How is it really "free will"

Free Will is not a religious concept
Free Will is not a legal ramifaction or by laws.

free wills enemy is the perceived common good.


"free will = choice" (earlier poster)
I can choose to have a religon with an omnipotent god
I can choose to acknowledge Laws.
I can choose to live what ever life style I want.

My free will and rights are unlimited up to the point that MY free will damages others.

This is the nugget buried deep in the public smoking bans.
This is the nuggets buried in the prolife or prochoice debate.

try this every time some one says "it's my right..." or "you have no right" subsitute "It's my free will to...." etc.


For the non critical thinkers in the crowd ... I know it will not always be grammatically correct... think big concepts not picuane details.

if religion is the maze and god is the cheese then, yes. there are more than one path towards god/spitituality.

does church have the ability to prescribe redemption?

The rat is confined to a box, and only one path, par excellence, leads to the "Cheese"; all other paths lead to dead ends, zaps of electricity....

How much freedom does that rat have?

Deep

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
The rat is confined to a box, and only one path, par excellence, leads to the "Cheese"; all other paths lead to dead ends, zaps of electricity....

How much freedom does that rat have?

Deep

well off of the rat issue, i dont believe the comparison is aplicable: we are not rats, religion is not a box, and well, i dont think i really need to clerify, but god isnt cheese

ill state this straight foward w/o analogies so as to be clear on my opinion... i think that spirituallity should be reached by a person based on their wanting to be so, not because it is stated that otherwise they are screw (which is alot what the church says)

i dont know if we are accually saying the same thing in that religion limits free will, but i dont belive religion is the end all source to spirituallity

Originally posted by iceofspades
Yeah I understand. When my brother told me Santa didn't exist I went through years of thinking, highs and lows. I was depressed and anorexic. Then I learned again the glorious power of Him. He filled my heart with warmth and my stocking with jelly-beans. They tasted so good! I too am myself and Santa approves. It doesn't get any better than that.

Thanks for the parody. People wonder why I hesitate to present my history. Well, there you go. Enjoy the afterlife ice.

Originally posted by bet555
Oh yeah .. also .. the question I have in my head .... Is "IF IT IS FREEWILL THEN HOW DOES GOD KNOW WHAT IS ALREADY GOING TO HAPPEN ???"

But then I think back on everything and I think, If god is god and he made me we can't understand this. How are we suppose to understand him ?
How he made us and how he made the universe. IN SEVER DAYS ??? Or six if you don't count the REST TIME !!! And god had to rest ... it says it in the bible ... I thought he was god ... He must have made the universe those seven days or something?? Who knows ???

I hate people who ask questions like, "Can god make a rock that he can't pick up?"

It is silly.

God is an omitemporal being in relation to this universe. He is outside of time and therefor sees all points in time occuring at once. In other words, he really does not know what is going to happen. He knows what is happening. Keep in mind this is theoretically from His perspective.

firstly, i am the only one who presented theological arguements from prior teachings of a Holy Book, rather then make conjectures from my presuppositions. secondly, the arguement is not the validity of the scriptures. The arguement is about free will. i clearly indicated that this was the biblical view. therefore, if you don't believe in the bible, you are more than welcome to disagree, but you must acknowledge then that the arguement i presented is not faulted by it's use of the Bible, but rather your lack of faith in it.

daved

I would have never understood that unless it was put just like that ... God is outside of the time spectrum ... So he sees things as they happen. That makes more sense to me then anything I have ever heard. Would that set up the fact that there are alot of spectrums of time ??? Different things happening on different spectrums or is that why people even question it. If god can see all the spectrums then why can't I kinda ideaology. hmm ... Maybe ... TTYL .. GREAT POST !!!! WHOEVER POSTED THAT AMAZING LITTLE SHORT AMAZING POST !!!!

Originally posted by Dasher
firstly, i am the only one who presented theological arguements from prior teachings of a Holy Book, rather then make conjectures from my presuppositions. secondly, the arguement is not the validity of the scriptures. The arguement is about free will. i clearly indicated that this was the biblical view. therefore, if you don't believe in the bible, you are more than welcome to disagree, but you must acknowledge then that the arguement i presented is not faulted by it's use of the Bible, but rather your lack of faith in it.

daved

How can someone have faith in a BIBLE ??? Do you even know what faith is ??? You can believe in a bible I believe but I do not believe that you can have faith in it. Becareful of your wording Dasher or they will pick you apart.

Originally posted by bet555
I would have never understood that unless it was put just like that ... God is outside of the time spectrum ... So he sees things as they happen. That makes more sense to me then anything I have ever heard. Would that set up the fact that there are alot of spectrums of time ??? Different things happening on different spectrums or is that why people even question it. If god can see all the spectrums then why can't I kinda ideaology. hmm ... Maybe ... TTYL .. GREAT POST !!!! WHOEVER POSTED THAT AMAZING LITTLE SHORT AMAZING POST !!!!

