Atheist Sunday Assembly goes worldwide, the future is bright for non-believers

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by Wertdagf

 

The default position is that you should not believe a claim untill there is evidence to support it. There is no burden of proof on the athiest.

Why is there no burdon to prove anything when you are a atheist and calim that there is no God?

If they make this claim they must have equal burdon on their behalf to proov their claim.

The reason we always discuss God or no God is because both sides lack solid facts that would without doubt prove one argument to be write.

Not Wert . . . however, it is the believer who is actually making the claim, albeit an epistemic one. So, according to the rules of logic . . . the onus probandi or philosophical burden of proof is on you.

The non-believer isn't actually making a claim . . . they are asserting their position from a lack of knowledge. There are no gods meddling in our everyday lives, nor have any been found in the natural world or the known universe. It is the same reason you probably don't believe in Zeus, Thor, Dragons, or Monsters that hide in closets.

The non-believer in such things is the critic. If you try to shift the onus to the critic, you are engaging in the logical fallacy of an appeal to ignorance. Ignorance meaning lack of evidence to the contrary . . . which is also called logical fallacy of informal logic. You, believer, is asserting that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or it is "generally accepted". Look up the philosophical dilemma of Bertrand Russel's Teapot, for explanation of this concept, if you need a visual. Basically, a claim for any god is scientifically unfalsifiable.
Russel's Teapot

Further more, evidence must meet certain requirements. Usually, those requirements rest in community standards, whether you want to employ the legal system or the scientific method. If we are simply producing evidence for sake of argument then your evidence must be substantive and contestable. Subtantive, the claim of a god is, as it is worthy of consideration . . .not substantive would be trival. However, it fails when it comes to contestable has there is no way to test it. But, let's say you could provide testable evidence . . . the next test is the evidence reliable and relevant.

Can we rely on the evidence . . . personal hearsay . . . no, as people lie, they can be delusional, they may be misinformed or mistaken, etc. . . . the bible . . . mythology and more hearsay, so no. And most importantly, in regard to reliablity, we can not test it or have any way to replicate the experiment. Is the evidence relevant . . . it can be, but again it can not be verified or replicated so it becomes unreliable.

The evidence for any god fails all logical tests and relies solely on creating an appeal to ignorance. Meaning your strongest argument or evidence rests in the fact that it has not yet been disproved . . . it's a false dichotomy. However the reality of everday life and what we know of the behaviors of the natural world don't support the idea, so the proponent or the believer holds the onus probandi.

Extraordinary claims also require extraordinary evidence.

So . . . do you have any?

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Whatever makes you feel good about yourself . . . your posts are self evident.

You are constantly shifting the goal posts . . . that's clear to all.

Agreeing that something is unconstitutional, yet saying I won't let it personally effect me as I have no control over legistation is carried out, is not saying that I agree with the practice. I said it doesn't upset me as it does you. Again, if you are so upset, you can file grievance with the court. I also don't get upset with the Commandments, as you keep claiming.

Again . . . for comprehension sake, since you are lacking . . . I agree it is unconstitutional. I've been very consistent with that claim. You are assuming I agree with the practice . . . I'm not sure why. Probably because you also don't know the difference between Progressives and Atheists, so you also assume I'm part of your imaginary agenda against Christianity. I believe you may suffer from confirmation bias, as well as your persecution complex.

You know what they say about assuming . . .

Have a good day . . . maybe take some of that Christian tolerance on the road and help the less fortunate to ease some of your ills.

reply to post by solomons path

Whatever makes you feel good about yourself . . . your posts are self evident.

Wasn't I on your ignore list? Just couldn't resist another swipe at me eh....

self evident? Lol that's pretty funny. Didn't I see something about truths being self evident in the Preamble...oh well never mind.

good day sir

I'm guessing that by now this thread has gone waaaaaay down the rabbit hole. However just thought i would thank you for bringing this to my attention. I will be looking into it with excitement.

