Why was Jesus' Resurrection not convincing?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Did you read the post I made saying I would comment this week on it? If you missed it back up a page or two.

The participating population in this thread is not limited to just you and me. While you are busy taking your time to formulate what I'm sure will be a most insightful and educated post, I was hoping for other responses that would bridge the gap and maybe build up a little steam for you to crest off of.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I think you have a valid question, that could become a good discussion. The problem is, it is a bit off topic for this thread, about the resurrection and it's credibility.

How about starting a thread or you own on your thoughts and questions on love and tyranny?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


That's fine too, I just thought maybe you missed my post.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

What an absurd straw man,

Again with the "absurd straw man", and
Again with not addressing the questions and challenges posed.

Originally posted by namine
I find it difficult to believe that even the most hardheaded skeptic at the time would see a man who was supposed to be dead walking the Earth, shake their head and go, "No, I still think he's full of it."
...Why was doubt still cast over Jesus even after he rose from the dead? After the resurrection, followers of Jesus were still prosecuted and put to death, but why? Surely such a miraculous feat should've cemented their leader's gospel?
...It appears to me like there could only be two explanations for this. The resurrection happened in the most unconvincing way imaginable, except to his followers and whoever they managed to convince. Or, the resurrection never happened at all.
...

...Namine - I don't see how any honest human being could question the integrity of your question.
Have you ever noticed the name of the prisoner that was released back to the demanding crowd...by Pilate? ...
That being - Bar-Abbas...
If taking the phrase purportedly uttered by Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane...
"Abba, Father..."
...and the common Christian interpretation --
"Abba" and "Father" are synonymous...
And...recognizing that - "Bar"...is equivalent to - "Son of"...
Do we have a...potential problem...here?
"Give us Son of the Father! Release Son of the Father!"
What if...(as Christianity identifies)...the only begotten...Son of...God (Father)...was, in fact...the one that was...released?
...
Of course - such a preposterous tale could not be entertained...because - "How could so many --- in the day --- have been fooled into believing...such a...pre...pos...ter...ous...tale..."!?

Just a question...for your consideration...
(All fully convinced believers need not be distracted.)

Originally posted by sacgamer25
...We know that the creator is love, but some kids do not. Even athiest can't argue aginst teaching children how to love.
...

Well, then - I've been wondering precisely what I am...and, thanks to you - I know...I'm not atheist.
Much appreciation...
Teaching children "how to love".
Even - teaching children "love"...
These are questions we might entirely disagree on. Not that I'm looking for something to be disagreeable about...but - I'm not so sure that you & I &/or more than one or two others on this entire site...would entirely agree on what love is.
Presuming that this statement is accurate...I would have to call foul on your proclamation ("Even athiest (sic) can't argue aginst (sic) teaching children how to love.")...as I believe it would result in protests filed by the parent/s of virtually every child...taught.

Originally posted by WanDash

Originally posted by sacgamer25
...We know that the creator is love, but some kids do not. Even athiest can't argue aginst teaching children how to love.
...

Well, then - I've been wondering precisely what I am...and, thanks to you - I know...I'm not atheist.
Much appreciation...
Teaching children "how to love".
Even - teaching children "love"...
These are questions we might entirely disagree on. Not that I'm looking for something to be disagreeable about...but - I'm not so sure that you & I &/or more than one or two others on this entire site...would entirely agree on what love is.
Presuming that this statement is accurate...I would have to call foul on your proclamation ("Even athiest (sic) can't argue aginst (sic) teaching children how to love.")...as I believe it would result in protests filed by the parent/s of virtually every child...taught.

We can teach them diplomacy over fighting. Sharing over hoarding. The benefits of working together verses working apart. We can teach them that whenever possible we turn the other cheek if our actions could hurt another person.

Quite frankly if you don't believe that we have evolved enough to at least establish the basic principles of love in a format that we can relate to children, who have the natural propensity to love, then you have no faith in mankind and for you we are already doomed.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Just as you want me to believe that your truth is sufficient for you should you not also grant me the same? Disagreeing with the resurrection is fine, we can love each other even if we dispute the resurrection. But when you attack the resurrection you attack the faith that saved me. You don't want me to attack the faith that saves you, why are you doing to me?

Hi again, sac.

I know this was not asked of me directly, but I'd like to contribute.

I believe that "The truth is not determined by a show of hands". While I agree that some people might need it to be true, and by accepting it as such they are able to turn a corner and become more productive and have more peace of mind, that doesn't necessarily make it so.

Same with my beliefs of reincarnation and an afterlife; that my dad is really there when I dream about him. Can I prove it's true? No. I WANT to believe it's true. Maybe it's not, maybe it is. I don't know. But, like everyone else, I try to keep moving forward with courage and clarity of thinking. I might be dead wrong - in the literary and literal sense - but, it's the way I can manage my life.