Hmm. The thing about varying spectrums of time is that it would mean there would be no need for an actual begginning to all of creation and the universe wouldn't need a god to kickstart it.

And the reason that there wouldn't be a beginning of time is because he is time. For us at least ... And if time to us was stopped and over does that mean that there is no other time conteuem going on anywhere ?

Originally posted by bet555
LadyV ... YOU ARE AMAZING TO START OFF WITH !!! I am not trying to call you dumb ... or anything. But what I was trying to show you is that you have heard alot about Gods. And I am sure you can learn about all of these fake gods that they made up. Hence they have everything figured out with it ... B/C they made them up. But the problem with our mind and the REAL TRUE GOD is that we didn't make him up we can't even imagine him. We can't imagine anything that has to do with heaven. There are going to be colors that we have never seen. What colors are they going to be .. ??? I don't know I cannot imagine another color can you ??? Even though we see other colors all the time. We do not name a color or find out why that particle gives off that radiation or COLOR TO OUR EYE. But anyways .. I am truly sorry if I offended you LadyV ... That was not my point my point is that can you understand God ? I cannot, nor will I be able to untill I can sit down with him and talk. AND sense that will not happen untill I die or some far off place in the future. I will not be able to understand him. Why did he flood the earth I do not know ??? Why did he start off with Just Adam and Eve and if that is true are we alll INbread ??? If we are all inbread why can we not breed together now? Where did all teh colors come from ?? My guess is this one word christians are scared of lol EVOLUTION @!!! OH god ... then they have to learn where did god come from if he were the beginning and the end. How did he make the whole universe in 6 days ... and he is letting people die. ... ?? Why would someone that is made out of love let someone DIE ???? Maybe people do not die after they leave this body ?? Anyone ever die and come back ????

I think that LadyV posts valid questions - Pretty smart if you ask me. I think that when you ask questions like this it doesn't only benefit the person asking the questions, it also hopefully gets the person responding to think a little. We should ALWAYS question what we believe and seek out the truth.

Originally posted by Ashlar

Originally posted by JoeyC
Christianities 'free will' idea sounds more like slavery to me- Act as i have told you to or you will go to hell.......

Hell is about justice, not blackmail. should a murderer go to heaven?

Originally posted by Ashlar

Originally posted by JoeyC
Christianities 'free will' idea sounds more like slavery to me- Act as i have told you to or you will go to hell.......

Hell is about justice, not blackmail. should a murderer go to heaven?

In my view there is no hell as such. The word hell comes from a hebrew word meaning rubbish dump and the idea of the burning in hell bit comes from the fact that in the time of Christ the rubbish dump continually burned

Originally posted by bet555
How can someone have faith in a BIBLE ??? Do you even know what faith is ??? You can believe in a bible I believe but I do not believe that you can have faith in it. Becareful of your wording Dasher or they will pick you apart.

well, the implication is "faith in it's verity." not "faith in it's existence."

daved

LadyV,

Free will in and of itself is rather simple to understand.

I believe the essence of your question is: If God needs to perform behavior modification on us in the form of "threat of punishment", why did he create us with free will? I believe your confusion is justified, as you simply cannot have it both ways and still consider God as a supreme power.

So, that leaves us with 3 possible conclusions:

1. God is misunderstood and is not a supreme power.
2. Our own nature is misunderstood and we do not have free will.
3. The understanding of Hell is misunderstood and it is not truely a "threat of punishment".

I do not agree that the first and the second are accurate. That leads me to believe the issue here is the nature (and interpretation) of Hell.

My search for understanding of the nature of hell is still in its infancy. Any hypothesis I have is still too abstract to properly place into words. But I can tell you that the accepted interpretations of the verses in the bible I have seen do not take into account all the verses that speak of the nature of hell. I do not think you will receive a satisfactory answer on this topic because of these discrepancies.

It tells you in the bible exactly what hell is going to be like. It tells you that there is no Middle place. There is Black and White no gray. Good and Evil no middle ground. Our minds tend to want to play tricks on us. B/c of our free will ... we say well this is ok in this situation. And this is ok in this situation. BUT THIS in this situation is HORRIBLE !!! I don't know who has been speaking to god lately but, I don't know what is right and what is wrong for you ... I can barely figure it out for me. B/c everyone that nkows god and speaks to him daily knows what is right for him/her ... otherwise the person either is not close enoguh to god to care. Or Just DOESN'T CARE @!@@@

Lest we get lost in a semantic labyrinth, I recommend that we agree on the difference between Hell and the Lake Of Fire.

Since the primary reference for these terms is the Book of Revelation, which makes a clear distinction between the two, this isn't exactly a controversial point, but one which needs to be made and should be remembered.

