Most civilized humans in history did not utilize the wheel.

Seems to me the people of the Americas did not discover how to make iron, being the material of choice in cultures to stop wheels falling apart (iron wheel rims) so therefore gave up rather early on wheeled transport.

Originally posted by rickymouse

There is evidence of copper from this area in the tools and shields of ancient civilizations of the Mediterranean area from BC.

Really? Got any links? "from BC" is a pretty vague, what exactly are you suggesting? Earlier you seemed to say that Europeans settled North America in 3500 BC - I was wondering where you got this from, as all the evidence points towards Asian settlers 14,000 years ago.

There are people trying to find evidence of the trade routes.

So far there is none. It seems sensible to base conclusions on the available evidence, rather than imagined evidence. If there was a trade route then why did nobody think to bring something useful like the horse from Europe? Why was there no interbreeding at all?

Someday this will be proven.

Why do you think this?

I suppose you believe Columbus discovered America also.

The Vikings were the first Europeans to get there, however you can make a good case for Columbus "discovering" America for the Europeans, in that he went there and came back to tell everyone about it. That's not what we were discussing however, as it has little to do with the first humans to come to the continent.

reply to post by FatherLukeDuke


Not all Indians have DNA that is Asian. Look at the DNA Evidence. Some are old Norse, some are from people found in the Giza area. There seems to be a diverse source for their genetics.

Archeologists would not accept the Asian link you talk about at first even though there was very strong evidence to prove it including carbon dating. I doubt if some still believe it.

Originally posted by rickymouse
reply to post by FatherLukeDuke

 

Not all Indians have DNA that is Asian. Look at the DNA Evidence. Some are old Norse, some are from people found in the Giza area. There seems to be a diverse source for their genetics.

Archeologists would not accept the Asian link you talk about at first even though there was very strong evidence to prove it including carbon dating. I doubt if some still believe it.

Man, you are way off base with current thinking, and you seem to be just avoiding my questions without providing any evidence of your own. Your original assertion was that the Indians avoided using the wheel because of the "great wars" caused by chariots in Europe - a pretty silly claim at any level.

Every DNA study now confirms that the Native Americans came from Asia. The latest studies actually seem to indicate 3 waves of migration - all from Asian Siberia:

Scientists have found that Native American populations — from Canada to the southern tip of Chile — arose from at least three migrations, with the majority descended entirely from a single group of First American migrants that crossed over through Beringia, a land bridge between Asia and America that existed during the ice ages, more than 15,000 years ago.

By studying variations in Native American DNA sequences, the international team found that while most of the Native American populations arose from the first migration, two subsequent migrations also made important genetic contributions.....

.....In the most comprehensive survey of genetic diversity in Native Americans so far, the team took data from 52 Native American and 17 Siberian groups, studying more than 300,000 specific DNA sequence variations called Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms to examine patterns of genetic similarities and differences between the population groups.

The study of Native American populations is technically very challenging because of the widespread occurrence of European and African mixture in Native American groups
Professor Andres Ruiz-Linares
The second and third migrations have left an impact only in Arctic populations that speak Eskimo-Aleut languages and in the Canadian Chipewyan who speak a Na-Dene language. However, even these populations have inherited most of their genome from the First American migration. Eskimo-Aleut speakers derive more than 50% of their DNA from First Americans, and the Chipewyan around 90%. This reflects the fact that these two later streams of Asian migration mixed with the First Americans they encountered after they arrived in North America.

“There are at least three deep lineages in Native American populations,” said co-author David Reich, Professor of genetics at Harvard Medical School. “The Asian lineage leading to First Americans is the most anciently diverged, whereas the Asian lineages that contributed some of the DNA to Eskimo–Aleut speakers and the Na-Dene-speaking Chipewyan from Canada are more closely related to present-day East Asian populations.”

Read the full article here

or more: Genetic link between Native Americans and Asians strengthened

I believe he is referring to the copper mines in the area of the great lakes that showed mining evidence at a very early stage.

In prehistoric times, large quantities of copper were mined on Isle Royale and the nearby Keweenaw Peninsula. The region is scarred by ancient mine pits and trenches up to 20 feet deep. Carbon-14 testing of wood remains found in sockets of copper artifacts indicates that they are at least 5700 years old. In Prehistoric Copper Mining in the Lake Superior Region, published in 1961, Drier and Du Temple estimated that over 1.5 billion pounds of copper had been mined from the region. However, David Johnson and Susan Martin contend that their estimate was based on exaggerated and inaccurate assumptions.[7][8]

wiki


There are a multitude of associated claims and theories.

What I am getting is that the point of this article is that Native Americans were "technological deficient" by choice rather than circumstance? Are you saying they were essentially "amish" then?

reply to post by FatherLukeDuke

Lenape
www.frozentrail.org...

Ojibwa
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Your article only states that there is evidence that dominant alleles from the original settlers is present in many of the Indians, it doesn't show that no other cultures blended with them because it wasn't a part of their research. To find the whole truth you have to combine the data from the articles throughout the world. There was European blood mixed in throughout that time. Down in the far south there is evidence of Spanish blending and possibly some other cultures from the Mediterranean.

Your evidence only shows that the people intermingled. It only proves that some of the DNA was inherited from a common ancestor. The results were probably based on DNA acquired from a few members of each tribe also, they did not test every Family line out there. The allele they talk about is dominant also.

I studied research on the Lenape and the Ojibwa and Chippewa because they were the tribes that were around here. I don't know much about the other ones.

reply to post by vind21


I think people from European countries, Asia, and also the Mediterranean countries got sick of the wars and forced labor to build their cities and decided to leave and live a better life without all the crap that was going on in Europe.

I also think they traded with the people that brought them here. The ancient Herbal knowledge of the Indians about medicine includes some stuff discovered in other parts of the world after the people came over 14000 years ago showing there was at least contact.

If the pyramids were built after 14000 years ago, how would the American Pyramids be so similar? There was contact within the last five thousand years and settlers also.

Originally posted by rickymouse
Lenape
www.frozentrail.org...

This is referring to the Norse colony, not to the original human settlers 14,000 years ago:

But thousands of Lenape migrated from Greenland to America in 1350. Over half of the men would have had European DNA. That European DNA might be found in over half of all Lenape speaking Americans. Tevis Thompson, a male descendant of Powhatten, has European DNA. So Powhatten had European DNA.

There was European blood mixed in throughout that time. Down in the far south there is evidence of Spanish blending and possibly some other cultures from the Mediterranean.

Well, there is since 1492, of course. There isn't any evidence of intermingling before then.

Anyway, this is all tangential to the topic - I'm happy to debate it on a new thread if you want to start one.

As to why they didn't develop the wheel...personally I think it was due to the lack of horses. If they had them they may well have done - in fact their whole society could have been radically different. Or maybe not - it's always going to be speculation.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer

Wheeled carts for transport are part and parcel with metallurgy.

Bless you. My industry is generally looked down upon as archaic/useless. So when I see posts like these I appreciate it.

reply to post by FatherLukeDuke


You are right, it is speculation without some more evidence. We don't even know for sure there were not horses here before the Spanish dropped them off. They could have assumed the ones they later found were from the original ones that were brought over by the Spanish. Just like we assume that all the white settlers were from the colonization after Columbus got here. The early settlers spoke many different languages. Nobody would have known when these white people got there. They couldn't expand the US territories into Canada because the Canadians were already there. I think that Europeans settlers were in Canada, complete with their horses, way before Columbus arrived down south.