What I'd like to find out is if others recognize that what they believe is part and parcel of their will to live....
but I'd also like to know the truth.
Therefore, my pain. I don't know, I know that I can't know, and I'm as human as everyone else. I'd just like to find a place where there's SOMETHING we can all agree on.
Love, in my opinion, is the anchoring truth.

Stop don't sell yourself short. If you say your father is there he is. In spirit all things are possible. Could be in the spirit of in the body who knows, but he is there. Your truth is true don't let anyone put a stumbling block in front of you. All things are possible for God, we are both right. And this is ok because we agree and establish through our communication that we know what we found is love. No separation unless we fear our brother/sister is on a path that does not lead to love.

Accept for a second the concept that everything is exactly the way it was meant to be. Live each day because tomorrow is God's will.

reply to post by windword


Well if the bible is the word of God, who do you think has it right? Me or what you have heard before me? Not asking you to believe, just which interpretation appears more likely to come from a God that you could understand? Not necessarily believe in just understand. Can you understand the possibility that God is love and if you can does that fit what you imagine as the truth.

If you can acknowledge that God could be love, then you can acknowledge the bible could be the truth. And this is the claim it makes.

1 John 4:8 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because "GOD IS LOVE".

I didn't make it up I just believed it could be true. And now I believe it is true and the interpretation of the bible in my head explains the relationship to God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, you and me and how it all points to the fact that God really is love.

Could it be possible? Could it be that simple? 6000-200,000,000, depending on whom you believe (still rooting for evolution? LOL) years to figure out God is love. Hmm collective Duh!!!!

How Do you pursue love? If you have to ask shoot yourself please. Just kidding but go get some help. HAHA

Gamer, you don't get enough credit here on this site for what you're doing. I don't know you, but after reading your posts, 90% of the time there is nothing to add except a spin off of your words.
peace

reply to post by Leuan


Thank you my friend. It is nice to know that I make since to some people.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

What an absurd straw man,

Again with the "absurd straw man", and
Again with not addressing the questions and challenges posed.

I wouldn't have to being it up if you didn't employ it. I said none of that and you know it.

Love vs Tyranny. Does the death of Jesus signify love...or something darker?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by sacgamer25


Well Sacgamer, I don't believe that the Bible is the word of God. I don't believe the guy who appeared in a burning bush, running around in a pillar of fire, ordering the death of anyone in the way of his rule, was God.

I think the Bible is filled with mythology and allegory, and was written by men who, at best were trying to explain the unexplainable, and at worst were trying to control others and justify their bad behavior.

The Problem With God
The 10 Commandments are Unnecessary, Irrelevant and Immoral
The Free Will Conspiracy of the Bible

My God doesn't have favorites, doesn't hold grudges, doesn't have enemies, doesn't write books and doesn't interfere. Everything we will ever need to know about God is found in written on our souls and in the universe around us.

Love is a word we use to express unity and separation, but there is no separation in God. God is everywhere and everything.

I was raised in an Assembly of God, Pentecostal environment and I read and studied the Bible many times over. I loved the stories of the Jacob's ladder, Ezekiel's visions and Jesus being ministered to by angels, and prayed for the gifts of visions and discernment. But, I eventually rejected the doctrine of Jesus being the only son of God, born of a virgin, his death and resurrection and the significance of a human blood sacrifice that was to please a jealous and blood thirsty god, because of our imperfections.

I believe the reformative character of Jesus was built around a real person, but that person was just a man, like Buddha was just a man, not a god. I think a lot of things were added to his story, that just aren't true, with the intention of creating a unified religion for the "new" Roman Empire.

I believe that the story of Jesus is a representation of all of our spiritual "Hero's Journey". And, there is much to be learned from the story, but ultimately, it's me, and me alone, that walks the path. Jesus can't live or die for me.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

I was raised in an Assembly of God, Pentecostal environment and I read and studied the Bible many times over. I loved the stories of the Jacob's ladder, Ezekiel's visions and Jesus being ministered to by angels, and prayed for the gifts of visions and discernment. But, I eventually rejected the doctrine of Jesus being the only son of God, born of a virgin, his death and resurrection and the significance of a human blood sacrifice that was to please a jealous and blood thirsty god, because of our imperfections.

You know that is what I thought about the church too. Someday I think i will be able to provide an interpretation that will reconcile these things for you. I say this not because it is necessary for you but because I have seen where the church has gone wrong in its interpretation. And I can only say that even their bad interpretation looks like it was given to them by God.

