Independence: Curse or Cure?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

"God" made the decision to sever that relationship because he could have put that tree anywhere, but he put it in the one place they could reach it. How is that our fault?

true!
But don't you agree that doing a mistake is the only way to learn?
The idea is to 'learn' rather than complaining that "it wasn't our fault!" and so refuse to learn.

The lesson is that the Creator knows better whats good and whats bad for the creation. The creation can either try for themselves and waste the life in finding it out and ultimately say, "Oh God, you were right"
or let go and accept the advice and use the life to do better things.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Very interesting, I agree with you. I'll give my perspective for my detail of my way of thinking:

"Declaring independence will result in evil because apart from Me, you can only draw upon yourself."

So independence is the seed of evil, apparently. This, in itself, gave me pause. How often has our species seized its independence and found prosperity as a result?

The problem with what "God" (as this being declares himself to be) is saying... is that even if this was true that by independence we can only draw upon ourselves... then whose fault would that be for designing such individuals that would need to be insufficient and dependent on others?

This is like saying, I designed you to be evil when you are not in my presence, therefore only stay in my presence or you'll be evil and it'll be YOUR fault. This is not free-will because what if you want to leave his presence and still be a good person? Then you can't by his own words... it should be your choice to want to leave the presence and still be able to do "good".

"Relationships are never about power, and one way to avoid the will to power is to choose to limit oneself - to serve."

How about you married folks out there? Or parents? Does this sound like your relationship, or a relationship you'd like to have? Servant and master? My relationships have never been about serving, but sharing. There's a difference.

I agree with you. I don't see a relationship as "servant and master" - the only relationship that can possibly be is a slave relationship to his master, or a worker's relationship to his boss.

A parent-child relationship would be to TEACH the child of basic wisdom like compassion not to be dependent on them for their entire lives. Independence is the sign that your child has grown and became self-sufficient without the need to rely on others.

I tried to do the "Service to Others" thing and if felt completely unnatural. When we focus on Self and doing things for our selves we can show ourselves as unique individuals choosing by our preferences. When we focus on Others we are only giving and not building our character with our preferences.

Share seems to be the balance between "Only Giving" (Being a Servant) and "Only Taking".

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
"To begin with, that you can't grasp the wonder of my nature is rather a good thing. Who wants to worship a God who can be fully comprehended, eh? Not much mystery in that."

Not being able to comprehend 'God's "nature" means that even if 'God' is "good" we would not be able to understand "goodness". So if we cannot understand goodness how do we know that this God is good in the first place?

I agree with you, it is morally (and thus spiritually) "risky".

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

"Submission is not about authority and it is not obedience; it is all about relationships of love and respect."

Another nonsense statement from this "God". Submission can only be able obedience. In order to submit there must be something that you are submitting to...

There is a difference between respect - showing a mutual kindness to someone, and submission - giving a way your will to be under the will of another.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

"The world is broken because in Eden you abandoned relationship with us to assert your own independence."

The fruit gave knowledge of good and evil, so Adam and Eve can not be accountable for eating the fruit.

This is like telling a baby that doesn't know how to speak 'not to do something' and then punishing the baby. Not only is this not love, but this is bad judgment on the parent's part.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

"Being my follower is not trying to 'be like Jesus', it means for your independence to be killed."

To give up independence means relying on another. Relying on another will give them the ability to control you. You will be weak and not learn to grow and to take care of yourself.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Um...? I'm not sure where to begin with that one. Incestuous relationships bring spiritual fulfillment? Independence is Satanic? Submission is not about love, but we are all encouraged to submit to the will of the highest of high? We're supposed to serve, rather than share? I don't know. Maybe I'm just dumb.

This probably sounds nice to the religious "God loves me so I need to do whatever he says - he's protecting me", they see God like some sort of all-powerful "Father" figure not understanding that the benefit of being independent is to grow stronger and to take care of oneself. So they actually grow weak and become stupid not seeking to learn and grow strong.

reply to post by logical7


We're being persecuted for being imperfect. I think there's plenty of reason to be upset. And if this deity doesn't exist, we're still worshipping what we think is perfection, when we know nothing about perfection. We are doing our best to resist who we are because we're terrified of the risks it entails.

