Why was Jesus' Resurrection not convincing?

reply to post by wildtimes


For one thing, everything you've mentioned is speculation as well, so to attack a report made by board certified pathologists speculating on the exact cause of death from the information given in the text as well as exta-biblical historical narratives of the processes of crucifixion is blatant hypocrisy not to mention special pleading.

And it's from an OBVIOUSLY biased "Apologetcs Press": www.apologeticspress.org...

Ummm read the first paragraph. They have just quoted a decent portion of the JAMA report which is peer-reviewed. So it isn't their report, they merely copied it from the JAMA on their site. And besides all that, I previously showed you in another thread that the argument you are making trying to discredit the information by claiming the source is biased is an enormous fallacy of logic.

It's called a "circumstantial ad hominem" fallacy:

A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy in which one attempts to attack a claim by asserting that the person making the claim is making it simply out of self interest. In some cases, this fallacy involves substituting an attack on a person's circumstances (such as the person's religion, political affiliation, ethnic background, etc.). The fallacy has the following forms:

Here

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Nope, it's called survival, with the help of some rich and influential friends.

As far as James, the Just, I don't see him preaching the resurrection.

So just toss out the historical facts in place of wild arbitrary conjecture?

That makes rational sense.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Wild, you can try but there is no bad science in the bible. I promise, you may not believe me but I can provide a plausible counter to everything you can say.

sac,
my friend - and I do consider you my friend - I don't want to go toe to toe with you. I'm presenting my case as best I can, from the place that this all floats around, ever changing, between my ears and behind my eyes...

If you would like to do a line-by-line plausible apologist Bible dissection using every English translation out there, and can pull it off, by all means, do so. I will be amazed at the staggering amount of effort required.

For now, though, I'm going to respectfully decline your offer, and leave you with these thoughts, three people who have formulated statements that reflect how I think about these things, under whom I have "studied" through their written words, and with whom I agree insofar as any description of the Divine is going to be lacking:



and the final one is the same wise man quoted in my signature


You needn't defend yourself. Nor do I. We are alive - we have come into contact with one another. We have shared thoughts with one another, and that, in itself, is good enough. I'm not perfect, but I won't be chained to any other person's way of reaching out to the Ultimate. I know I get passionate about this stuff. In the end, it won't matter. For me, it's fun to think about -- even knowing I can only do that - think about it; but I have no use for fear, nor do I deserve punishment. None of us do.

Namaste
~wild

reply to post by wildtimes


Such an admirable and respectful post. It's not often I see participants in such a sensitive topic go out of their way to be respectful of other beliefs and yet steady in their own, and with such obvious all-around sincerity. I mean, usually such posts get buried amongst the fury of indignity and defensive ad hominem, so it's beautiful when I do see posts with such an authentic ring of mutual respect and good will.

Thank you for setting such a wonderful example.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Their report says they can only speculate. Which indicates that what you keep presenting as "truth" is NOTHING MORE THAN your PREFERRED version of things. Him being stabbed through the heart - which you claim is as good as proven, is speculation only, and in blatant disregard of the other very real - and more reasonable - possibilities.

Then you start name-calling, and tossing around debate terminology and Occam's razor. When you do that, it indicates you have shut down and are incapable of real discourse and common exploration of available data.

My husband's critical illness may be an "absurd straw man argument" in your opinion... forgive me, but it was a bit more than that to me. I don't care what you call it.

(For that matter, I don't care what you call me, except when you call me a liar and a hypocrite. Those hurt, and are underhanded and inappropriate allegations coming from your own internal issues.)

I was there, from him waking me up gasping "Emergency" - through eleven grueling days of treatment - and I saw what happened, I spoke to the doctors every day; I saw the images, I checked the tube, I insisted that I be fully informed with all the jargon and everything....and I researched the thing during breaks at home when his mom was there or he was simply sleeping.

....and that's more than you OR ANYONE will EVER be able to say about the crucifixion. I'm presenting reasonable alternatives based on real life.

Why that upsets you so much that you need to constantly attack me, and refuse to acknowledge that you might be wrong (I frequently state that I don't know and might be wrong) and try to ridicule my GOD-GIVEN ability to make sense of things and keep an open mind in the face of daily new knowledge, I ALSO don't know.

I can only speculate... but it seems, from what I am able to know about it, that you are not at peace, nor happy. And it's true that your behavior TOWARDS ME is decidedly "un-Christ-like". You refuse to continue to learn and research beyond your chosen comfort zone, having made up your mind not to budge. Those "apparent" qualities do more to turn me away from your position than any of your sources or debate terms.

