Why Socialism Is The Inevitable Social Structure, Anthropological Perspective

Originally posted by sligtlyskeptical

Originally posted by Trueman
Living in a capitalist country, I see more unemployment, houses for sale and homeless around everyday. If socialism can promise to provide what people need to have a decent living, it will be the "inevitable" choice.

I can deal with that, but I don't want to see corrupted socialist leaders like the one just died few days ago.

This terrible leader you speak of was loved by the vast majority of his country. The opposition was completely from the minority elite, which hated that the ability to exploit was taken away.

No, not really, the person doing the exploiting changed. Venezuela (of which I assume you speak) was actually classed as capitalist socialism. Chavez got rich, his cadre got rich, the middle class had their businesses stolen from them and the poor got some benefit - not knocking that, but please don't turn the guy into an angel.

Robert Welch predicted all of this in 1958 and unfortunately our enemies will succeed in their depopulation scheme because many will die from both sides and in the end, Socialism will not win because Socialism does not work:


However and I do not remember who said it but "The answer is not dying for what you believe in but making the other guy die for what he believes in"...you Marxists can guess who I am talking about.

reply to post by doctornamtab


Neither capitalism nor socialism can deliver greater good in an immoral society.

Wealth has always been concentrated in a few hands - the powerful or the enterprising. This has been the norm since eternity.

I totally disagree with OP.

Capitalism isn't an invented system like socialism. It is the study of what people do when left to their own devices. Every unregulated (black) market operates naturally as capitalism.

Socialism has to be enforced, and you can't guard against corruption. People are corrupt, period. Socialism is a utopian ideal. It has never worked (so far) in reality.

Originally posted by doctornamtab
Here's what I don't understand about capitalists. It's a profound misunderstanding of history. History stretching back thousands of years. Capitalism is about 300 years old. Humankind is about 200,000 years old.

Let me stop you right there. Capitalism is not 300 years old. Its as old a mankind itself. Heres an example. Caveman A has a rock, and wants a stick. Caveman B has a stick, and wants a rock. Caveman A and B trade, and they both benefit because they both received that which they wanted more than what they originally had. If two people make a trade, then both parties to that trade must always benefit, or else the trade would never happen (people wont purposefully screw themselves over). That gained benefit, also known as profit, or Capital... is the basis of Capitalism. Bartering is the earliest known form of Capitalism, as it is the purest form of a Free Market.

Because this glaring flaw in your OP, its clear you have no understanding what Capitalism is, and therefore the entire OP is flawed and thus irrelevant.

Reading first post I understand one thing. He is right.

Over 200.000 years it worked this way.



=



And suddenly come Capitalism.



Who wants to go back to good old socialism? I don't see raised hands.

Another pro-socialism thread?

Wow, when are you people going to get it through your heads that socialism doesnt work. It never has and it never will. It is too easily abused by those in power and those who dont want to earn their keep (work).

Also, why do you think we need to take a step back in the way we govern each other? Socialism is an old concept why cant we come up with a new system, maybe a hybrid of socialism, capitalism and freedom?

Most of you pro-socialist people believe in evolution, right? So why cant we evolve as a society and create a new system of govt instead of trying to resurrect an old flawed one.

reply to post by doctornamtab


You don't understand? Here's how it works in easy to understand steps.

Capitalists and industrialists give jobs to workers who are socialists.

Automation is taking over many of those job descriptions that socialist workers once performed.

There are seven billion people on the planet looking for work. There's not seven billion jobs on the planet. Socialists are becoming very disgruntled.

Capitalists and industrialists remain very gruntled because automatons don't give them a lot of union bullcrap headaches and stuff.

Socialists become more disgruntled the more they see capitalists and industrialists being gruntled. Socialists threated to revolt. The industrialists and capitalists hire mercenary law enforcement, highly paid and very skilled security personnel to keep the revolution in check.

Eventually disease and famine will spread through the ranks of the socialists who are crammed together coughing on each other.

I like this discussion.
I would like to see more collaboration then competition - one thing that abs kills me
is that we live on the "champion theory" and then we complain of misery - like we
signed a contract and then when the liability clauses of it comes we call it unfair.

Its only fair if we win....

In a society programmed like that, obviously the elite will keep their status quo, making
harder and harder for regular folks with no money in family to keep up.