People can say what they like about any idea no matter how absurd it sounds. It 'grinds my gears' that so many people see anything even remotely out of the ordinary as stupid, silly, idiotic, etc,etc. Take a trip out of your comfort zone once in a while, it wont hurt, i promise

I for one am a community goer and know of far to many people with no faith who have lost there way and have very few to nobody to talk to, ever! Something like this is a great place to meet people without having ideologies thrown at you. At the end of the day what is worst that could happen? You go and find other people with social anxiety? Well brilliant, be socially anxious together!

Anything to try and improve community relations is a plus in my book and if the bible bashers want to rant and rave, cool, go ahead. I'll be sitting right here smiling and nodding in rhythm. .

Cheers

reply to post by MongusePro

Haha, thanks for getting us back to the OP Monguse

I have to say this has been a very interesting read so far, although off topic, the issue of state/church separation is always a tricky one. Here in the UK the Church of England bishops actually have voting seats in our upper house of parliament. Even worse is that the Church of England only covers England, but get to vote on issues covering Wales, Scotland and N.Ireland.
That said, it's funny how Christians cry persecution in my country when they have seats in government as an established right for their church.

Now, regarding a meeting place for non-believers, on top of the many reasons which attract me, interesting talks, entertainment, charitable work, community spirit, and a haven free from religious zealots, who knows it may even get political as well?
Certainly, the outrageous situation of a religious organisation getting automatic seats in our upper house of parliament is going to be something fellow non-believers will disagree with. Perhaps if numbers grow there could be a wider national campaign born of the Sunday Assembly to abolish this.

As I said in the OP, 25% of English people declared 'no religion' in the 2011 census, with the figure in Wales being 32%. That is many millions of voters to effect change.
Again, to me, the future is looking bright for non-believers

reply to post by grainofsand


I like this!

It's interesting how threatened many of the Christian posters are by the prospect of atheists organizing, and holding Sunday meetings! I think it's been a long time coming and a very welcome social option to religious indoctrination.

You know, in many states here in the USA, atheists are barred from holding public office and in some they are barred from testifying in a court of law! Medieval!

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by grainofsand

 

I like this!

It's interesting how threatened many of the Christian posters are by the prospect of atheists organizing, and holding Sunday meetings! I think it's been a long time coming and a very welcome social option to religious indoctrination.

I've been surprised by the apparent fear of this by the religious types. Nowhere is the Assembly campaigning or on a mission to destroy religion, just simply offering a social option to non-believers. Perhaps the people of faith worry that the community spirit of their churches is the main thing that keeps people attending, so with a non-religious option available there may be a further decline in numbers?

You know, in many states here in the USA, atheists are barred from holding public office and in some they are barred from testifying in a court of law! Medieval!

Wow, that really is medieval!
I started a thread some time ago about having to choose either the religious oath or the non-religious affirmation when giving evidence as a witness in court. I was considering taking the religious one just in case the magistrates were hard core Christians and then they wouldn't judge me as a non believer. Thankfully the guy pleaded guilty and I did not have to attend, but there is an example of decisions we non-believers have to face in a society so tied up with religion.

reply to post by solomons path

There are no gods meddling in our everyday lives, nor have any been found in the natural world or the known universe. It is the same reason you probably don't believe in Zeus, Thor, Dragons, or Monsters that hide in closets.

The thing is. there is a organisation that claims to have Gods authority on earth. And that organisation have great authority conserning just about everyone in the world. Even you, because you fallow their callander and time as just about everyone else does. The papal see claims to have Gods authority on earth. They call them selves the Vicar of Christ.

This organisation dosent just deal in religion and faith, but also politics.

You can call religion a fantasy a joke and all that. But its dead serious, it have cost over hundred million people their lives.

Originally posted by jimmiec
So it is basically a YMCA? I think maybe the entire premise of Atheism is lost once they start holding weekly meetings in a church to celebrate not believing. I just can't grasp the point in it. Hey, but whatever floats your boat.

