Thousands Die of Hunger and Thirst in Hospitals

reply to post by mistressofspice


don't start me on the paperwork
one of my other gripes is we have to do a lot of training now CQC has said so which I do not mind but at my home I have to pay for this training myself and already in the past 6 months I have had to pay for around 500 quids worth with at least another 400 quid in the coming months, I do not get any extra on my minimum wage when I do the training and they expect to keep the good workers?

Back to the OP I still think it isn't as black and white as being reported but hopefully standards will get better.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Okay .. what gives? Are hospital workers stretched too thin? Is it a matter of 'you get what you pay for'? Is it just human error by people who are in the health care business but who really don't care and shouldn't be there? Is it that people are doing the best they can but their best isn't good enough? I'm finding info on this for Britain and Australia. (I'm sure that there must be other places where this happens as well)

Patients Starving To Death in British Hospitals

At least 1,165 people starved to death while they were patients in Britain's National Health Service hospitals over the past four years.

Critics charge that nurses are too busy to properly feed their patients and often place food and drink out of reach, reports the Daily Mail.

Figures from the Office for National Statistics also reveal that for every patient who died from malnutrition, four more died from dehydration, according to the newspaper

Also from that source - In 2011 another 5,558 people were discharged from the hospital suffering from malnutrition.

edit on 3/3/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

Hi, While I would never expect you of all people to try and show other countries health systems in a bad light, there are some things that need to be stated.

The actual text says 'thousands' are NOT dying of hunger and thirst. 1,165 divided by four years is 291 per year. That it still of course still a tragedy but even then, your information does not include how many were suffering from malnutrition prior to entering hospital. Facts I know are a pain, but why not try balancing an article before posting it?

In the UK we know that at least one NHS Trust has been severely mismanaged - there is no question of that and it actually now risks closure. That is all out in the open, it's not something that MSM has under reported (strange how everyone accuses the MSM of not telling the facts when patently they do).

To state that nurses purposefully leave food and drink out of reach is an allegation - not a fact. There are cases as in the Trust I mentioned above where it's true (and shocking) that patients didn't have direct access to water - I'll say it again, that is shocking and from what I understand prosecutions will take place.

Flyersfan, I know you want to demonise the NHS because it can show that even here in nasty socialist Europe (in your eyes) there are better ways of doing some things than how it's done in America - get over yourself!

My other half recently had a stay in hospital after an operation. No complaints about availability or quality of food or water. Both my parents in the last 5 years or so have had operations and ongoing treatment in hospital - no complaints from them either. There are times that level of care is obviously not what it should be and they should rightly be reported and action taken, but to imply it is widespread is to sensationalise.

Out of interest, seeing as you have brought this up, could you provide the equivalent mortality rates for North America?

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by watchitburn
I wonder how many of those deaths were due to feeding tubes and such being removed from people who are brain dead and stuff like that.

Considering that over 5,000 people who were discharged from the hospital were suffering from malnutrition and dehydration as well .. I'd say that the numbers probably cover very few people who were 'brain dead' ... it looks like it was pretty much everyone in the hospital who suffered ...

The trouble with quoting that Flyersfan is you don't know how many of those were not suffering from malnutrition beforehand, and I'm not even sure where that 'fact' is coming from. Do you know what malnutrition is? You apparently think it means starving - it doesn't. It's a medical condition caused by improper or insufficient diet. So, let's think about that for a second. If you live almost totally on a fast food/junk food diet as unfortunately many people do today, then medically you may very well be malnourished - did you know that?

When other half was in hospital I checked out the menu she had for ordering her meal and trust me you would struggle to find anything not nutrituous on it, but if prior to entering hospital her staple diet was burger and fries she would have entered malnourished and left malnourished as she wouldn't have been in hospital long enough to see a positive change.

Nobody is denying the horror stories, but for every horror story there will be at least 19 good ones which of course nobody wants to acknowledge as they don't have any scandal attached.

To those blaming the current state of affairs on the conservative party, I would actually say that you can put a fairly firm date on when this started to get to this state - 1997 and a certain Mr Blair making quotas the most important thing.

Originally posted by something wicked
While I would never expect you of all people to try and show other countries health systems in a bad light,

I certainly didn't. I posted an article and said ... "what gives"?
I asked the question as to why was it happening.