So again - is independence a curse, or a cure? The Bible says it's a curse. I say it's a cure. What do you think?

reply to post by arpgme


I've seen you arguing both sides of the fence on ATS. What is your stance, spiritually?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


The two main views I see is "All is One" meaning that ego makes individuality, preferences, desires, conflict and we should release all individuality to be as one - to go back to the source and let all take care of everything. Releasing our will/personality to become "one" with All/God.

The other view is "The One is All" meaning "The One" is to source and all individuals are connected to it as divine beings each able to have different experiences and add "flavor/personality" to all.

This is the view Is seem to agree with (One is all). I don't believe we should sacrifice our individuality. I believe we are individual human bodies and spirits to express ourselves as individuals and that the Unity is actually the source from which we came and continue to experience more and more and learn more about ourselves and preferences...

To make it short, I hold these virtues when it comes to spirituality:

- Freedom (being free to make one's choices to grow as an individual and better understand oneself)
- Acceptance (allowing others to express themselves as individuals - not trying to control them)
- Compassion (Sharing/Helping others, this keeps a balanced platform for us to be free)*

* When we have compassion for one in bondage - the struggle of life - or taken over by others - by helping and protecting them we ensure our own freedom and for others to be there for us in our struggles.

reply to post by arpgme

The two main views I see is "All is One" meaning that ego makes individuality, preferences, desires, conflict and we should release all individuality to be as one - to go back to the source and let all take care of everything. Releasing our will/personality to become "one" with All/God.

The other view is "The One is All" meaning "The One" is to source and all individuals are connected to it as divine beings each able to have different experiences and add "flavor/personality" to all.

Like looking at two different sides of a penny. It's one penny, but each side reveals something about it that the other side didn't.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

We're being persecuted for being imperfect. I think there's plenty of reason to be upset. And if this deity doesn't exist, we're still worshipping what we think is perfection, when we know nothing about perfection. We are doing our best to resist who we are because we're terrified of the risks it entails.

i don't get it. How are we being persecuted?
What are we resisting and because of what risk?

So again - is independence a curse, or
a cure? The Bible says it's a curse. I say
it's a cure. What do you think?

its not a curse!! How we would have learned anything if we din't had independence. The church wanted control by offering salvation to those who would give up their independence.

It's beneficial/'a cure' if we know our place in the Grand scheme.

I believe their is a God.
I am dependent/thankful for my every need on/to that God.
When i accept that, i don't need a priest or imam to tell me to do things blindly, they'l get insulted if they tell me to do things that insult reasoning/understanding.

I think that "when you Bow down to the Almighty, you can stand up to anyone else and would never have to bow to any human" and vice versa.

i am not giving up independence, i have the backing of Almighty on my side.

Would you be losing independence if the President told you that if you accept him as Presisdent then you can do whatever you want so long as it doesn't hurt anyone and also follow traffic rules, would you complain that traffic rules take away your independence?
Would you deny the President's offer and break the rules and get punished?

reply to post by logical7

i don't get it. How are we being persecuted?
What are we resisting and because of what risk?

If the Bible is fully accurate, I am going to hell. No doubt about that. Why? Because I have established by independence. I have chosen a different destiny than decreed by the god of the Bible. And if I have not chosen a different destiny, then the Bible is a lie, for it has promised us free will.

I disdain the god of the Bible for punishing us, for demanding our allegiance in return for forgiveness. Forgiveness for what? Because he made us imperfect, and he has shifted that blame onto us. We are resisting our flaws because we are afraid of the pain that comes of being imperfect. Because we are taught those flaws are bad. But they're not bad, anymore than an imperfection in a statue is bad. It gives us flavor, character, appreciation, value. It makes us unique.