So you can't grasp SOCIALISING & LEARNING - sounds like a religious fundy to me - much like the Jehovahs at the C of E junior school I went to... Our local YMCA is a HOMELESS HOSTEL full of total HEATHEN drug addicts, alcoholics mixed with a few homeless Christians (and WOMEN are housed there too) - so no, not basically a YMCA as far as Worcester UK goes...

One can celebrate STAYING ALIVE - ha ha ha - can't WE!?? Some of us MISS SINGING TOGETHER.

Women 'FLOAT MY BOAT' mate - and as an ANTI-THEIST my 1st proper lover was a slightly wild but mostly not C of E preacher's daughter...

If it wasn't for your signature I'd also attackingly say 'It's IDIOTS like you that make atheism so much more attractive' but I LIKE DANCING TOO - and regularly boogied to banging beats in a CONVERTED CHURCH in Cheltenham - TIME Nightclub - Now THAT'S WHAT I CALL A GOOD CONVERSION!

reply to post by spy66

Yeah, you've said this loads of times but who cares, and what difference does it make to anyones life?
And what about Thailand, Laos, Cambodia and Burma then? They use the Buddhist Era to officially count time which is 543 years ahead of the Gregorian calender, so they had the 2012 date half a millenia ago.
Are they the only countries free from this ridiculous notion you have of Catholic domination through our method of counting years?

You've made your point a few times but if you can't relate it in any way to the OP I would suggest start your own thread and see where it goes. Perhaps we will all be enlightened and you can help free us from the slavery of the Gregorian calender.

I am still awaiting, with great anticipation, the Atheists creation story/theory and accurate calculations and equations explaining how it all began. Truthfully, if you ask an Atheist what was before the "big bang" and he or she answers "I don't know', does that not automatically make him or her an Agnostic?

Or, I do know the answer to that. However, I am looking forward to your creation theory.

It seems much more healthy to be an agnostic in the end.

reply to post by grainofsand


Cheers for highlighting this (esp. to the US CROSS PEOPLE)... I saw this mentioned on, I believe ('scuse pun), BBC's 'The Big Question' recently... A fine idea - especially where NON-THEISTS are PERSECUTED - ie. The US and most Islamic nations.

The SERVICE (and it is a service) could actually start at 10:00am Sunday SHOUTING AT A TV showing 'The Big Question' as they often debate religion v atheism as well as more secular social & political points...

I'd be up for a bit of happy clappy, take-the-piss singing (and dancing - maybe not Sunday Morning) to some well known, non-religious tunes...

How many atheists say they'd ban religion? - not many... How many religions ban those who are not of their religion? - TOO MANY...

PRAISE BE TO LIFE, CROSS-DEATHERS and sWORD-LIVERS - SUBMIT TO ATHEISM! (I jest, atheism, like theism SHOULD NEVER BE FORCED)

reply to post by ABeing

No-one knows, it's just the religious types came up with a story which hasn't a shred of evidence to back it up.
I prefer to say 'don't know' than believe an invisible unprovable entity did it all.

Another reason why socialising with fellow non-believers free from religious dogma is an attractive option found in the Sunday Assembly.

reply to post by PrivateSi

Haha, cheers mate...got to admit I prefer an afternoon start for a Sunday as well

reply to post by grainofsand


Well answered and in a mature way too. That I can respect and appreciate. For the reality is that no one knows, but all believe and therefore proposing that one does know the truth of reality is blasphemous.

However, because of this, I suggest you quit referring to believers as "religious types" as Atheism is indeed, a belief system too, as are other religions.

Star!

Originally posted by grainofsand
reply to post by spy66

 

Yeah, you've said this loads of times but who cares, and what difference does it make to anyones life?
And what about Thailand, Laos, Cambodia and Burma then? They use the Buddhist Era to officially count time which is 543 years ahead of the Gregorian calender, so they had the 2012 date half a millenia ago.
Are they the only countries free from this ridiculous notion you have of Catholic domination through our method of counting years?

