Worker admits cutting 10 babies at abortion clinic

Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by HappyWarrior

 

Fear can be a powerful motivator.

That seriously boggles the mind, that words or the fear or repercussions from those words can cause someone to commit murder against a child (or anyone for that matter).

The only reason you are at all surprised is because the Milgram Experiment isn't taught to all people before they enter the "real world".

Of course there is an obvious reason why it isn't widely taught. Once someone understands it... it is orders of magnitude more difficult to get them to automatically follow directives from an authority.

edit on 20-3-2013 by ErgoTheConclusion because: (no reason given)

I hope OP read your post, because I think it contains the answer she is looking for. I was shocked (no pun intended) the first time I heard about this study. I just can't imagine that I would comply the same way these subjects did. I guess we don't know human nature as well as we think we do.

She earned about $10 an hour — off the books — to administer drugs, perform ultrasounds, help with abortions and dispose of fetal remains from 2005 to 2008.

She once had to kill a baby delivered in a toilet, cutting its neck with scissors, she said. Asked if she knew that was wrong, she said, "At first I didn't."

How can anyone not know that killing a baby with scissors is wrong?

This entire thing is sick, in my opinion.

The article also mentions a 'large and pink baby' estimated at 30 weeks gestation. At 30 weeks, the baby could have easily survived. Hell, at that point, she only would have had a few more weeks to go until the babe would have been full term. Why on earth would you wait until you were that far along to have an abortion?! A few more weeks and she could have just as easily given him up for adoption if she truly didn't want him.

I hope the guy rots in his cell for the rest of his natural life.

*Disclaimer: I am pro-life and I will not debate my stance.

Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by HappyWarrior

 

Fear can be a powerful motivator.

That seriously boggles the mind, that words or the fear or repercussions from those words can cause someone to commit murder against a child (or anyone for that matter).

The only reason you are at all surprised is because the Milgram Experiment isn't taught to all people before they enter the "real world".

Of course there is an obvious reason why it isn't widely taught. Once someone understands it... it is orders of magnitude more difficult to get them to automatically follow directives from an authority.

edit on 20-3-2013 by ErgoTheConclusion because: (no reason given)

I actually thought most people were aware of this.

Personally? I could be compelled to be cruel to an adult.. or someone who I dont consider an "innocent" or able to fight back. I can NOT be compelled to harm something innocent or incapable of defense of itself. Being Pro Choice isnt an issue in this "abortion Dr" article... the issue here is plainly murder in the most heinous circumstance. Those who were complicit should be charged the same as the Dr. My ego would allow me to be a monster to some, but my loud annoying conscience and personal code of ethics would prevent me from harming an infant even if it meant my death.. much less something as small as losing a job.

I tried to visualize if I could perform the actions that I just read about in this thread. I'm known to be a cold, heartless kind of person. I ran the scenario through my mind a dozen times and each time the outcome was the same. I found myself severing the doctors spine, instead.

Originally posted by Exitt

Originally posted by SeenAlot
I'm pro-choice. I'd work at a clinic. You couldn't get me to do this work. No only would would a boss NOT find the work complete, but recieve a considerable amount of Verbal abuse on my way out the door. I will not play Igor to your Dr. Frankenstein.

You are contradicting yourself a little. In many cases of late abortion, children are legally being stabbed with scissors in utero, or their necks are snapped just before the rest of the body comes out. That is legal late abortion for you. Read up.

I am pro-choice as well but let's not kid ourselves. Not every abortion is a lump of cells of a 4 week gestational embryo.

I could never work at such a clinic and if i was in power 12 weeks would be the legal limit.

I would make that 9, but basically first trimester and sunction only, so within time frame of most spontaneous abortions. Anything else, if a woman had week heart for example, would be negotiating the best time to deliver a preemie, giving both the highest chance say, so there would be some decisions but not dismemberment or murder.

By 22 weeks, most survive premature birth so they're babies.

Semantics and baby execution, indeed we are living in a modern Sodom and Gomora. The amount of terrible decisions compounded leading up to the situation of even considering such an action is absurd to me. Sorry ladys don't justify murder on the back of a man that was just as horny for not "controlling himself", yes the man was part of the situation but atleast they KNOW that there body isn't menstruating or primed for creating another life..,,,YOU are responsible for YOUR ACTIONS. There are no excuses when condoms, birth control, etc are readily available on top of just being able to control yourself. Then again ive overheard both men and woman saying its worth the risk cause having sex without a condom is that much better, how pathetic we've become.

reply to post by silo13


i can understand how someone could use a medical basis for declaring the a 6 month old fetus is not "life". Not that i agree with them...but the logic used is well established/understood regardless of agreement or grimness.