Yes, there are other definitions for these things than those found within the Bible, but for this context, the Biblical definition is most pertinent. Here's an excerpt:

Revelation

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The implication is that residency in the Lake of Fire is permanent, and represents either destruction or eternal torment. Speaking as a former Baptist, the second theory is most prominent among Baptists.

Hell Is Not Forever

Based on Revelation, eternal damnation does not mean existence in Hell, since Hell itself will be destroyed. Thus Hell is a place a spirit may dwell in before it is judged.

Though I am not a Christian, this corroborates my own perceptions of Hell, which I have glimpsed in spirit. The torment of Hell comes from the behavior of those who occupy it, who punish themselves and each other with incredible zeal and persistence.

Those spirits who occupy Hell I call �demons�, which are really just �dark angels�, and they are none other than our brothers and sisters in spirit. They just happen to exist in a bad place for now.

The Lake Of Fire

Whether metaphor or literal cauldron of combustion, condemnation to the Lake of Fire is assumed to be eternal in Christian dogma, although Revelation doesn�t seem to specify that this is the case.

For the sake of discussion, I propose that we assume that the Lake of Fire is a permanent residence for the damned, but if anyone disagrees, I�m interested in hearing about it.

This notion of eternal damnation is where Christian dogma departs from that of many (but not all [Islam]) other systems of belief, and I think this is what lies at the heart of LadyV�s original question.

Is There Freewill In The Face Of Eternal Damnation?

My opinion is that the choice between either servitude or eternal torment, with no alternative, cannot reasonably considered to be a condition of Freewill.

As a footnote, I refer my Christian friends to the following point made by �infallible� scripture:

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Whatever you might believe in contradiction of this, it doesn�t get any more literal than that. If you believe what Revelation is telling you, then you believe you will be judged according to your works.

Thus the question of Hell, Eternal Damnation and Freewill is not necessarily an academic one, even for Christians.



[edit on 11/3/2004 by Majic]

Originally posted by Emily_Cragg
It's utterly amazing to me that people take the words of Saul of Tarsus--who contradicted Yeshua Ben Joseph all over the place--and make them equal to our Savior and Messiah's words.

Never will I do that.

Paul objected to Yeshua's utilizing women in His ministry; he directed women to be silent and keep their heads covered. Yeshua did no such thing.

paul spoke this about women in regards to teaching/leadership, not simply general service in the body.

Originally posted by Emily_Cragg
Paul objected to Yeshua's saying, "I come not to bring peace but division"; saying instead, "Let you all be in agreement."

Jesus's words are in regards to bringing a spiritual divide of servitude unto God or servitude unto death. paul is speaking about angry exchanges in social situations.

Originally posted by Emily_Cragg
Paul objected to Yeshua's saying, "Pay what is Caesar's to Caesar; but what is God's to God"; but said instead: "Let all be in subjection to the superior authorities."

so one should pay taxes in order to render to the gov what is rightfully theirs, and render to God what is rightfully God's. And Paul said to be in subjection to the gov. hmm. i am having trouble following the contradiction you see.

Originally posted by Emily_Cragg
Paul talked in 23 places about "mysteries." Yeshua said: "You shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free." He never spoke of mysteries.

He didn't speak of the mystery because He is the mystery.

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

daved

Excellent post, I was already looking up the same quotes prior to reading your post. You saved me the trouble. I voted you up for that.

Lady V this relates to our last conversation, as to why not all Christians feel the need to preach endlessly to those that will not listen. If their Hearts are hardened to what you are saying, then this may be what God has chosen for them, or what God has chosen for them at this point in their life. What good does it do to show up at someone like that�s door every Sunday morning, you cannot change that persons heart, only God can.

I hope you see that some of this stuff is deep and deeply interconnected, and impossible to try and explain to someone with short layman�s term answers.

Originally posted by Majic
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Whatever you might believe in contradiction of this, it doesn�t get any more literal than that. If you believe what Revelation is telling you, then you believe you will be judged according to your works.

Thus the question of Hell, Eternal Damnation and Freewill is not necessarily an academic one, even for Christians.

fallible it is to take a spiritual thing and force it into a literal understanding. is there really a sea where all the dead reside? can someone be "in" death? or are these things non-literal explainations of something beyond our understanding or simply hard to understand? thusly, how do we claim to understand something by reading only this one scripture? my prior arguements contained many verses to consider. they do not cancel out things such as "according to your own works," they divide the understanding further.


1Cr 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ [from another]? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive [it], why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received [it]?
1Cr 4:8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.

we do not have unless it was given. we are to not put one man above another because of this.


Act 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

so God does not respect people, but wait! He does if they choose Him!(sarcasm) OR, might it be that their choosing is only possible by God's giving? maybe we should take into account more scriptures?


2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

God does not respect any man over another because we are all equally dirt. NOTHING we can do (including choosing) changes that.


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


daved