That's all I have to say about it.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Not a Roman Teat (that Art History dog again) never fails to rear its ugly memorable belly (should have been a sow). Andrew Lloyd and the Timster Rice Can could not get the whole JCS concept/musical to fit in a 14.2 OZ Christmas can? I KNOW! unbelievable; and with what is done with the musical birthday cards these days. Joe Six Pack was an antiquated Robert Hall "Hallmark" greeting card kind of guy. The IT did happen without PROOF or the Did NOT happen UTUBE brigade what chance do you think anything 2000 years ago would be accepted as true. I can see it all now, many camera phone identees documenting the plight of the leprositic crowds. Jesus (THE COUNTRY BUMPKIN), begging someone (KURT COBAIN) you should have/were supposed to have been me you narcisistic GRUNGE-heroin blooded Man (SAVEY BEATLES LOVER) , YOU WERE ME, lets get in the time machine and exchange our lives/places---Aberdeen WA for Nazareth. Both of them killed themselves ultimately, one by a self inflicted shot gun blast to the face one by a total ignorance of "who are those Roman Centurian guards and what in the world is their intention with that cross and those nails?" situation.

Amazed also that Millsy&Boonsy haven't given it a go...could be turned into a beautiful love story kind of thing...😉
The musical birthday card would be perfect...

...compression of memory, short attention span, loss of memory...pharma effect, sleight of hand, infant cosplay...wondrous that there are any questions in that fog...

Of course...same - same...(jc/cob) and who will chart better? "Wise men say..."

There seems to be many 'kings'...perhaps some could be dug up...

A99

reply to post by akushla99


I can sense that you are attempting to convey some degree of skepticism, but regretfully, the specifics of your post are unclear to the point of incoherent mush.

If you would please revise your post for the convenience of all participating members, I would greatly appreciate it.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by windword

 

Why do you assume that having free will makes you imperfect? Quite honestly that is religious dogma. What you do makes you imperfect. We have the ability to overcome the addictions that bind us to our sin. We were made with the ability to be perfect in love, which is the only perfect that matters.

I never said anything about free will, or that it makes us imperfect! As humans, we need to accept the fact that we are not perfect, and will make mistakes. Self forgiveness is more important, in my opinion, than believing that a creator, who made us imperfect, needs to forgive our imperfections.

True love, of oneself or of others, doesn't come from an expectation of perfection, but from seeing the imperfections and loving them anyway.

You say natural laws even though we have no natural laws to explain how we are here. As long as we cannot explain how all mater and life came into existence the simplest explanation is a creator. Because creation does not follow natural laws it is safe to assume that the creator is not bound to the laws that he created.

Yes we do and yes we can. That's not to say that there aren't mysteries that are still unanswered.

I don't believe in a creator God, that resides outside of existence, and simply willed the universe into existence with a word and a magic wand. My God is the totality of all that exist, will exist and did exist.

I believe that we are spiritual entities, that are part of the universal consciousness, not separated from God, but part of God. God is within all of us, and we are all part of God, who is expressed through our free will. Our love of God is directly related to our love of and acceptance of ourselves.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Nope, it's called survival, with the help of some rich and influential friends.

As far as James, the Just, I don't see him preaching the resurrection.

So just toss out the historical facts in place of wild arbitrary conjecture?

That makes rational sense.

There are no "FACTS" regarding the resurrection of Jesus!

Any report, peer reviewed or not, that pretends to do autopsy on a dead body, where there was no dead body, as the patient was up and about, walking, talking and eating, is a report of "quackery."

Your pathologist is an intellectually dishonest apologetic quake used by the Catholic Church to promote their dogma onto society.

reply to post by windword


What you are saying sounds like you feel like you are here to serve yourself on your own journey and the mistakes you make, although they can have deep impact on others are simply part of life and the others that are impacted by your mistakes simply have to deal with it, because you are on your own journey.

Christ said to serve others is our purpose, and overcome our mistakes so we are not a burden to others on their path. And the only true joy, which is the love from God, comes when we serve others. So Christ said our purpose is to serve others and our emotions agree.

We all may be imperfect but according to Christ we have a choice. Remain imperfect or be made perfect like him. You can only be made perfect like him when you put into action the things that he said. You can continue down your path of mistakes and justify how your freedom impacts others or you can be made perfect. The choice is everyone's and every day we choose.

reply to post by windword


I am a FACT of the resurection. What I know as FACT I cannot prove to you. But that does not make it any less a FACT for me.

The bible is real, Christ lives in me, I live through his spirit. Everything the bible promises is the truth. Since I know he lives in me, because it is impossible for me to deny, I know it as FACT.

Everyone can know Christ as a FACT if they would simply do what he said. It matters much more that you do what he said than what you say you believe. Faith is doing not simply believing. Do what he said and you to can know FACT.

reply to post by wildtimes


"Name calling"?? Please explain.

And pointing out fallacies in logic, while often is done in debates, is a valid point to note in informal discussions and dialogue as well. Unless you're making the claim that if there isn't a formal debate then people are free to make irrational and illogical arguments. Which is absurd, a fallacy of logic is just that, an irrational proposition.