But to kill a baby that is 6 months past its birthdate....that is a special kind of "wrong".

Fry them all.

reply to post by Blarneystoner

All you have to do is look at the attrocities commited by 'normal' people during WWII under the Nazi regime. Most were just 'doing their jobs' as they hearded thousands of Jews into the gas chambers.

More than likely it’s the same type of ‘mind set’. It’s just hard for me to equate an every day work experience with a war time effort and come out in my head that they’re somehow equal.

peace and thanks again

reply to post by kaylaluv

I hope OP read your post, because I think it contains the answer she is looking for.

Yes, I did read about the Milgram experiment I’ve just not been back to reply.

IMO the Milgram is too ‘pat’ and answer. I honestly know I would not shock someone. I’ve spoken about this experiment to MANY people over the years and have found no one to date who would shock another human.

I’ve never believed that test and I never will. Maybe that’s my choice. To chose people are better than that. Sure, I think there’s something to it - but I believe the results were exaggerated.

All that being said - there’s still something dark and evil and just...I don’t know - just freakin’ beyond my belief someone would do what these ‘workers’ did because they were under duress or persuaded or whatever excuse they want to use for following the ‘orders’ of the doctor.

peace

The whole thing is a bad movie waiting to be made.

Gosnell at the top and the aide killing babies..The female claiming to be a doctor even though she was not.

I live in Philadelphia and that part of the city is economically challenged to say the least. Still people made choices. I hold Gosnell and his crew accountable as much as I hold every single woman that went into that office accountable.

It's not for me to decide if abortion should be legal or not but what I know is the women that chose to go in there and deal with the supposed conditions they saw are just as guilty as anyone else involved.

reply to post by RedbeardedFoo

Then again ive overheard both men and woman saying its worth the risk cause having sex without a condom is that much better, how pathetic we've become.

What we’ve become? How about what we’ve been all along not what we’ve ‘become’.

Since boy met girl women have become pregnant beyond their desire to be so. As early or late as the first missed period in history women have also controlled the outcome of their own bodies by using natural herbs such as pennyroyal to abort their fetuses.

Right or wrong? Abortion is NOTHING new. It’s just since patriarchal society kicked in and got involved that abortion's gotten all blown out of proportion.

peace

reply to post by opethPA

It's not for me to decide if abortion should be legal or not but what I know is the women that chose to go in there and deal with the supposed conditions they saw are just as guilty as anyone else involved.

I starred your response as I do all posts in threads I host but honestly I almost wish I could take it back.

The last part of this quote above makes me hang my head in sadness. So many people just cannot fathom poverty and the rights and choices robbed from the poor due to their financial lack. It’s so incredible sad you can’t recognize that. You sound like you’re a champion for the unborn but I have to ask what kind of mindset do you posses that can champion an unborn but not the poor women at the same time?

(The following is not necessarily directed at you)

That’s one huge problem I have with people who actively remove choices from women, the poor, and children. They exercise their moral right to control others while at the same time condemning and kicking to the curb the people and situations they either chose to never understand - or simply can never understand.

peace

I can honestly say this is the first thread in ats history that made me puke. I absolutely can not believe what I've read. I hope everyone of those who participated in this suffer the consequences, in the worst possible way. They should be killed, in the same way they killed others.

I actually just used this quote in a different thread, and seems it fits here as well: The claim 'I was only following orders' has been used to justify too many tragedies in our history."

Following orders is no excuse for this disgusting behavior.

The Yahoo article linked in the OP has this line in it:

Abortions are typically performed in utero.

Why yes they are... by definition.
After a fetus comes outside of the mother it is a baby, and snipping its spinal cord at that point is called murder.

If not, then a person can slip into a hospital and snip spinal cords in the NICU ward and all he would be charged with is performing unlicensed abortions???

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by Blarneystoner

 

All you have to do is look at the attrocities commited by 'normal' people during WWII under the Nazi regime. Most were just 'doing their jobs' as they hearded thousands of Jews into the gas chambers.