The actual text says 'thousands' are NOT dying of hunger and thirst. 1,165 divided by four years is 291 per year.

The article states that over a thousand people died of hunger and thirst. That means saying 'thousands died' is accurate. The number is in the thousand(s) range. And 5,000+ managed to survive their hospital ordeal, but came out suffering from hunger and thirst.

Facts I know are a pain, but why not try balancing an article before posting it?

Facts I know are a pain, but why not try reading the information and the stories from people who have suffered poor care and accept that it does happen? As for 'balancing an article' ... I posted the article. If you disagree .. go ahead and post something showing it to be wrong.

Flyersfan, I know you want to demonise the NHS because it can show that even here in nasty socialist Europe (in your eyes) there are better ways of doing some things than how it's done in America -

You know NOTHING about me. I said NOTHING about this being a problem because of National Health Care. You really should read the thread before you make assumptions.

get over yourself!

How about YOU get over YOURself?

My other half recently had a stay in hospital after an operation. No complaints about availability or quality of food or water.

Good. Glad to hear it.
Unfortunately, many thousands of others don't have that same level of care.

could you provide the equivalent mortality rates for North America?

I googled a lot ... all I could find was similar stories like this coming from Australia.

However, since you are so paranoid and think that I'm just picking on England or something ... I suggest you read these ATS threads ... pay close attention to the posts I authored. And then you can go eat your BIG helping of CROW.

ATS Thread - Death By Medical Mistake - big Numbers
ATS Thread - Doctors are 9,000 more times likely to kill you than gun owners
ATS Thread - Odds of Intensive Care Medical Errors are over 100%
ATS Thread - Guess What's the Leading Cause of Death in the USA?
ATS Thread - Big Pharma Payoffs to Doctors Revealed
ATS Thread - Hospitals are the 8th Leading Cause of Death in the USA

reply to post by beezzer


well it's already there so don't try to claim our system is working, because it's not working any better.

Originally posted by something wicked
you don't know how many of those were not suffering from malnutrition beforehand,

And if they were, then being in the hospital a nutrionist should have been making sure
that they get proper nutrition and hydration. Don't you think?

Do you know what malnutrition is? You apparently think it means starving - it doesn't.

Don't talk down to me. I'm a very well educated person with a good college degree.
I know fully well what malnutrition is as well as dehydration.

Nobody is denying the horror stories,

Yes ... there definately are some who are.

To those blaming the current state of affairs on the conservative party, ...

Again .. I blamed no one and nothing. I asked the question .. why does this happen?

reply to post by FlyersFan


'Thousands' by its definition is multiples of thousands - that's fairly much maths 101.

Your thoughts on non North American healthcare systems are fairly much clear for all to see based on your posts in other threads - again, get over yourself.

I made clear that there are reported - very heavily reported - cases of mis management. Your lack of balance is using one article and not using any representative data from other countries, plus not apparently knowing what malnutrition means (don't worry about that though, I'm sure the Daily Mail person didn't either).

Your bias to anything other than the healthcare system you grew up with is blindingly clear - why pretend to show otherwise?

Many thousands do have the same level of care - you are reading headlines, not facts.

We don't eat crow over here - horse meat apparently, but not crow as far as I'm aware.

reply to post by something wicked

blah blah blah ... you didn't even read the links I provided did you?
You seriously look silly now.
I exposed the problems with the American hospitals and doctors in other threads.
But this one is for the problem in England.

Deal with it. Oh .. and do yourself a favor ...
go read the freak'n links provided before you continue.

This may sound a bit off topic.... I am not sure it really is though, because of the deeper political undertow here...

But I was looking at the hospital situation where I am, and how very different it is, and asked myself "Why? What is the key ? Why is the care so good at our hospital?"

The thing is, people here fight to get a job in a hospital! Especially if it is state owned, because if you get in you have good benefits and good pay. People strive to keep their job- it is a very competative atmosphere.
Any nurse that would forget to feed a patient would probably be ratted out by a collegue hoping to get her fired and get a friend in her position.

And yes, we pay big taxes here to have such care, but the people seem to feel that is worth it, and they still pay less than the Americans do all around.

This, in connection with the suggestion that such bad care is due to a system being socialized. I think it only is a possibility if the people are split about what they want- like wanting to pay no or low taxes, and also have a socialized med program! it might be contradicting values?