It is as if God knew evil men would arise and attempt to use his word for profit and control. So he gave them what they wanted. What they did is take about 10-20 passages at face value, even if the face value interpretation was against Christ's message of love. If you can look past the face value of these verses and ask yourself rather "is it possible these verses coincide", you will find the next level. The point at which all scripture is in agreement with love. Not just agreement with scripture but quite profoundly a level that could only have been inspired by him. Because we are not born with the wisdom that is found in the correct interpretation.

We are born with enough wisdom to see the path, but we are not born with enough wisdom to understand what is at the end of the path. If you earnestly seek the path than you will likely find it even apart from the Gospel. Because anyone who pursues love will find it and God is love. And when you find love you will find wisdom.

Basically what I am saying is that you can find love through love, and yes you have known since birth to love. So all the wisdom you needed to find God, who is love, was given to you at birth. But I am also saying that you can learn the wisdom of love when the Spirit of love, Holy Spirit, comes to you and reveals the message in the gospel to you.

The most amazing thing happens you will find your heart in agreement with everything that is written. At least in the NT, the OT is a tougher message indeed. Maybe I'm just crazy or maybe I'm right, wouldn't it be amazing if I'm right?

Originally posted by sacgamer25
...We can teach them diplomacy over fighting. Sharing over hoarding. The benefits of working together verses working apart. We can teach them that whenever possible we turn the other cheek if our actions could hurt another person.
...Quite frankly if you don't believe that we have evolved enough to at least establish the basic principles of love in a format that we can relate to children, who have the natural propensity to love, then you have no faith in mankind and for you we are already doomed.

For me, your first group of statements regarding “what we can teach them” is far too weak (imo)… Now we must address the differences between what your definition/s of diplomacy (&/or fighting), and mine/others' are. (I am not a big fan.)
Then – differences (limits, etc) of opinion on “what is hoarding?”, “what is survival?”, “when is sharing wrong?”…and a host of further qualifications…
Won’t even go into the grab bag of the “turn the other cheek” statement.
And, frankly…it wouldn’t matter if I believed that the evolutionary progress (which, I’m presuming you mean to be sociological, as opposed to physiological) of humanity had achieved the watermarks you proclaim, or not… IT IS NOT EVIDENT (to me).
So – how does your last statement work its way out of a fairy tale or epic fantasy?
Where are these “children…who have the natural propensity to love” coming from?
I think they’re coming from the same people that are currently fighting, hoarding and striking turned-cheeks… They’re coming from families that are well-to-do, all the way down to families that may starve to death, tomorrow…
“…if…you don’t believe…then…you have no faith in mankind…[etc…)”
Are you a geometry teacher?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Love vs Tyranny. Does the death of Jesus signify love...or something darker?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Tyranny hands down. Martyrdom is never a good thing. We love the fact someone else commited suicide to cleanse us (we are undeveloped children as far as God is concerned) left with no soap or washcloths or any direction at all as how to interpret a 'crucifixion'; in this time frame? You would think someone would have advanced this theory of blood sacrifice by a human being to embrace or include the 21st century outlook, unless this generation was never to have known of understand it in the FIRST PLACE causing even more confusion and loss of focus regarding 'who is and what is my creator'.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Love vs Tyranny. Does the death of Jesus signify love...or something darker?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Tyranny hands down. Martyrdom is never a good thing. We love the fact someone else commited suicide to cleanse us (we are undeveloped children as far as God is concerned) left with no soap or washcloths or any direction at all as how to interpret a 'crucifixion'; in this time frame? You would think someone would have advanced this theory of blood sacrifice by a human being to embrace or include the 21st century outlook, unless this generation was never to have known of understand it in the FIRST PLACE causing even more confusion and loss of focus regarding 'who is and what is my creator'.

" Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.". - Jesus

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Love vs Tyranny. Does the death of Jesus signify love...or something darker?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Tyranny hands down. Martyrdom is never a good thing. We love the fact someone else commited suicide to cleanse us (we are undeveloped children as far as God is concerned) left with no soap or washcloths or any direction at all as how to interpret a 'crucifixion'; in this time frame? You would think someone would have advanced this theory of blood sacrifice by a human being to embrace or include the 21st century outlook, unless this generation was never to have known of understand it in the FIRST PLACE causing even more confusion and loss of focus regarding 'who is and what is my creator'.

" Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.". - Jesus

The tea leaves appear to form a demon: what you want is not what you need.

Psalms 117 1.2 Praise the Lord all nations everywhere, praise him all the peoples of the earth for he loves us very dearly and his truth endures.

reply to post by namine


The testimony of his followers is the only evidence we have that Christ rose from the dead. Were his followers corrupt men of the world? Or were they honest dedicated men who gave their lives to His cause? Their story is told in the book of acts.