My husband's critical illness may be an "absurd straw man argument" in your opinion

I said no such thing. The absurd straw man you employed was to accuse me of calling you a liar about your husband's experience when I never even addressed that.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I have explained. Repeatedly. If you can't see what I'm talking about, what part of it is hard for you? You dismiss my intelligence and ability to discern my HUMAN EXPERIENCE from fantasy, to compare it to "traditional" or "apologetic" stances (which are not borne out with objectivity) and say that my behavior is "absurd", "blatantly hypocritical", and ---- accuse me of -- what are the other things? 'ad hominem', 'special pleading', 'logical fallacy', blah blah blah.

I have explained. I'm done doing so until you are able to own and address your own obstinacy. Until you are ready to say, "Well, that is a plausible idea that is worth considering," I am done with addressing your stagnant claims.

Whatever it is you "believe" you know about me, NuT, I assure you that a GOOD DEAL of it is mistaken...and still, I wish you well. I hope for your escape and recovery from the clutches of whatever keeps you boxed in.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Which is absurd, a fallacy of logic is just that, an irrational proposition.

I do not believe I have presented anything "irrational" regarding the crucifixion or its possible outcomes. You HAVE called me a liar, when I went to look into Lee Strobel and his "sources".

Your "apologetics" I guess, don't apply to real-life relationship/discussion and current-events assessment? No need to answer. ... just an idea for thought. ....
Or perhaps it's your style. Just providing feedback. Make of it what you will. I mean you no harm.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by windword

 

What you are saying sounds like you feel like you are here to serve yourself on your own journey and the mistakes you make, although they can have deep impact on others are simply part of life and the others that are impacted by your mistakes simply have to deal with it, because you are on your own journey.

I was born alone and will die alone. If I am not responsible for my own journey who is? You make me out to be a selfish person, incapable of loving and serving others, because I don't believe in the same god as you. This is an assumption that many Christians make in judging the life of others.

Christ said to serve others is our purpose, and overcome our mistakes so we are not a burden to others on their path. And the only true joy, which is the love from God, comes when we serve others. So Christ said our purpose is to serve others and our emotions agree.

Service to others is a natural progression of maturity. Life is geared toward serving others. We don't need Jesus to tell us that. As a mother, I assure you that service to others had been front and foremost in my life. My career has, and still does revolve around serving others.

We all may be imperfect but according to Christ we have a choice. Remain imperfect or be made perfect like him. You can only be made perfect like him when you put into action the things that he said. You can continue down your path of mistakes and justify how your freedom impacts others or you can be made perfect. The choice is everyone's and every day we choose.

News flash! I don't believe that Jesus was perfect. Read the "Infancy Gospels". The fact that Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert, even if only in his mind, means he sinned. Jesus readily admits in the Bible to being a winebibber. Drunkenness is clearly defined as sin under the Law.

Jesus may have been a wonderful man and marvelous teacher, but he was not a "god." He wasn't born of a virgin and he didn't die for my sins or rise from the dead. He is up there with Buddha, Lao Tzu, Gandhi, ect., but he was just a man that went through the same trials as the rest of us.

If we truly followed his teaching, we would be living in a communal society, working together for the good of the community. But, we don't live in society that honors the teachings of Jesus. We live in a capitalistic society, where greed is pervasive. Unfortunately, we still must render to Caesar, and find ways to be of service in our daily, mundane lives. Not because we are ordered to, but because it feels good to do so and enhances our experience of life on Earth to do good deeds.

reply to post by wildtimes


It's all good; I am friend to anyone regardless of their faith.

You, and really everyone who debates me, must understand that I defend a book that I believe has been misinterpreted for about 2000 years as a way to amass wealth and control.

I believe there is a scientific agenda that taught assumptions as facts in order to push their belief that the bible cannot be literally true. Since all scientific data based on origins, age of the earth, and speciation is all based on assumption. This is a fact, no one can dispute this that has any clue what they are talking about.

I have done the research, the psychologist, teachers, and school board said I was a genius when I was about 6 years old. I have the ability to retain 85% of what I read at a college level speed reading level. I taught myself Algebra in sixth grade. In High school I took Trig and turned in 0 homework assignments but average an A on all tests. The teacher gave me a D because he refused to acknowledge that the homework was a waste of my time. At the age of 32 I taught myself visual basic to write a fully functional labor model and production planning tool for the food industry. I taught myself visual basic by using Google.

I don't say any of this to brag. Merely to state my credential. Any intelligence or ability that I have I was born with so I can only say God made me this way for a purpose. For his purpose.

So if I say I spent 2 years researching something you can believe that I understood everything that I read no matter how scientific or complex sounding the authors would have you believe.