Originally posted by Bluesma
But I was looking at the hospital situation where I am, and how very different it is, and asked myself "Why? What is the key ? Why is the care so good at our hospital?"

There ya go. Someone actually addressing the TOPIC of the thread.
Hint to certain other posters ... I am not the topic.

Yes .. you have good health care and good hospitals .. so what is the key?
That's a good question.

As people can see by the other threads I have participated in ... I am not a fan
of the healthcare in America and I don't know what the answer is to getting
better health care here. The problem here seems to be with the doctors and
that they are in the back pockets of the BIG PHARMA.

As to what the problem is in England with these people not getting the proper care?
I have no idea. But your question is the right one to ask .... what is going on in the hospitals
that give good care ... is it the staffing? is it the attitude? is it the hiring practices?
what? I simply don't know at this point.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by something wicked
you don't know how many of those were not suffering from malnutrition beforehand,

And if they were, then being in the hospital a nutrionist should have been making sure
that they get proper nutrition and hydration. Don't you think?

Do you know what malnutrition is? You apparently think it means starving - it doesn't.

Don't talk down to me. I'm a very well educated person with a good college degree.
I know fully well what malnutrition is as well as dehydration.

Nobody is denying the horror stories,

Yes ... there definately are some who are.

To those blaming the current state of affairs on the conservative party, ...

Again .. I blamed no one and nothing. I asked the question .. why does this happen?

Why does it happen - it depends what you mean by 'it'. I've made it clear it's well known that there have been cases of neglect - not that it is proven this was intentional neglect but some Trusts (they run autonomously) have cut staff numbers for financial reasons which means some staff may not be in a position to provide the level of care they should - that's a fact.

For the rest if it, it's assumptions. If you are admitted to hospital the worse for ware through alcohol and are discharged the next day you will still be showing as having signs of dehydration, that's a fact. If you went into hospital as a person with a poor diet but your actual treatment was for another sympton, depending on your length of stay, you will still leave showing signs of malnutrition - another fact.

I keep asking you for balance - does no one ever die in a hospital outside of the UK? Are malnutrition/dehydration levels for people leaving hospital in North America measured? If not, how do you know where the UK stands in relation to other countries? Surely that is what an ATS thread should be about.

reply to post by Bluesma


Bluesma, I have a question, when a meal is cooked in the hospital, are the meals precooked cans of food? Does the staff make fresh soup or Canned? Does the cooking staff use powdered eggs and add water, or do you crack fresh eggs and cook them? Do they chop fresh vegies or are they canned or frozen?
There isn't very much nutrition in processed foods, could that be part of the problem???

Originally posted by something wicked
I keep asking you for balance - does no one ever die in a hospital outside of the UK?

I keep telling you to read the ATS links provided.
I made it easy and even bumped them for you.
There have been PLENTY of threads here about medical error in the USA.
I even started a few of them.
Kinda blows your whole premise apart.

If YOU don't agree with the article .. then YOU go find the information to dispute it
and post it instead of whining and telling off topic lies about me.

Even though this is very sad, I am not all all surprised. Budget cuts and lack of skilled workers are the main culprits.

In my state, people die in emergency because there isn't enough doctors to treat everyone. I know a doctor in my local hospital that works 96 hours a week, not to mention he's on call as well. He has no one to cover his shifts, because there's no one that has the training to do so.

It's B.S. Gov'ts all around the world pi$$ away millions upon millions of dollars on their election campaigns, yet somehow they claim there is not enough in the coffers to fix our hospitals.

Originally posted by Thecakeisalie
Even though this is very sad, I am not all all surprised. Budget cuts and lack of skilled workers are the main culprits.

It could be. I know that around here there is a shortage of nurses. And I'm wondering if the nurses or assistants who get their degrees online are as good as those who get them at a regular college.

Last time I was in an emergency room here in the city, a little girl with the flu threw up in the waiting room. Five hours later when I was leaving, the throw up was still there. I know that 'they' knew it was there because I heard the nurses calling for clean up. But no one came. The flu infested puke was sitting on the ER floor for at least five hours.