Apparently, 'unique' isn't what we were meant to be. Otherwise, we wouldn't need to reconcile ourselves for being imperfect. And that's where the dependence come in. The book was very insistent upon us being dependent.

i am not giving up independence, i have the backing of Almighty on my side.

You depend on your god for emotional security. If I had the time and resources, I could come up with an entire book of case studies proving the likelihood that your god is a psychological trick used for stabilizing your psyche. Nothing more. This means that every miracle is your own to make. Your only obstacle is your imagination and your determination.

That's what I call independence.

reply to post by logical7


But that's not all "God" does and you know it. He is a lot more controlling than a government and a government is already controlling enough. He even tells you what foods you can and cannot put in your body (In Leviticus of the bible).

Proverbs 3:5-6 says to submit to God and do not trust wisdom/understanding. Only trust him.

This is clearly AGAINST independence...

reply to post by AfterInfinity

If the Bible is fully accurate, I am going to hell. No doubt about that. Why? Because I have established by independence.

you are not going to hell that sure.

A religious woman who locked up a cat causing it to die of hunger went to hell.
A prostitute who gave water to a thirsty dog got heaven because of that act.

Independence is not a bad thing in itself. It depends on what your intentions are and does it make you a better person or the opposite.

I have chosen a
different destiny than decreed by the
god of the Bible. And if I have not chosen a different destiny, then the
Bible is a lie, for it has promised us free
will.

you can't choose a 'different' destiny. You make choices and the destiny thats already written comes true.
You are still free as you don't know what that destiny is.

If you choose not to cross a road because of some fear and remain stuck on one side then you din't change anything, this was your destiny and you are fully responsible for it.

We are resisting our flaws because we are afraid of the
pain that comes of being imperfect.
Because we are taught those flaws are
bad. But they're not bad, anymore
than an imperfection in a statue is bad.
It gives us flavor, character, appreciation, value. It makes us
unique

thats very true and i agree.
But who is asking perfection?? If you think its God then, i don't agree.
We don't have flaws. We are just unique and we better appreciate it and not want to be like others, an idol, a celebrity, that elusive exact shape,weight and height etc.

Prophet Muhammad pbuh said that each individual is like a gold mine.

Its sad that most will never realise that and just exist like robots because running after daily needs will take up most of the time.

You depend on your god for
emotional security. If I had the time
and resources, I could come up with
an entire book of case studies proving
the likelihood that your god is a
psychological trick used for stabilizing your psyche. Nothing more. This
means that every miracle is your own
to make. Your only obstacle is your
imagination and your determination. That's what I call independence.

you don't have to prove. I know GOD is a very beneficial psychological 'trick'. So good that a theist is likely to live 10 years more.
It doesn't however prove that God is not real as you claim.

The miracle happens because humans have been created with that 'need' to know that someone is higher than them.

A simple example is that you have a sense of justice and when you watch injustice and see the victim suffer and the criminal walk away you can't cope with it. If there is no God then life is just unjust and cruel. Thats very depressing for sure.

Thats the price to pay to have an illusion of complete independence.

reply to post by arpgme

But that's not all "God" does and you know it. He is a lot more controlling than a government and a government is already controlling enough. He even tells you what foods you can and cannot put in your body (In Leviticus of the bible).

hmm.. Ya, it must be so bad that God tells only to eat clean animals like sheep, goats, cows etc and avoid a scavenger, a vacuum cleaner of nature whose meat gets spoiled so fast and contains so many parasites that it has to be irradiated to make it eatable.

Is eating selected foods so much interfering with your independence? Is eating whatever you want the only expression of your independence?

reply to post by logical7

Independence is not a bad thing in itself. It depends on what your intentions are and does it make you a better person or the opposite.

That's not how Christians interpret it. If they were so fond of spiritual independence, they would have learned to create their own miracles instead of becoming complacent.

you can't choose a 'different' destiny. You make choices and the destiny thats already written comes true.
You are still free as you don't know what that destiny is.