Sad sad. Subscribing the thread.

Caveman socialism I take you round rock and use it for myself as I am most glorious leader.
Caveman capitalism, how about some really cool feces for your round rock, I call it perfume! What no you don't want it? I beat you on head and take rock!
Socialism is for ants where there only exist's one supreme intelligence. We have a highly distributed intelligence in the human race, we can think for ourselves when we want to, despite the dumbing down of our populace. The question is do we want too? Anybody read the 5000 year leap!

Any society will always fail, there is no economic model that work's we have to get equilibrium through our heads to survive. I want more money, company pays me more money, prices go up, I need more money to survive. Kind of sounds like a runaway system. I think the hippie commune's of the sixties were that generations utopia. Now they all grown up and want to destroy our way of life, as we voted them in power. Mans laws are made to be broken, but religions laws, break them and you'll end up in fire and brimstone! Could just be the ultimate system of control. Oh we'll back to work time to write some rules for my computer to follow ( software ). Maybe we need one of the 500 year biblical reboot of society, too complex now ?

Economic systems do not fail.

People fail.

But for as long as there is a need for slave labor....which has always been the case and always will be the case.....there is a use for socialism.

One of the big problems is that the EPA will come along to tell you to shut down the mine because the skies are looking a little less clear.

Please be good enough to point out the 200,000 year old successful socialist civilization that proves your point. Humans have been separate and fought over resources for all of our existence and yet we have survived. Capitalism has driven the greatest forward push of human evolution in just the last 150 years. Seems to laugh in the face of your supposition.

Originally posted by Trueman
Living in a capitalist country, I see more unemployment, houses for sale and homeless around everyday. If socialism can promise to provide what people need to have a decent living, it will be the "inevitable" choice.

I can deal with that, but I don't want to see corrupted socialist leaders like the one just died few days ago.

If you are talking about the US, this is a faulty conclusion that the problems we are seeing has come from Capitalist solutions to housing. You have missed the part where Big Govt Statists who seek to profit through govt intervention in the private market destroyed it when they overlooked the corruption and fraud in Fannie/Freddie. It was Clinton and the Democrats who forced lenders to make loans to poor people who later defaulted. Socialism does not stop corruption, fraud, and greed, as you and others here seem to think.It only forces it into the public sector.
Also, the Federal Reserve Act was not part of the original Constitution, and was instituted much later. The govt should never have abdicated it's responsibility to the public by deliberately allowing itself to become complicit in the schemes of the International Bankers. This was not how the Founding Fathers envisioned it, and indeed some of them warned about using a central banking system, regardless of whether it was a public govt system or private bankers. What we see now is the worst of both Capitalism and Socialism/Statism. The big banking cartels do not represent free enterprise, they represent mafioso behavior. This happens in govt too, in case you didn't notice.

When the private big banking cartels get together with the sharks in govt, just what exactly would you expect to happen?

Originally posted by RobertPaulsim
I like this discussion.
I would like to see more collaboration then competition - one thing that abs kills me
is that we live on the "champion theory" and then we complain of misery - like we
signed a contract and then when the liability clauses of it comes we call it unfair.

Its only fair if we win....

In a society programmed like that, obviously the elite will keep their status quo, making
harder and harder for regular folks with no money in family to keep up.

Sad sad. Subscribing the thread.

edit on 12-3-2013 by RobertPaulsim because: (no reason given)

On the contrary, any time you take the competition out of the game, you lose the incentive to do things better. Socialism runs on lack of competition. No matter how hard you work, you will never get ahead and your profit goes to your neighbor who didn't work. How does that make anyone feel like doing anything at all? Haven't you ever been to the DMV and looked at the sour faces working there, who obviously do not really want to help people at all but just have this crummy govt job, and they always act like it's such a darn big deal to do something for the customer...

That's the socialist, big govt centralized way. The Soviet Union fell and the 60's hippies radicals want to bring that worldwide anyway.

Originally posted by Dustofenese

Originally posted by doctornamtab
Here's what I don't understand about capitalists. It's a profound misunderstanding of history. History stretching back thousands of years. Capitalism is about 300 years old. Humankind is about 200,000 years old.