The janitoral staff either didn't care or was over worked and couldn't get to it.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Could the two of you argue in private email. It gets old trying to read relevant replies while wading through BS.

reply to post by misskat1

People need to stick to the topic. I am not the topic. The topic is that people are dying in hospitals due to dehydration and malnutrition. Unfortunately, some people are trying to deflect from that topic by posting falsehoods about me. Sad but true. But no thanks .. I don't want to hear that bunk from anyone via U2U either ...

ON TOPIC ... why are people in hospitals dying from thirst and hunger?

Have hiring standards of employees been laxed?
Do people just not care about others anymore?
Budget cutbacks at the hospitals?
Lack of education of the employees?

In the USA the problem isn't with hunger and thirst in hospitals .. not really. It's MISDIAGNOSIS by doctors and it's doctors and hospitals being in bed with Big Pharma and so those doctors prescribe drugs that are either wrong or unnecessary. So the reason big problem here in the USA is pretty easy to spot ...

But I just don't know what the reason for the hunger and thirst problem in the UK is ...
It's not as easy to see as the big problem here ...

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by something wicked
I keep asking you for balance - does no one ever die in a hospital outside of the UK?

I keep telling you to read the ATS links provided.
I made it easy and even bumped them for you.
There have been PLENTY of threads here about medical error in the USA.
I even started a few of them.
Kinda blows your whole premise apart.

If YOU don't agree with the article .. then YOU go find the information to dispute it
and post it instead of whining and telling off topic lies about me.

edit on 3/4/2013 by FlyersFan because: spelling 'off'

No, this isn't about medical error, it's much more specific than that. That's why I asked the question.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by misskat1

 

People need to stick to the topic. I am not the topic. The topic is that people are dying in hospitals due to dehydration and malnutrition. Unfortunately, some people are trying to deflect from that topic by posting falsehoods about me. Sad but true. But no thanks .. I don't want to hear that bunk from anyone via U2U either ...

ON TOPIC ... why are people in hospitals dying from thirst and hunger?

Have hiring standards of employees been laxed?
Do people just not care about others anymore?
Budget cutbacks at the hospitals?
Lack of education of the employees?

In the USA the problem isn't with hunger and thirst in hospitals .. not really. It's MISDIAGNOSIS by doctors and it's doctors and hospitals being in bed with Big Pharma and so those doctors prescribe drugs that are either wrong or unnecessary. So the reason big problem here in the USA is pretty easy to spot ...

But I just don't know what the reason for the hunger and thirst problem in the UK is ...
It's not as easy to see as the big problem here ...

The falsehoods thing I believe is referring to me, it isn't a falsehood - you do not agree with what is the closest to the NHS system you are likely to get in America - you have made that clear in other posts. So again, you say hunger and thirst are not problems in American hospitals - prove no cases of dehydration or malnutrition (which may or may not be the fault of the hospital) or just say you picked an article at random which you cannot say gives a clear and balanced view and may or may not be a rough average for any developed country because you don't have any information to prove the case either way.

You started the thread, you don't appear to understand the difference between thousands and just over a thousand in a four year period (although one avoidable death is one too many, not argument there). Give some meat to the bones - isn't that what an opening post on ATS is supposed to be about?

Originally posted by misskat1
reply to post by Bluesma

 

Bluesma, I have a question, when a meal is cooked in the hospital, are the meals precooked cans of food? Does the staff make fresh soup or Canned? Does the cooking staff use powdered eggs and add water, or do you crack fresh eggs and cook them? Do they chop fresh vegies or are they canned or frozen?
There isn't very much nutrition in processed foods, could that be part of the problem???

The meals are largely made from scratch! I found that surprising at first, actually. To have to make our pie crust from scratch, to spend hours peeling fruits and veggies. The soup is made with frozen vegetables though that we then blend once cooked, and the sanitary laws do not allow us to have eggs still in shell- we do not use powdered eggs, but one that are mixed raw in containers (liquid).

We have two dietitians that we work with that follow all the patients in the hospital and choose their meals according to their individual needs (this alone would make it very hard for any malnutrition to go unoticed! )

The quality if really good. In some cases, the dietitian assigns them salt-free, or fat free, meals, which might make them seem less tasty than one what one is used to. But the nuritional quality is good;

But I do think that might be very particular about France- they are obsessed with food, and even in schools, kids sit at round tables and have each course brought to them one at a time, and it is all made from scratch. (nary a pizza or hamburger would find it's way here!)

So this might not be representative of England or Australia- I do not know.