The truth "real science,", observable and repeatable, points toward creation and a young earth. Old Earth evolutionist will have you believe in their assumption laced riddle because the earth has to be old for evolution to be considered plausible. There are simply too many anomalies that Old Earth evolutionist simply cannot explain. But amazingly enough there is not one thing that a young earth Creationist cannot explain. This is also a fact.

So these are the facts, I have done the research. I have only become so ingrained in my beliefe because of research.

Realize that I believe that God is love and the fact that we are created proves he loves us. And I believe this is what the bible really says. If the book really says this, wouldn't you want to know. If the bible really puts forth a set of beliefs so undeniable sound and simple that everyone who hears the truth will understand at least one thing. The message in the bible is intended to bring us together.

Any dispute that we have that would prevent us from coming together should be set aside as not important to our overall journey and left as disputable. As long as these disputes are not matters where sin against another person is involved. Then by all means we should use the legal system. Because the law is for lawbreakers.

The problem is we can never come together unless collectively we can overcome our mistakes that impact the will of others. We cannot continue to sin against each other and expect to ever come together in peace. The bible is the only book that teaches us that we are "Gods" because we are "Gods children". And because we are Gods we can overcome anything. If we are Gods because we are children of God, should we not start at least defeating our own sin? The truth in the bible is we were made to be "like him". But to truly be like him we must always put love first.

Wild I am only such a preacher because an understanding has come to me. I believe in a book that literally no one believes in. The bible says the whole world will be fooled and they are. The message I bring to you, from the bible is the truth. The hole world has been deceived by a false interpretation, just like predicted. The RCC made everyone receive the mark of the RCC on their hand or forehead it was called the inquisition, it was real, Catholic or die. And everyone who refused to give up the truth was martyred, also predicted. www.mtc.org...

People say if just one prophecy of scripture was fulfilled they would believe. The mark of the RCC was required and everyone was fooled. Funny that the church that fulfills the prophecy of the anti-Christ is the one the rest of the world gives credit for writing it. I don't think I would prophecy against myself if I was writing a book to control you. Just saying.

Whatever path you land on I hope you find everything you hoped to find.

reply to post by windword

Jesus may have been a wonderful man and marvelous teacher, but he was not a "god." He wasn't born of a virgin and he didn't die for my sins or rise from the dead. He is up there with Buddha, Lao Tzu, Gandhi, ect., but he was just a man that went through the same trials as the rest of us.

If we truly followed his teaching, we would be living in a communal society, working together for the good of the community. But, we don't live in society that honors the teachings of Jesus. We live in a capitalistic society, where greed is pervasive. Unfortunately, we still must render to Caesar, and find ways to be of service in our daily, mundane lives. Not because we are ordered to, but because it feels good to do so and enhances our experience of life on Earth to do good deeds.

Yes.
That.

windword, your posts and thoughts are very significant, for me at least. So are those of others who are willing to discuss these things. I find a resonance with your writings here, and for that I thank you.
We are born alone, and die alone, but in between, we needn't be so "alone".

My heart swells with regard for you. Thanks for being here.

reply to post by windword


My claim is Jesus is the love of the world. So by my claim in order to have love you must have Jesus. Not that you know that you have him, but that you simply do. Jesus calls himself the light, love of the world. And quite literally the only way to experience real love is to do what he says.

I don't just make this stuff up. I put it into practice in my life. And his simple advice "turn the other cheek" literally always, even in the face of death. The words that changed my life "turn the other cheek", and the promise that I have the power in me to always "turn the other cheek". How do you turn the other cheek to murder, stop yourself at anger. How do you stop yourself from adultery, turn away the moment your eyes look in lust.

I hope you can see what I am saying; this may be the key to understanding why the bible and Christ simply cannot form a religion.

If Christ is love, and love is not something that we can feel apart from Christ, then it is proven to us that when we have felt love we have felt Christ. What the bible says is God is light, and Christ is light, and light is love. It teaches that light and darkness cannot reside together. When we sin darkness enters our heart and the light leaves. When we repent we are asking for the light to come back and push away the darkness.

You see if there is not enough light, or love in your life you are not doing what he said. You are living by your principles rather than his. I did not make up the principles of love, nor do I completely understand love, but I do know that doing what Christ said always brings love.

Do you see if Christ is love, than Grace and forgiveness must truly be for all men whether they agree with or accept it or not? There is no need to believe in anything for God to love you and forgive you. But you can only "know God" if you put you belief to work through the faith to live like Christ.

reply to post by wildtimes


Awe, thanks!

And, ditto to you, my friend.

And, oh, I still owe you a post in your thread. I apologize for the delay, it will be forthcoming, eventually.

reply to post by sacgamer25


I understand your passion, and respect your intelligence and your own journey.
I'm not Catholic, sac, I believe you know that.

As far as "no one believing the Bible is true," I have found many who do believe so.
Warmest thoughts toward you, your wife and your little girl.