In other words, free will is the result of ignorance? So what's the point of living at all? You're not living, you are simply manifesting. A preexisting idea is manifesting itself through you, regardless of what you desire. Or is our desire matched to the preexisting idea for compatibility purposes?

Such manipulation reeks of arrogance. To toy with sentience in such a manner is horrid.

thats very true and i agree.
But who is asking perfection?? If you think its God then, i don't agree.
We don't have flaws. We are just unique and we better appreciate it and not want to be like others, an idol, a celebrity, that elusive exact shape,weight and height etc.

It has been made clear, time and time again, that perfection is part of what entitles the Judaic god to the position to which the human species has exalted it. As such, those who admire that quality tend to emulate it - or at least, they emulate the rendition that has been handed down through generations.

But what idea does an imperfect species have of any sort of perfection? A species that is always wanting will never know perfection, because perfection is to be content.

you don't have to prove. I know GOD is a very beneficial psychological 'trick'. So good that a theist is likely to live 10 years more.

Does the end justify the means?

It doesn't however prove that God is not real as you claim.

It doesn't prove that a conscious all-powerful ruler is as real as you claim, either. Rather, it proves that our thoughts and beliefs have a very real effect on our biology. This has been a substantial case for a while now.

The miracle happens because humans have been created with that 'need' to know that someone is higher than them.

No, humans have a fear of being afraid.

A simple example is that you have a sense of justice and when you watch injustice and see the victim suffer and the criminal walk away you can't cope with it. If there is no God then life is just unjust and cruel. Thats very depressing for sure.

Thats the price to pay to have an illusion of complete independence.

That's because of the values we have come to uphold in today's world. Money pays more than kindness.

reply to post by logical7

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by arpgme

 

Is eating selected foods so much interfering with your independence? Is eating whatever you want the only expression of your independence?

Yes, eating selected foods is interfering with one's independence as food choices are one's preferences. No, it is not the "only" expressions" of "independence" but it is ONE expression and that shows that it is not all about "loving your neighbor" it is control.

reply to post by arpgme

Yes, eating selected foods is interfering with one's independence as food choices are one's preferences. No, it is not the "only" expressions" of "independence" but it is ONE expression and that shows that it is not all about "loving your neighbor" it is control.

hmm.. So when a doctor tells a patient with heart disease to avoid pork, he is seeking to CONTROL?

I seriously doubt what we eat or not eat affects God in any way, so who would benefit?
Its about trust, if you trust advice of a doctor who learned a bit about human body, then what about advice from the Creator of that body?

reply to post by logical7


Choice of food is not the only kind of independence, and you know it.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

That's not how Christians interpret it. If they were so fond of spiritual independence, they would have learned to create their own miracles instead of becoming complacent.

i cannot speak for how christians interpret it.
Jesus pbuh however did promise greater miracles to people who believe.

In other words, free will is the result of
ignorance? So what's the point of
living at all? You're not living, you are
simply manifesting. A preexisting idea
is manifesting itself through you,
regardless of what you desire. Or is our desire matched to the preexisting
idea for compatibility purposes?

its just a vast imbalance of knowledge, we with a tiny bit and God with Absolute.
You try to look it from God's perspective and don't get it. No surprise there, as you are not God.

Such manipulation reeks of arrogance.
To toy with sentience in such a
manner is horrid.

maybe to you because you want to be god. You are not existing by yourself, you were created!! The Creator is Higher and by that virtue He is All knowing and you are ignorant in comparison.
I don't know if you know the story of an arrogant frog and the bull,
a boasting big frog claims he is biggest to a bunch to tiny frogs and his ego is shattered when a bull passes by but he claims he can get bigger than the bull and begins puffing himself up to chants of other frogs "not yet!!" and ulimately explodes!!!
Know your place in the Grand Design, you are not the Designer. Is it so difficult to accept? Do you even think that you have the intellect to actually criticize the Designer?
Its not God who is arrogant.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

It has been made clear, time and time again, that perfection is part of what entitles the Judaic god to the position to which the human species has exalted it. As such, those who admire that quality tend to emulate it - or at least, they emulate the rendition that has been handed down through generations.

