Thought Experiment Regarding God

Originally posted by ImaFungi
I think about ...everything a lot. Physics and philosophy.

I can tell you're very knowledgeable when it comes to these topics. That is why I have enjoyed your thread so much. Some of your posts even read as if I was reading my own mind - up until now I hadn't seen such like mindedness like that. Even the joke about a job from God is very much like me. I feel like my desire to understand God and the universe is so strong that it is almost debilitating.

Energy evolution simulation, what would that mean? What started this simulation, what is doing the simulating? where did the energy come from?

I do not visualize laws or forces of nature to be unseen forces floating out in space somewhere - I see them as concepts or instructions held within energy. I think the forces being concepts within the energy itself, instead of forces acting upon energy, better explains to me how plants, animals, and all other matter behaves since they all seem to be able to be manipulated or change based on what is communicated to them, and it all seems to be progressively headed to an end result.

The way I see it is as if the energy itself understands instructions on a quantum scale. Not only does it help me better understand why the scientific universe does what it does, it fits extremely well together with my religious ideology as well as supernatural. This is where simulation comes in...

I think energy must have gone through some evolutionary process while retaining their instructions. The trouble is, I cannot see if our God created the evolutionary process or if he is a part of it. The way I see the universe is that there must be some driving force behind everything, not just life. The driving force seems to be so thorough in its end goal, however, that it begs to question: Is it God or post human seeking God.

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

Hm, ok. I dont know if you understand the motives of my inquiry, but ok. So the non illusory perspective of a stance you have chosen is that there is a grand master of this universe? Is it the grand master of the universes next door too?

The "Grand Master" is Non-dual, no separation, Infinity, existence itself, all things quantum, all possibilities, every Universe that ever has been, Is, and Ever will be.

This Infinite One, can be experienced directly, but is beyond what the mind can fathom

Ok, and this infinite one is a single spirit? One personality, that can have feelings? Does it have free will? hes just one big lonely father?

What if i were to say I know there is a double infinte one, who is twice as powerful as the one you are talking about, he is non dual, and duel, and tripplality, hes separate and non separate, and he is beyond what the grand masters mind can fathom. If I dont know what I just said, how do you know what you said?

reply to post by ImaFungi

What if i were to say I know there is a double infinte one, who is twice as powerful as the one you are talking about, he is non dual, and duel, and tripplality, hes separate and non separate, and he is beyond what the grand masters mind can fathom. If I dont know what I just said, how do you know what you said?

Because I've experienced it and also remember what existence was like prior to having a body and being born on earth. I remember the Source of life, and still have access and experience this Source ....which is accessible and can be experienced by all. We all come from this, but we forget when the human body is born.

Ok, and this infinite one is a single spirit? One personality, that can have feelings? Does it have free will? hes just one big lonely father?

Single? Yes. One? Yes. Personality? Beyond personality .....so in a sense No. Free Will? Beyond free will so to answer yeas and no when something beyond yes and no is quite difficult.

Lonely? No.

The Ocean can be said to be technically One giant Ocean without boarders, yet within it contains Zillions of Life forms which are born and die in it.

The One I speak of is like the Ocean of Infinite Existence, and we are merely drops of water. Being a drop of water, it is possible to eventually fall from the sky and merge with the Ocean

If God is infinity then he is also finite. Another way of looking at it, is that our capacity to perceive, with common senses precludes us from understanding, we are also infinite.

The issue of God being infinite presents a certain order within infinity.

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

If nothing but God can exists without God, wouldn't you say infinity is more limited to God, and not the other way around? Granted infinity is endlessness, and yes God has limits, such as creating himself for the first time, etc, but nearly everything else I would consider fair game for God.

