Obama Demands Timetable For Israeli Withdrawl From The West Bank.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
POST REMOVED BY STAFF

What the actual[snip]are you babbling on about now? Jesus christ is it so hard for you to read what I have said and argue your points based on words I have actually typed, not just what you think I said or what you think you can twist to make it look like I said?

I know israelis have a problem with truth, like the faked radio messages your Mossad created when you slaughtered the turksh activists on the boats, and the picture of the philipine woman you had to make whiter and more jewish with photoshop but this is not the Israeli population, this is a community for denying ignorance.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


British mandate means stuff all when you take into account the land that has been stolen since and the proposals which have also been broken. No wonder the Palestinians are launching rockets into Israel and thats not even mentioning the massacres that occured in 1948. Who are the bloodthirsty ones again? Cant even ship aid into Gaza without being shot in the head and brutally murdered.

FACT: Israeli settlers steal land from Palestinians by force.

FACT: Israeli settlers uproot olive trees and destroy / poison water that is used by Palestinians.

FACT: Armed Israeli settlers forcefully eject Palestinians from their homes and take them over, while the IDF sit and protect them.

FACT: Israel has the most UN condemnations ever.

FACT: Israel is an apartheid state.

FACT: Israel has killed American citizens, and American soldiers.

FACT: Israel has engaged in decades of terrorist activities, and assassinations.


So keep spewing about Hamas, and religion, and god promising whoever land. God isn't a real estate agent so that argument holds absolutely ZERO merit.

I believe Obama is full of crap on this one, he is just saving face. But the actual point is valid. Israel should withdraw 100% from the West Bank and if they don't they should be removed by force.

reply to post by buster2010

Your assertion the land doesn't belong to them is a strong and faulty one to begin with. If not them, whom exactly? The "Palestinians"? As much as the name is beloved and used often, it's not one with much historical basis or claim to occupation of the ancient lands.

To be quite honest, that land is some of the most fought over and occupied on this planet, historically speaking. So the question of just who WOULD have claim to it, in a historic sense, is a very good one and FAR from being as clear as some would so much like that to be.

At the moment, Israel does have the civilization sitting on the land, they are comprised of both Jews AND Arab citizens (Over 7 million civilian residents in Israel itself) and they aren't going anywhere. With or Without the U.S. and whatever this fool Obama thinks he can "force", Israel has the land and isn't giving it up without seeing a good % of those 7 million people die in a war to take it from them. Personally, I DO NOT root for the deaths of millions of Jews and Arabs alike. That is the ONLY way present day Israel will lose the land they (and the world) recognizes as a nation.


There is something else which MUST be noted here. Israel shows a great deal of restraint...and I know the "I hate Israel crowd" laughs at that idea...but then, I find them amusing too, so it balances out. The restraint comes by the fact Israel has the force and power to literally REMOVE HUMAN LIFE from the West Bank and/or Gaza Strip, to a person, any time they choose. The Palestinians have NO such option, but they still gleefully murder Israeli civilians with reckless abandon. If Israel returned that sentiment in kind, we wouldn't have Palestinians in the world anymore. Period. Israel could end the problem in a short weekend and before ANYONE could move to stop them

The fact they don't, shows restraint. The fact the Palestinians can't stop killing their civilians anyway....shows the restraint may not last forever. Damn sure though, as long as the Palestinian Terrorists are making a point of murdering Israeli citizens? They won't be giving an inch of land back to anyone ...and I don't blame them a bit.

They gave Gaza back...and it made it WORSE. Much MUCH worse. Not better. Not even a little bit. Why repeat the mistake with the West Bank?

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reply to post by DerekJR321

FACT: Some folks here hate Israel so much it vibrates.

The only thing stronger than the blind hatred for all things Israeli and Jewish is the lack of comprehensive historical understanding for how it all came to be this way. There are some members who have spent LONG periods, building very lengthy and very in depth, historic based narratives of what happened in the time prior to World War II as well as the formation of Israel after it.

It's worth reading about ... and hate is a really rough emotion. Highly self destructive and rarely positive in any other way.

reply to post by DerekJR321


FACTS??!!! You call those facts???!!!!

Half truths are NOT facts.

For example, you claimed Israeli apathied. This is so LUDICRIOUS, I cannot even begin to address the reality of the situation. If brainwashed palestinians continues to demand Israeli blood, and proven with suicide bombers and missles regularly, dot you think the Israelis will let them share the same bus ride home, same schools, work place and recreational facilities?

And it will only get worse, as new generations of BOTH palestinians and Israelis are taught at schools at young age to hate each other.

It has to end.

Try compelling Hamas to disvow death to Israelis, sign a lasting peace treaty and see what happens. Change will come, not overnight, but in time. However, as long as one side is sick of living in fear, and the other side hell bent on living with hatred, the palestinian issue and human suffering WILL NEVER end

And it begins with you and me, to be OBJECTIVE on truths, and not SUBJECTIVE, like some deluded posters here who claim this is ATS which denies ignorances and YET, they continue to spout Hamas kissing BS and falsehoods.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by DerekJR321

 

FACT: Some folks here hate Israel so much it vibrates.