God is Perfect, so He is God. Who said that we have to reach that level? Thats blasphemous!! And Impossible!
We just have to learn from his attributes and be good to fellow humans.

A species that is always wanting will
never know perfection, because
perfection is to be content.

yes happiness is in contentment, it not aboùt seeking perfection, its about discovering our own potentials and everyone has ùnique ones. Its about making a rainbow by individual colours not an assembly line of God obeying colourless humanoids.

It doesn't prove that a conscious all-
powerful ruler is as real as you claim,
either. Rather, it proves that our
thoughts and beliefs have a very real
effect on our biology. This has been a
substantial case for a while now.

no it doesn't prove existence of God. But if you believe that believing in God is an evolutionary fault and if it helps us live longer then it will stay. Right?

No, humans have a fear of being
afraid.

what??

That's because of the values we have
come to uphold in today's world.
Money pays more than kindness.

again, what?? What happened to survival of fittest?
Your reply doesnt even answer what i asked, how you cope that injustice can happen and there would be no justice done, do you hope that it will change? How?

reply to post by logical7

God is Perfect, so He is God. Who said that we have to reach that level? Thats blasphemous!! And Impossible!

Is it blasphemous to emulate your father, to seek to transcend him? I think it's blasphemous to forbid your child from ever attempting to surpass you. The greatest legacy you can have is to give the world something better than yourself. If you cannot stand to be anything less than 1st place, you don't deserve to be in 1st place. For someone who is always pushing the importance of humility, "God" seems to be quite devoid of it.

yes happiness is in contentment, it not aboùt seeking perfection, its about discovering our own potentials and everyone has ùnique ones. Its about making a rainbow by individual colours not an assembly line of God obeying colourless humanoids.

Then why is his perfection so important to us? Why do we admire it so much if it's so irrelevant?

no it doesn't prove existence of God. But if you believe that believing in God is an evolutionary fault and if it helps us live longer then it will stay. Right?

I believe we emulate that which we admire. The Judaic god is a piss poor role model...especially with all this 'independence is evil' rubbish.

No, humans have a fear of being
afraid.

what??

Exactly what I said. Humans are afraid of having to be afraid. Perfection, to the human species, represents the complete lack of fear and struggle because so few recognize the value of fear and struggling. Few recognize that without shadow, the candle is just a flickery decorative piece. Only when the candle becomes necessary do we learn how to appreciate it...and for the candle to become necessary, there must be darkness.

See my thread on divinity, in my signature. All the details are there.

again, what?? What happened to survival of fittest?
Your reply doesnt even answer what i asked, how you cope that injustice can happen and there would be no justice done, do you hope that it will change? How?

Again, money pays more than kindness. Materialism, animalism, physicality. That was my point. When you begin to rely more on the physical aspects of reality, your begin to respond more to the physical aspects. That's when money pays more than kindness, because flashy diamond rings and fast cars are purchased with money and not Hallmark gift cards.

And at that point, intangible concepts lose their value because they just don't leave as big an impression or provide as great a stimulation as those things you can buy at the store that hypnotize and shock you. And that's when a god is no longer needed. When's the last time we were bedazzled by a god? When's the last time you were bedazzled at a nightclub or a concert? Which answer leaves you more satisfied?

Those with a greater imagination will be able to resist the physical world. Those who prefer the simplicity of psychological Novacain will have a much harder time resisting. That's why spirituality is losing its grip. No one cares. They are too distracted by our material mastery. Our independence has established a new line of miracles, and your deity is no longer needed.

That's what I mean.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I think it's blasphemous to forbid your child from ever attempting to surpass you. The greatest legacy you can have is to give the world something better than yourself.

you take the analogy too far, a human son can surpass his human father.
God is not a man in clouds who's creation can be better.
You have to get an idea of God or you just make assumptions and hold them true and judge everything by your own too. You are just playing with your own thoughts and feel how right you are!!