I personally dont know if God created himself for the first time, i dont know how something can create itself. And your first statement, only God can exist without God doesnt make much sense to me either. Ok so the concept of infinity depends on exactly what exists to create the aspects of infinity. But I was more saying it, even though Infinity may depend on Gods actions (or what of infinity is able to exist) even God can still surprise himself and be surprised is what I was suggesting. Because things can exist now and later, that may not ever have existed prior, these new novel things which exist are an aspect of an all and ever encompassing concept of 'infinity' (the totality of all things past and present). So if God created this universe, and then this universes intelligence create a universe, and then that creates a universe, and conscious beings have free will, (all of these actions and events being an infinitesimally detail-ably small portion of an overarching set of eternal infinity) events can occur that were non predictable from Gods standpoint. Basically all im trying to say is that God cannot know everything, because everything does not yet exist. And it definitely wouldn't have been knowable and existing if only God existed. These facts right there, lead me to believe that the reason universe or universes exist is God or natures way of attempting to understand infinity, or all possibilities, in order to compare and measure, and make sense, determine absolutes, know, or just to do. How could God have known what you would do every second of your life when he created the universe, when in my mind, he didnt even know that exactly you would come into existence at all, because in my mind, you parents didnt have to have a child or meet.

I don't think God would destroy himself, I was just using that as an example to show limitation. And I cannot imagine a world without a God. I think that without instruction there can be no structure. I don't think any protons, neutrons, electrons would have ever formed. We would still be in the form of God's word/code/energy without form.

I just dont get why God would just randomly form at some point in the past, or how one can say God always has existed, what does that make God, why was it chosen for that duty and by whom? why is that any more believable then saying energy has always existed, and this universe is just the current form it is taking on?

Yes I can conceive of God being in a computer with us. It's certainly possible, but there still must be instructions and something to start that off. For all I know God is a robot but that wouldn't change him in my eyes. I see God as the creator of our realm. If God has a God then I think he must be some post human with no emotions. Someone who is only running a simulation to try to determine how their universe came about. That is to say, yes, we could possibly be a simulation inside a simulation. There seems to be a drive to produce something. That something being souls, concepts and information, or more energy. At least, that's what it appears to be to me.

Well the definitions of a robot and machine are blurry in nature, because humans or life are a type of robot or machine, nature itself is a type of mechanistic machine and computation of physical information to perpetuate function. Humans and life are just a very gooey type of machine, using these weird functions of atoms (biology), If we made a human from scratch out of all the atoms that go into making a human, but create and write a brand new DNA sequence for it, and grow this human, would it have a 'soul'? if it was made of exactly the same stuff as a human in every way? Do you think animals have souls? insects? why were they so unlucky to be a dung beetle or maggot, and you so lucky to experience humanity?

Originally posted by Bleeeeep

Even the joke about a job from God is very much like me.

I wasnt joking If hes the master boss, and I was nothing and now I am because of him, of course I would want an apprenticeship. He already knows im not good with math though, I hope he has calculators.

I do not visualize laws or forces of nature to be unseen forces floating out in space somewhere - I see them as concepts or instructions held within energy. I think the forces being concepts within the energy itself, instead of forces acting upon energy, better explains to me how plants, animals, and all other matter behaves since they all seem to be able to be manipulated or change based on what is communicated to them, and it all seems to be progressively headed to an end result.

I dont see them as floating around either. I see individual pieces of a whole system, that interact with one another according to what each piece it is and in what way it is moving.

I think energy must have gone through some evolutionary process while retaining their instructions. The trouble is, I cannot see if our God created the evolutionary process or if he is a part of it. The way I see the universe is that there must be some driving force behind everything, not just life. The driving force seems to be so thorough in its end goal, however, that it begs to question: Is it God or post human seeking God.

What driving force do you see? what is its end goal?

Originally posted by dominicus


Because I've experienced it and also remember what existence was like prior to having a body and being born on earth. I remember the Source of life, and still have access and experience this Source ....which is accessible and can be experienced by all. We all come from this, but we forget when the human body is born.

Thats awesome. Just sucks I cant believe you because ive learned that people are generally crazy and have the ability to make up anything, lie, believe wrong things, and all for many different reasons and in different ways. Which is why im skeptical. I want to know the truth, not find and hold on to a belief that may be wrong.

What was existence like prior to having a body? in that stage, what are you, why are you? Why are you just given an existence there? How long did you exist in that realm and what were you and where were you before that? What is the source of life? Its point of existence is just to be a charity and create as many lives as possible, why is it doing this? what does it want? why did it make the universe in the manner it did? why not better? why not much different?

Single? Yes. One? Yes. Personality? Beyond personality .....so in a sense No. Free Will? Beyond free will so to answer yeas and no when something beyond yes and no is quite difficult.