Let me stop you right there. Capitalism is not 300 years old. Its as old a mankind itself. Heres an example. Caveman A has a rock, and wants a stick. Caveman B has a stick, and wants a rock. Caveman A and B trade, and they both benefit because they both received that which they wanted more than what they originally had. If two people make a trade, then both parties to that trade must always benefit, or else the trade would never happen (people wont purposefully screw themselves over). That gained benefit, also known as profit, or Capital... is the basis of Capitalism. Bartering is the earliest known form of Capitalism, as it is the purest form of a Free Market.

Because this glaring flaw in your OP, its clear you have no understanding what Capitalism is, and therefore the entire OP is flawed and thus irrelevant.

edit on 3/11/2013 by Dustofenese because: (no reason given)

edit on 3/11/2013 by Dustofenese because: fixed quote, and fixed grammar

edit on 3/11/2013 by Dustofenese because: (no reason given)

edit on 3/12/2013 by Dustofenese because: removed a comma, (my sentence structure sucks today XD)

Nice post. I would say that old fashioned barter systems also fit more into this model you are talking about than socialism, as socialism would mean that Barter A customer would be forced by govt to give Barter B recipient something for free.
Small farmers and tradesmen had more power in the past in the sense that there weren't necessarily large olligopoly corporations to wipe out the competition. This is where Monopoly Capitalism departs from true free enterprise.
But govt and socialists seek to control though Statist artificial means such as price controls and legislation.

Originally posted by sligtlyskeptical

Originally posted by METACOMET
Ask yourself why your ideology cannot exist unless everyone is subjected into it as well.

What exactly is stopping you from creating your own Brook Farm?

If you actually understand socialism on a community level, and still want to live under that system, nobody is stopping you.

That is so disingenuous, yet most people would agree with you. I want to start my own brook farm but unfortunately I can't find any landowners to let me take over their land. Maybe you can point me in the right direction besides telling me to compete until I do own it.

Enter Agenda 21 which says govt can just take someone else's land through eminent domain, or create a conservation easement. But for the most part, it's really for removing all people from their lands and cramming them into sardine can housing in the big cities.

Besides, the second any form of curreny is created in an economy the economy will eventualy collapse.

A barter system is the only true and sustainable system. Anyone who plays video game MMOs and trades in those systems understands this concept.

The second one allows farming of an indefinite resource IE gold (IE the fed printing all the "gold" they want) the system will fail.

I don't want to live in a socialist soceity, I like the fact that if I choose to get up and work harder than someone else I can aquire more things for me and my family and friends. I also like the fact that if I choose to not work I can do whatever my means allow. I don't think someone needs to hand me 30% of their paycheck becasue their parents paid 200K for them to get an engineering degree and mine did not. That is whats "not fair."

reply to post by doctornamtab


To my knowledge there are no capitalist countries. At least in the "free market" sense you described. Everything is regulated and taxed by governments. Then they further do the "social engineering" to "spread the wealth" and they try to regulate products they disagree with out of competition such as cigarettes etc. Actually most countries are a lot more socialist than you may realize. And the safety nets that provides in any given society can be a good thing. But human nature being what it is, this inevitably leads to more efforts to control those receiving said benefits. Look at the welfare drug testing in Florida for example. Look at the requirements to collect unemployment in most states etc. I think you have misinterpreted socialism. It seems to me you define it as a bunch of humans coming together to share resources and abilities to increase their survival and success in the world. That would be nice. If it was true, but it is not so. Socialism is a Chavez style Venezuela. Where with the stroke of a pen he can confiscate your business and lively hood for the good of the state of course. Socialism is Obama's America where you have to buy insurance or be fined, for the good of the state. A free market however means you can bring any product to market and sell it or compete on the merits of your product. If the people want it they will buy it. And you would be successful and make money. But there is no such place, not yet anyway...

Socialism is the only way.. Look at the problems that our society face, we have mass unemployment, debt coming out of everyones ears and corrupt profit makers that choose their profits over the benefit of the human race. That is not a system that is improving us as a race of human beings! It is only benefitting a few..

Capitalism either needs a serious revamp or it needs to be scrapped all together.. There is too much room for corruption and waste. I'm sick of buying things that are designed to break so I need another one, I'm sick of politians selling laws to rich company owners and I'm sick of private banks getting into # and stealing our money to make it better... How can anyone support that system??