The only thing stronger than the blind hatred for all things Israeli and Jewish is the lack of comprehensive historical understanding for how it all came to be this way. There are some members who have spent LONG periods, building very lengthy and very in depth, historic based narratives of what happened in the time prior to World War II as well as the formation of Israel after it.

It's worth reading about ... and hate is a really rough emotion. Highly self destructive and rarely positive in any other way.

edit on 7-3-2013 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

Here's how it came to be this way: Some jews rocked up in the 40's, they massacred the local people, and then started bombing the British in order to force their own state. They got this, and then as soon as they had control over the territories given to them with strict instructions to respect the boundaries, they set the precedent for the next 60 years. They almost immediately began stealing land, and have never had any of their current borders rubberstamped by the UN. They began striking their neighbours, all the while they began cultivating a victim mentality to spoonfeed to gullible Americans. Then the Arabs got annoyed at Israeli violence, so they all ganged up on you and opened a can of whoopass on Israel, they lost, but this started another new tradition, any Arab in Israel was to be persecuted, and any attempt to fight back from this persecution was called "terrorism". You then bolted this idea of "terrorism" onto the programmes you were operating in the US, and began convincing the Americans that now you were both victims and fighting against terrorism, which you also cultivated by building walls, demolishing houses, evicting people and building illegal settlements and turning Gaza into an open air prison.

Through a highly controlled Zionist media, they have managed to brainwash people into believing that Anti Zionism is the same as Anti Semetism, and this has become the backbone of all their arguments. They tried to do the same to Europeans, but they are not so easily fooled, and they outright refused to buy the story. This is why in recent years Israel has used forged EU passports to murder people in third party nations.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
reply to post by DerekJR321

 

FACTS??!!! You call those facts???!!!!

Half truths are NOT facts.

Yes.. congratulations. Your eyes work correctly. I said FACTS.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
For example, you claimed Israeli apathied. This is so LUDICRIOUS, I cannot even begin to address the reality of the situation.

Really? Prove me wrong. Palestinian buses anyone? But.. seeing as it is so "ludicrious".. whatever the hell that means.. please.. enlighten me as to how Israel is NOT an apartheid nation. Go ahead.. I'll wait. Maybe you want to get some megaphonies in here to help you.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
If brainwashed palestinians continues to demand Israeli blood, and proven with suicide bombers and missles regularly, dot you think the Israelis will let them share the same bus ride home, same schools, work place and recreational facilities?

Yes... there it is.. Those crazy smelly brown people who are savages and want nothing but Israeli blood. I'm sorry.. I don't see Palestinians stealing Israeli homes. I don't see Palestinians poisoning Israeli water. Oh now I'm sure your going to bring up those rocket attacks. But I assure you, you don't want to get into that argument with me. You won't win.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
And it will only get worse, as new generations of BOTH palestinians and Israelis are taught at schools at young age to hate each other.

It has to end.

And it will.. when Israeli children are no longer taught that the world is against them. When they are taught that Palestinians are human being and not savage animals who have no right to life. And yes.. this is taught. If you insist.. I can provide quotes and examples for you.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
Try compelling Hamas to disvow death to Israelis, sign a lasting peace treaty and see what happens. Change will come, not overnight, but in time. However, as long as one side is sick of living in fear, and the other side hell bent on living with hatred, the palestinian issue and human suffering WILL NEVER end

Like it or not, Hamas was elected by the Palestinians. You can stomp your feet and cry all you want. You will never convince me that Hamas is any worse than the IDF or Mossad.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
And it begins with you and me, to be OBJECTIVE on truths, and not SUBJECTIVE, like some deluded posters here who claim this is ATS which denies ignorances and YET, they continue to spout Hamas kissing BS and falsehoods.

There will never be change in the region, so long as Israel plays the victim. Israel is the superior power when it comes to Israel vs Palestine. Israel could very easily leave the West Bank and let the Palestinians live in peace. But they won't. Because they believe that some magical "god" gave the land to them. Them.. European Jews. Somehow THESE people are "gods chosen people". Until both sides cut the religious bull#.. there will never be peace.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by DerekJR321

 

FACT: Some folks here hate Israel so much it vibrates.

Your absolutely right. I have no fear or shame in admitting I absolutely HATE Israel. Your point?

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
The only thing stronger than the blind hatred for all things Israeli and Jewish is the lack of comprehensive historical understanding for how it all came to be this way.

And there it is. The cop out. Did you all catch it? Who the hell said anything about "Jewish"?? You did. No one else.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
There are some members who have spent LONG periods, building very lengthy and very in depth, historic based narratives of what happened in the time prior to World War II as well as the formation of Israel after it.

It's worth reading about ... and hate is a really rough emotion. Highly self destructive and rarely positive in any other way.

History is nothing more than "HIS" story...

reply to post by MildCat


Actually, the first recognised settlements were established in 1878 and were funded by the Rothschilds..