Can it end the universe right now if it wanted to? Can it turn all the stars into disco balls for a few seconds? Can it make all the seas into chocolate milk? Why doesnt it do more experimental things like these, why doesnt it interact more?



.

The Ocean can be said to be technically One giant Ocean without boarders, yet within it contains Zillions of Life forms which are born and die in it.

The One I speak of is like the Ocean of Infinite Existence, and we are merely drops of water. Being a drop of water, it is possible to eventually fall from the sky and merge with the Ocean

nice

Originally posted by Kashai
If God is infinity then he is also finite. Another way of looking at it, is that our capacity to perceive, with common senses precludes us from understanding, we are also infinite.

The issue of God being infinite presents a certain order within infinity.

edit on 7-3-2013 by Kashai because: modified content

According to me the word Infinity pertains to one concept and only one concept: the totality of all things, not one of those things or a few things, but all things that have ever exist, and all things that ever will, is the concept of Infinity according to me.

So yes, God is a part of infinity, you and I are a part of infinity, but we are not infinity. If infinity is what is infinite then we are not infinite because we are not infinity.

Now I will admit there are some qualities of high detail, sophistication, processing of information, randomness, free willingness, that makes it impossible to predict the full details of a humans experience, and in this sense the information cannot be caluclated so it can said to be an infinite amount of information, because also it is always a quantity and quality that is changing, from our point of view right now, we are not dead, so there is no knowable limit to the information (even though we know that we physically die at some point, that is one limiting factor, giving a range to the infiniteness or unlimitedness)

reply to post by ImaFungi




Life after death is life and have you ever considered being dead is not fundamentally different than being alive?

Are paranormal experiences the result of the expression of some idea of what it is like to be dead?

The brain comprehends only what the senses offer.

reply to post by ImaFungi


I do understand your view completely but...

I think where you're having trouble seeing my view point is because we all think linearly. We are bound to it because it's used to understand progression. We think that God must have first seen or heard one thing at one moment in order for him to learn that thing, and then progress his knowledge based on prior knowledge.

The way I think of time, in regards to what God must experience, is that God exists in a realm where there is no time at all. The moment he was born he created our realm, gave Adam and Eve life, you were reading this sentence for the first time, all while we are all in heaven with God now, and this very same moment continues for eternity.

I think the only reason we even have to experience this place, and time, is because this is where, and how, God chose to create our souls, and here, and in hell, is where souls are meant to mature mentally.

Maybe it would help to think of time as relative, as in the way Einstein thinks, and God is moving so fast forwards and backwards through time that it becomes a single moment, and the only way to distinguish one moment from another is when God makes a choice. Idk. I know it's hard to think of anything without time, so I do understand your view for that reason.

I'm with you 100% on the robot/human/machine/whatever thing. I think what sets us apart from a robot or an animal, in physical terms, is completely irrelavent. I think the thing that makes us us are souls. I think protohuman evolved along with the rest of energy evolution. Meaning protohumans were literally animals without souls. I think that because of God's fondness of protohuman, or rather what humans with souls will become (keep in mind he sees all at once), that he created a more perfected copy of protohuman (adam and eve) and eventually gave humans souls. So to answer why us and not animals, I think animals and all of evolution was God's way of making us. He knew when he made this universe and so everything was planned, not only to produce humans, but to produce a place to have them mature to his liking. It's hard explaining something that has/is happened all at once without linear thinking. As far as animals not having something nearly equivalent to an afterlife – I don't know that they don't. They may have some special place they go to after death as well. Also, I think it's said that not even early humans had souls. I think they are said to be in God's heart, but not heaven.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
I dont see them as floating around either. I see individual pieces of a whole system, that interact with one another according to what each piece it is and in what way it is moving.

Can you elaborate? Gravity for example: is it an unseen individual piece such as a boson is consider to be? Something inside only some particles that cause them to be weighted? If so, do you not see that even boson must be made up of the same type of energy that electrons are made up of? My view is that there is no difference in any form of particle/wave other than their current concept. They change their form as their concept is changed. Will/faith and instruction can change their concepts. That is what I brushed on in my evolution of concept theory. I cannot see them as being something different - only their concept is different.

What driving force do you see? what is its end goal?

Either to produce souls for God or to produce concepts for posthuman. I think it's God, but I cannot rule out posthuman, or post something, that is looking for answers.