Did Jesus increase the chances of you ending up in hell?

(If I say something that is right, then God has inspired me. If I say something that is wrong, then it is my own mistake.)

And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
-Mark 9:47

Jesus is often portrayed by Christians as someone who softened and toned down all those harsh Old Testament laws.

But what they seem to ignore is that Jesus only tightened Old Testament laws. He did this by upgrading the definitions of hellworthy sins of 'adultery' and 'murder' to include everyday human emotions... that occur naturally, such as anger and lust. Jesus redefined 'murder' to include the human emotion of anger.... and 'adultery' to include looking at a woman with lust.

So, all those upgrades have only INCREASED the odds of a person landing up in hell...and that too for experiencing natural God-given human emotions.

Ask yourself... what takes more effort?
Actually murdering someone OR just being angry with them?
Actually cheating on your spouse OR just lusting after someone else?

Or do Christians believe all those teachings against anger and lust were only valid for the 3+ years of Jesus' ministry on earth... and that they were nullified after Jesus died on the cross?



My humble understanding is that Jesus did not think or speak in black and white.
My guess is that, in the eyes of God... murderous anger and lust were always punishable with hellfire.
One can be outwardly pious and refrain from murder and adultery, but if he lived his life in unrepentant rage and lust.... his faith is tainted. There is no way such a person can truly claim to be dedicated to God.

Discuss.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n



Hi op

If you dont believe in hell, nor ever heard of it,
How is a person to end up there?

Not meaning to sound rude op.

reply to post by davesmart

If you dont believe in hell, nor ever heard of it, How is a person to end up there?

Can a sane but ruthless killer or a rapist say "I don't believe in prison and I've never even heard of it, you cant send me there!" as a valid excuse in court?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


You are right on the mark there OP. Jesus said these things to point out our hypocrisy and to show that there is no one who is righteous. It has always been so that we are dead in our sins as a race, everyone to a man. That's why he had to come and carry out His plan.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I cant disagree with that one op.

and

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
(If I say something that is right, then God has inspired me. If I say something that is wrong, then it is my own mistake.)

And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
-Mark 9:47

Jesus is often portrayed by Christians as someone who softened and toned down all those harsh Old Testament laws.

But what they seem to ignore is that Jesus only tightened Old Testament laws. He did this by upgrading the definitions of hellworthy sins of 'adultery' and 'murder' to include everyday human emotions... that occur naturally, such as anger and lust. Jesus redefined 'murder' to include the human emotion of anger.... and 'adultery' to include looking at a woman with lust.

So, all those upgrades have only INCREASED the odds of a person landing up in hell...and that too for experiencing natural God-given human emotions.

Ask yourself... what takes more effort?
Actually murdering someone OR just being angry with them?
Actually cheating on your spouse OR just lusting after someone else?

Or do Christians believe all those teachings against anger and lust were only valid for the 3+ years of Jesus' ministry on earth... and that they were nullified after Jesus died on the cross?



My humble understanding is that Jesus did not think or speak in black and white.
My guess is that, in the eyes of God... murderous anger and lust were always punishable with hellfire.
One can be outwardly pious and refrain from murder and adultery, but if he lived his life in unrepentant rage and lust.... his faith is tainted. There is no way such a person can truly claim to be dedicated to God.

It is my understanding that being angry is not a sin, and it is my assumption that you are thwarting scripture to suit your own teaching, on the basis of what you've written here about anger. Take this for example:
Ephesians 4:26 "In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,

How does that verse affect your understanding? What does it translate to you?
Do you think that the writer of Ephesians meant to say, "Anger is a sin and you can't control it and it's a God given emotion, got a problem with that?"

it sounds like you are saying that jesus wanted to send more souls to hell.
and, in my own opinion, he did not exactly define heaven and hell and who his father was.
it smells to me like he had an agenda (which he stated that many would not be able to percieve).
are you sure you are on the winning team here?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Judgmental people increased my chances of going to hell in their own mind. In my mind, if they're going to heaven, then I don't want to join them.

Originally posted by Wonders

Ephesians 4:26 "In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,

How does that verse affect your understanding? What does it translate to you?
Do you think that the writer of Ephesians meant to say, "Anger is a sin and you can't control it and it's a God given emotion, got a problem with that?"

I think it means to not act sinfully to liberate your anger and to (try to) resolve and not hold on to anger for long.

So anger isn't a sin.

Lust, well...f you don't act sinfully on it, then I guess there's no problem to that.
Lust can become love, so all's good.

reply to post by theMediator


The way I see it, lust is an act in and of itself and therefore is sin. Lust is temporary, love is eternal, that which sows to the temporary does not reap the eternal.

Jesus got angry, he didn't sin, it pleased God for Jesus to overthrow the tables of the merchants in the synagogue aka den of theives and for him to redirect their attention towards God's desires regarding our lives and away from the temporary rustable, moth munchable merchandise where theives break in and steal.

To derive pleasure from mocking God's judgement shows me the depths to which you are willing to understand that which you speak of.

reply to post by Wonders

The way I see it, lust is an act in and of itself and therefore is sin. Lust is temporary, love is eternal, that which sows to the temporary does not reap the eternal.