More than likely it’s the same type of ‘mind set’. It’s just hard for me to equate an every day work experience with a war time effort and come out in my head that they’re somehow equal.

peace and thanks again

Yep.... I'm familiar w/several experiments that prove a person can be made to to unconscionable things to another human being if the conditions are right. Mostly the person is being directed by some percieved authority figure. All it took for some folks was to be told by someone wearing a white lab coat and glasses that it was OK to deliver a shock to someone.

It's a fairly well known control tactic and for the most part, works every time. We are programmed from day one to obey our elders, superiors, etc....

So... I have a hard time blaming the perp in this case.... knowing that most would have probably done the same thing. It's human nature....


ETA - Forgive me.... someone has already mentioned the Milgram experiments.

Originally posted by opethPA

It's not for me to decide if abortion should be legal or not but what I know is the women that chose to go in there and deal with the supposed conditions they saw are just as guilty as anyone else involved.

As are the men who got them in that situation. My solution is to provide free vasectomies to all young men before they become sexually active. Even better, offer a financial incentive - say.. 500 bucks. If they want to have children when they're older - pay the $500 back to have it reversed. Problem solved.

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by opethPA

 

It's not for me to decide if abortion should be legal or not but what I know is the women that chose to go in there and deal with the supposed conditions they saw are just as guilty as anyone else involved.

I starred your response as I do all posts in threads I host but honestly I almost wish I could take it back.

The last part of this quote above makes me hang my head in sadness. So many people just cannot fathom poverty and the rights and choices robbed from the poor due to their financial lack. It’s so incredible sad you can’t recognize that. You sound like you’re a champion for the unborn but I have to ask what kind of mindset do you posses that can champion an unborn but not the poor women at the same time?

(The following is not necessarily directed at you)

That’s one huge problem I have with people who actively remove choices from women, the poor, and children. They exercise their moral right to control others while at the same time condemning and kicking to the curb the people and situations they either chose to never understand - or simply can never understand.

peace

Im not trying to turn this into an abortion is right or wrong discussion and I don't hold the women accountable for wanting to have an abortion.

What I do hold them accountable for is going into what is supposed to be a medical establishment where nothing was sanitized correctly, none of the credentials were current and in general as per the reporting about it everything seemed shady. You can try and play the economic card and to an extent that is applicable in determining where they go first but common sense is also applicable and should have been applied once they saw the conditions within the establishment.

"Hey look , their is a fetus that just had its neck severed sitting out on a table this seems like a good place to get an abortion" ..Sorry being economically challenged doesn't equal a free pass when it comes to this situation.

Don't read into that me saying these women are horrible for need\wanting an abortion. Nope but they were certainly in the wrong, some of the going back multiple times, to a place that clearly was not legit.

The "pro-choice" argument doesn't hold up under close scrutiny.

However, the procedure is a medical one and as such, falls under the protection of the Dr./Patient relationship. I know of no other medical procedure that is restricted by law unless it falls outside the bounds of accepted practice.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

But to kill a baby that is 6 months past its birthdate....that is a special kind of "wrong".

It would be a different story if that were the case, but, that isn't what happened.

The six months is referring to gestational age.

He was performing late term abortions and in some cases, the babies were born alive, and the staff 'finished' the job.

reply to post by silo13

The last part of this quote above makes me hang my head in sadness. So many people just cannot fathom poverty and the rights and choices robbed from the poor due to their financial lack. It’s so incredible sad you can’t recognize that. You sound like you’re a champion for the unborn but I have to ask what kind of mindset do you posses that can champion an unborn but not the poor women at the same time?

I don't think that poverty makes it okay.

Everyone knows that sex can potentially lead to pregnancy; if you are having sex, you must be prepared for that possible outcome. Birth control is widely available and is FREE for low income individuals. Condoms are also available for free at these places as well.

If you are living in poverty, there is no good reason that efforts should not be made to prevent pregnancy, especially since birth control is handed out for free.

I understand that these measures can fail (and they do), but, if more than one method is being used, chances are very low. And, in this day and age condoms are 100% necessary for prevention of disease which is absolutely rampant.

Do I feel sorry for a poverty stricken woman that didn't do enough prevent an unwanted pregnancy, and, then runs to a substandard, poor excuse for a medical facility to abort her unwanted baby? No.

The only person I feel bad for in this situation is the baby.

Disclaimer: I know what it is like to live in poverty.

I am anti-abortion. I understand that my view might not be a popular one, but, we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs.