citizens of...

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Google it yourself. You find plenty of hits.

Islam considers a woman's word to be worth half of a mans.

You could offer a better argument if you admitted the truth about many Islamic practices.

I am sorry I didn't see this until now, I got caught up in other threads. Didn't mean to ignore you!

Originally posted by poet1b

Can you name another form of government that is superior to a democratic/republican/representative style of government?

Democracy doesn't work in the military, but that is the only circumstance I can think of.

I can't even figure out how to frame that question in my mind.... what do you mean "superior to"? Superior in what way? Something can only be judged as "working" or "superior" according to specific values or intents.

Even there, context plays in it too- as in what works for one person doesn't work for another, to get to the same goal. Like if a group of peoples are content and happy with one system, and another group is not, because they have different preferences or values.


Some people like to have a firm authoritative leadership and a relationship of opposition between submissive and dominant (for some very valid reasons too, it is an especially masculine form of relation)
Some prefer a cooperative and inspiring type of leadership and relationship between leader and follower.

'editted to add- if you meant to ask me what MY preference is- it is democracy, not necessarily representative democracy though. I am not uncomfortable with the majority having the power to choose.If I am really not happy with the the majority has chosen, I can go change collectives and find one in which the majority has values closer to my own.
Republicanism... I think it is cool, but I can also see how a monarchy has benefits to it that republicanism doesn't. They both have their upsides and downsides.

Why does belief have to make one rigid?

That's a huge wide open question. But my personal preference to avoid belief is that I find the nature of our brain is to focus upon some elements in our environment and cut out others (not be aware of them) according to our preconcieved notions about reality and our intents. The more set ideas we have about what is, the more they limit what we are aware of- the parts of reality that do not adhere to that belief go unrecognized by our conscious mind.
I think we need some, but tryign to keep them as wide as possible allows more information to be available to the mind.

-If you meant to refer to my statement about dogmatic ideologies, that adjective was put there deliberately- dogmatic refers to

characterized by or given to the expression of opinions very strongly or positively as if they were facts

www.merriam-webster.com...
A basic belief in the existence of God, without firm notions of it's nature, rules, desires, etc. is not a "dogmatic religion".

Where did I say the west should go to Muslim countries and dictate how they treat their women?

(I didn't say "should go to Muslim countries" I only said "dictate to them how they should treat their women" ) I was responding to this that you wrote-

The solution is shut down immigration, and start deporting the radicals as quickly as possible. Create laws that prevent this process, but insuring the rights of their women, and the freedom of their women

If I misunderstood, I apologize. Please go ahead and explain further if you wish.

Only that if Muslims move to Western nations, then they must respect their women, and ours in the way our culture and laws demand.

WHAT? Oh heck, now I am really confused- this again sounds like you are saying we dictate to them how they should treat their women!
I still cannot see how you make this fit under "It is wrong to force your own beliefs upon another"..

I'm sorry if I am being dense- sometimes things just have difficulty getting through my brain LOL- if you wish to straighten me out on that, I am respectfully receptive.

reply to post by poet1b

Islam considers a woman's word to be worth half of a mans. You could offer a better argument if you admitted the truth about many Islamic practices.

Why don't you admit the truth that sexism exists even Judaism and Christianity and its in their religious scriptures as well?

Here are some Talmudic quotes...

A woman should be limited to going outside her house once or twice a month, as necessary, since a woman has no beauty except by sitting in the corner of her house.

The mind of woman is not suited to be taught, but only to words of nonsense.

A woman’s “wisdom is only in the spindle.”

Words of Torah should be burned rather than being given to women.

All her conversation is nothing but words of adultery.

Every woman washes her husband’s face and feet and pours him a cup and prepares his bed and stands and serves her husband. And any woman who refrains from doing any of these tasks that she is obligated to perform - is forced to do them.

She is a sack full of excrement with a bleeding hole.

Also check out this link...
Orthodox Judaism treats women like filthy little things

So with that established, your assertions that only Islam is sexist fails.

P.S - This has inspired my newest thread

Check this out. British people ARRESTED for making "hateful" comments about Muslims on Twitter.

www.businessinsider.com.au...

It sure feels like US is headed in the same direction...

Maybe this should have its separate thread...((I can't post yet because I am still in the under 20 posts of the noob phase).


Note: I don't like to bash other people's faith or the followers, but isn't arresting someone a little...much???

I do follow a Christian faith but I am all for free speech, so I expect my faith to be disagreed with, mocked, and argued. I don't have to like it, but I accept that free speech should be free speech. I don't get why people can mock Christians and Jews (and their values) but Muslims get some special exemption (on many things, may I add). Why? Free speech should be free speech. Equal opportunity bashing or sharing.

Umm...I'm surprised this hasn't been requested yet in this thread, but can you provide a source for this statement by this "Muslim leader" that ISN'T from worldnutdaily, or from a bigoted blog that sources wnd?
I mean, it is a little difficult for me to take the word of a website that is known to fabricate stories to denigrate muslims. I watched both the videos in the article, one was by a Nation of Islam guy, didn't say what the article claims, one was by another unnamed guy, and again didn't say what the article claims.

This op is an unadulterated LIE.
Muslims are REQUIRED by the SHARIA to adhere to any laws they come under

en.islamtoday.net...

The Muslims living a non-Muslim country, even if they originally entered that country by means of forged documents, are considered to be living in their adopted country under a covenant. They must, therefore, comply with the laws of their country of residence without, at the same time, disobeying Islamic Law.

Scholars have stated that those who enter non-Muslim countries have to adhere to their respective laws and regulations even if they entered those countries illegally, and they have no excuse for breaking those laws, since they were entrusted to abide by those laws upon entry into those countries.

Muslims living in non-Muslim countries have to comply with laws and regulations of the country they have been entrusted though valid visas to enter. At the same time, they have to avoid whatever contradicts Islamic teachings. In case they are obliged by law to uphold something contrary to Islamic teachings, they have to adhere to the minimum that the law requires of them.

This is one of the first thing a Muslim learns.

Here's a new direction:

www.independent.co.uk... l

Personally, I would agree with a ban on this method in the USA, I hope it is proposed to Congress, brilliant!

Is it animal rights or is it freedom of religion issue, 'cause I gotta say it would clear out a lot of the hot heads unless they go vegetarian…. Including the whackos in Hollywood….