That's why
spirituality is losing its grip. No one cares. They are too distracted by our
material mastery. Our independence
has established a new line of miracles,
and your deity is no longer needed. That's what I mean.

you mean materialism is taking hold and independence is the cause. Well then the prediction of God will also come true. The nation which does that will get destroyed. Its not God who does it directly, its a natural consequence.

As simple as spilling gas on a hay stack and lighting a match to it, the factors leading to downfall of a civilization are just a lot more complex but the cause is striving towards 'absolute independence' through Godlessness.
Humans have a law to obey just like any living being.
If a deer seeks independence to go to party in a lion's den then it would be a great party at least for the lions.
Animals know their limits instintively, humans have the brains to learn them and the choice to ignore them but then they can't avoid the consequences too.

What you demand as 'independence' can be simply put as "freedom to choose anything even if it harms self or others"
if you don't want that then you have to obey some rules and thats what God's law is.
You may think you know better but its likely just arrogance.

reply to post by logical7

you take the analogy too far, a human son can surpass his human father.
God is not a man in clouds who's creation can be better.

Everything you know about your god, you got from a pile of obscure documents written by ignorant sheepherders both oppressed by political intrigue and confounded by natural phenomena. You have taken your doctrine from uneducated farmers. Do not act as though you have the slightest bit of credibility in believing such nonsense, because I could take the dream journal of a 5 year old child and it would have just as much substance as your belief system.

Not to mention the astonishing amount of plagiarism that went into creating your believed dogma...but we won't go into that.

You have to get an idea of God or you just make assumptions and hold them true and judge everything by your own too. You are just playing with your own thoughts and feel how right you are!!

See my response above.

you mean materialism is taking hold and independence is the cause. Well then the prediction of God will also come true. The nation which does that will get destroyed. Its not God who does it directly, its a natural consequence.

Independence will free us from the necessity of debasing ourselves for the appeasement of an invisible perfectionist dictator. Maybe then we can pull our heads from our rectal cavities and actually get on with our existence.

As simple as spilling gas on a hay stack and lighting a match to it, the factors leading to downfall of a civilization are just a lot more complex but the cause is striving towards 'absolute independence' through Godlessness.

Ah, but that's an earthly example. That doesn't apply to "God".

Humans have a law to obey just like any living being.
If a deer seeks independence to go to party in a lion's den then it would be a great party at least for the lions.

So "God" is a vicious carnivorous feline?

Animals know their limits instintively, humans have the brains to learn them and the choice to ignore them but then they can't avoid the consequences too.

We're discussing sentient beings here. Animals have nothing to do with it, so stay on topic.

What you demand as 'independence' can be simply put as "freedom to choose anything even if it harms self or others"

No. It could be simply put as "take some damn responsibility for your kids and stop judging them because of your own shortcomings."

if you don't want that then you have to obey some rules and thats what God's law is.
You may think you know better but its likely just arrogance.

Oh, I'm arrogant? I'm arrogant for wanting to be accepted for who I am instead of being treated like a steaming pile of fecal matter because I'm not the sycophantic servant "God" wanted? I'm arrogant for wanting that for all of us? I'm arrogant for expecting this loving and benevolent deity to actually do something with his power instead of acting like the helpless blonde victims you see in Spiderman comics?

Well then, I suppose every man who owes child support, every alcoholic who ever beat his kids, and every business executive who has simply ignore their illegitimate offspring should be pardoned and worshipped. After all, it's arrogant to be offended by such treatment.

You are weak enough to sell your soul for emotional security. But me...I have this little thing called 'integrity'. And independence is the first step to discovering it. There's no point to free will without some modicum of independence. And the more independence you have, the more power you have. The more power you have, the more you can be. And the more you can be, the greater a world you can make.

Independence is the first step towards creating a better future, god or no god. If I'm wrong, prove it to me.