In the late 1870s, Jewish philanthropists such as the Montefiores and the Rothschilds responded to the persecution of Jews in Eastern Europe by sponsoring agricultural settlements for Russian Jews in Palestine. The Jews who migrated in this period are known as the First Aliyah. Aliyah is a Hebrew word meaning "ascent", referring to the act of spiritually "ascending" to the Holy Land and a basic tenet of Zionism.

From then on though the plans were to buy out as much land as they could and change the status quo. 88% of the population were Arabs back in the day while a mere 3% were Jewish until the immigrants began flocking in over the next 70 years. Of course they got what they wanted.

reply to post by MildCat

Well, first, the personal 'you' references are misplaced. I'm neither Jew nor Israeli. I'm an American and I'm Wiccan if that actually matters for anything. I have nothing in common with the State of Israel except that I have no desire to see their civilians murdered, needlessly. I'd say the same for the Palestinians, by the way, and have many times. It does take TWO to fight ...and no one can say the Palestinians bring it all on any more than it can be said the Israeli's do. They both do their fair share of pushing these days. Although, to say they are equal in any other way is absurd. Again, Israel can obliterate the Palestinians to the last child. The Arabs cannot to the same. That shows restraint to one side.


Now as for this "rock up" in the 40's, that is sure ONE way of describing historical events. It's a very over-simplified and fundamentally flawed way of describing it for it leaves out SO MUCH of material importance.

For example. the United Nations was set to make BOTH Israel and Palestine. There was never going to be "just" a Palestine. There was never meant to be JUST Israel. It was intended, by WORLD effort, to be both Israel and Palestine.

Israel didn't like some of the details (or the Jews pre-Israel, to be specific) and so they jumped the gun by a bit and unilaterally declared Israel ahead of the United Nations legal establishment of their nation. Ooops...

War followed. Instantly. A war which the Arabs started and the Arabs lost. The next few wars would be the same. Arab nations started them or were about to (in one case) and then lost the wars. Always multiple nations vs. Israel. Always a TOTAL loss to the Arab side. Some with U.S. Support and sometimes without.

So, Israel has more than earned their place on the land. They've earned it in blood. However, and this is the IMPORTANT PART, Israel is a Nation recognized by the world and has been, if not before, a legal and world wide recognized nation since the Camp David Accords of 1979.

When someone can figure a way to erase all the factual treaties, declarations and legal moves of the past, we can say Israel isn't legal or a nation. Until then, they are legal and are a nation. So says the world and so it must be until changed by law or war. War has NEVER gone well....I hope they have the intelligence to avoid attempting it again. Israel isn't likely to lose this time, either.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
reply to post by MildCat

 

Actually, the first recognised settlements were established in 1878 and were funded by the Rothschilds..

In the late 1870s, Jewish philanthropists such as the Montefiores and the Rothschilds responded to the persecution of Jews in Eastern Europe by sponsoring agricultural settlements for Russian Jews in Palestine. The Jews who migrated in this period are known as the First Aliyah. Aliyah is a Hebrew word meaning "ascent", referring to the act of spiritually "ascending" to the Holy Land and a basic tenet of Zionism.

From then on though the plans were to buy out as much land as they could and change the status quo. 88% of the population were Arabs back in the day while a mere 3% were Jewish until the immigrants began flocking in over the next 70 years. Of course they got what they wanted.

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't sure if it would have been relevent in the context of the modern zionist state but all an any background information is vital for proving who is really to blame.

Your posts have all been excellent. I enjoy reading them, please keep up the good work

reply to post by DerekJR321

I appreciate your honest reply. I work hard to deny ignorance, not feed hate. So, while I thank you for admitting you come from a position of pure hatred for all things Israeli...it does mark the end of our chatting on this topic, anyway. Debate isn't possible when one side comes from a dark pit of hate toward the subject. Too close to the topic doesn't even touch on that.

Indeed..... The hate for Israel is overwhelming among some though. It's a bad thing to see... Again, hate is ultimately a self destructive emotion and little more. It destroys the one nurturing it and rarely, if ever, impacts the one it's directed at in something like this.

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reply to post by MildCat

No it isn't, it is a response to that which is utterly offensive to your concience. I find the treatment of Palestinians by the state of Israel, and your pretending to care about the palestinians utterly repulsive, and thus I hate both the state and you.

That's a shame... Now you had to go and make it personal. I was enjoying the give and take of the debate too..... The list of people I flat out ignore is a short one but it's one people worked hard to get on. Welcome to it...and watch that hatred, as I mention to another. It's self destructive and sometimes, to an extreme. It's never pretty.

Hating ME though? Okay.... I don't even care to ask anymore, as that's about all I needed to see or know of your motivations. Enjoy your thread.. We'll never chat again.

*By the way.... watch that friendly fire..of just hating on EVERYONE... Twosides is probably one of your best allies, as I understand the post history...and yet even he gets attacked blindly? Ouch