You've made your point a few times but if you can't relate it in any way to the OP I would suggest start your own thread and see where it goes. Perhaps we will all be enlightened and you can help free us from the slavery of the Gregorian calender.

If they want to trade they must use the Gregorian time frame. If you look up the authority of the catholic church you will see that Budda must answer to the papal see.

I am not saying that the papal see have any attributs of God. What we lack seeing is that they tell us that they have the devine right of Gods authority on earth. Big difference.

You think you dont fallow any religion at all. Maybe not in your mind, but appart from that you do fallow the laws of the catholic church without being aware of it. If you just start being a bit more aware of your daily life you will see how traped you are in a religious controlled world.

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by solomons path

 

There are no gods meddling in our everyday lives, nor have any been found in the natural world or the known universe. It is the same reason you probably don't believe in Zeus, Thor, Dragons, or Monsters that hide in closets.

The thing is. there is a organisation that claims to have Gods authority on earth. And that organisation have great authority consening just about everyone in the world. Even you, because you fallow their callander and time as just about everyone else does. The papal see claims to have Gods authority on earth. They call them selves the Vicar of Christ.

This organisation dosent just deal in religion and faith, but also politics.

You can call religion a fantasy a joke and all that. But its dead serious, it have cost over hundred million people their lives.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

Again . . . claims with no evidence.

And I could say the same about Stalinist Russia or Communist China, yet their power and claims don't equal truth. In all three cases, their power and scope was imposed by force and coercion. In all three cases, they eliminated anyone that dared challenge their claims. In fact, in all cases the actual evidence is lacking and their power rests solely in their claims. I guess you equate evidence to how well an organization asserts their political will. I do find the amount of humans that died due to claims without evidence a tragedy though, in all three cases, whether they died for or opposed to this lack of evidence.

And again . . you are dealing in logical fallacy. An appeal to ignorance based on general acceptance.

You posed why is it the believer must provide the evidence . . . I outlined that pretty clearly. . . . The best you can come up with is because we say so and lots of people do it?

I'll remember the strength of that evidence the next time the lemmings run by on the way to the cliff . . . I guess I'll join them, finally.

Good luck with that new Pope . . . Maybe this organization can impose their will over the known world again and "put to silence the ignorance of foolish people".

Originally posted by spy66

If you just start being a bit more aware of your daily life you will see how traped you are in a religious controlled world.

I agree that religion has influence over my life and wish it was not the case.
Another reason why I hope the Sunday Assembly grows in strength. Perhaps with enough numbers supporting change then situations like bishops in the upper house of the UK parliament will come to an end.

reply to post by ABeing


You're welcome to consider yourself AGNOSTIC, NON-BELIEVER! 'I don't know' only = GOD if you BELIEVE GOD EXISTS... Most things in life are not black & white but BELIEF in GOD or NOT is a BINARY ISSUE... Even if you use FUZZY LOGIC and say I believe 10% god exist and 90% god doesn't you are STILL A THEIST in my GOOD BOOK but welcome to go to EITHER SERVICE (I should imagine - certainly in the UK but not sure about Agnostics/Atheists being allowed into Mosques, regularly, without converting).

In the CHURCH OF pSi GOD is an evil, dictatorial concept and HEAVEN is a MIND-STORAGE mechanism before one gets a new body to be reincarnated into - on a PLANET OF YOUR CHOICE - unless you were a MUDERER or RAPIST - in which case you can take your chances with 'God' but will NEVER EXIST IN REALITY AGAIN... Major crimes (major assaults & thefts etc.) result in reincarnation at a later date on a HELLISH PRISON-PLANET (not Earth) for a set period of time, after which you will be reincarnated on a non-custodial planet... 'The God Machine' - NO - the AFTERLIFE MACHINE (good names for bands)...

MY RELIGION DOES NOT EXIST!

reply to post by PrivateSi

Your version of an evil dictatorial god is very similar to the one written about in the old testament of the Christian Bible