Emotions are not actions. I anger you! I happy you! I sadness you!

Yeah. Your logic is so flawless I could use it as a sponge.

Jesus got angry, he didn't sin, it pleased God for Jesus to overthrow the tables of the merchants in the synagogue aka den of theives and for him to redirect their attention towards God's desires regarding our lives and away from the temporary rustable, moth munchable merchandise where theives break in and steal.

The mere presence of lust is an action and therefore sin, but the mere presence of anger is not? Are you daft?

To derive pleasure from mocking God's judgement shows me the depths to which you are willing to understand that which you speak of.

Your demonstrations of your own understanding tell me you've given yourself more than a black eye trying to think.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

. . . Jesus only tightened Old Testament laws. He did this by upgrading the definitions of hellworthy sins . . .

I don't think Jesus changed the fundamental laws of morality but only spelled them out where the religious leaders of his time failed, but who were busy justifying anything done to any people other than their own class of 'elite'.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


It is hatred that is akin to murder, not anger. John tell us this in 1 John Ch 3.

11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. 13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. 14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Lust and anger are two very different things. You have to realize that God lets his preferences be known to us that we may walk in them, sin is not defined by the created but by the Creator.

Jesus pbuh also taught to love God with all our heart,mind and strength.

When you love that way, the likes of the beloved becomes your likes and you hate what your beloved hates.
Jesus pbuh did make it more strict with a view to improve the inside of men rather that just have hypocritical piety outside.

Anger can be justified anger or selfish anger, anger at what displeases God is ok as Jesus pbuh showed to the money changers.
Justified anger could be also when one sees an innocent person being wronged/hurt.

There is no justification for lust.

If the first inward thought is not warded off,
it will generate a desire, then the desire will generate a wish,
and the wish will generate an intention,
and the intention will generate the action,
and the action will result in ruin and divine wrath.
So evil must be cut off at its root,
which is when it is simply a thought that crosses the mind,
from which all the other things follow on.
-Imam abu Hamid al-Ghazzali

reply to post by occrest

It is hatred that is akin to murder, not anger. John tell us this in 1 John Ch 3.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:21

“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

. . . Jesus only tightened Old Testament laws. He did this by upgrading the definitions of hellworthy sins . . .

I don't think Jesus changed the fundamental laws of morality but only spelled them out where the religious leaders of his time failed, but who were busy justifying anything done to any people other than their own class of 'elite'.

edit on 26-3-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

...this is correct.
Jesus didn't change the law at all. He simply showed that the spirit of the law is greater than the letter of the law.

The fact is, the chances of going to hell never changed. It's the default destination of sin, whether that sin be in men or angels. It's only through Christ that sin can be dealt with, and thus only through Christ that hell is averted at all. This was the case both in the Old Testament (in that the sacrificial system looked forward to Christ, to God's provision of a promised saviour) and in the New (in that we look back to Christ's sacrifice, and forward to our final redemption and our new bodies, 1 Corinthians 15).

...nothing has changed, either then, or now. Jesus Christ is the only name given among men by which we must be saved.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I don't think Jesus changed the fundamental laws of morality but only spelled them out where the religious leaders of his time failed, but who were busy justifying anything done to any people other than their own class of 'elite'.

IMO, Jesus simply raised the bar for morality... so people couldn't simply hide behind a facade of being moral.

He taught people to be truly devoted to God according to the law.... as opposed to an outward show of morality by mechanically keeping the law, as the Pharisees did. Which is why he said his followers would not enter the kingdom of heaven unless their righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
-Mark 9:47

Hell? It was written in, in place of "the grave," "Gehenna," "Tartarus," and a few other things. Other Bible translators have rendered it properly:

"And if your eye makes you fall, throw it away! It will be better for you to enter into the Kingdom of God with but one eye, than possessing both eyes, to be thrown into the fire of Gehenna..." Mark 9:47 Ferrar Fenton Version

Bad translations in, bad theology out.

As to the question raised by the thread title, God forbid! Are you going to say that John the Baptist did NOT say Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world? Are you going to say that Jesus did NOT say that if He were lifted up, He would draw ALL men to Himself? The complete triumph of God's Love over sin and evil is abundantly clear in the Scriptures, but the existence of "Hell" is not.

reply to post by Wonders

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Wonders

 

The way I see it, lust is an act in and of itself and therefore is sin. Lust is temporary, love is eternal, that which sows to the temporary does not reap the eternal.

Emotions are not actions. I anger you! I happy you! I sadness you!

Yeah. Your logic is so flawless I could use it as a sponge.

Lust and anger are two very different things. You have to realize that God lets his preferences be known to us that we may walk in them, sin is not defined by the created but by the Creator.

They are not. Both exist solely inside the mind until the moment you choose to act on them. Anger and joy are just as much actions as lust, for all three exist within the mind until you express them. It's called emotion. So the way you see it is incorrect. Plain and simple. Emotions are not actions. I'm not saying you're a bad person, I'm saying perhaps you should pick up a book that doesn't tell you have to live your life. You might learn something.