Why are Americans deluded into thinking they could win a civil war?

Originally posted by DAVID64
reply to post by sajuek

 

Hmmm. Doin a little diggin' there? Why ask someone to incriminate themselves on an open forum, that's surely monitored for buzz words?

I concur. For the first time since I've been on ATS a true intuitive alarm went off in my mind when I read his reply to twoturtles.

I would advise anyone participating on this thread to tread lightly & be mindful of the wording of their comments regarding the Art Of War.

reply to post by TheOneElectric

Though your post may be lacking in its regard of numerous trends and possibilities, I think you have a scope of vision which can easily see that "the Future" will not be coming into existence based upon traditional dreams of American values.
Machine intelligence, cloning, genetically modified humans are just a few of the present trends that will alter unimaginably the flow of human existence. Todays weapons will soon all be muskets.

Any number of developing technologies can and will combine in ways so complex that even the sharpest of us will fall back from predictions with our mouths hanging slackly in our awe of where we are truly headed. Trying to force a future based on just the Constitution and a semi automatic is not so much short sighted as is just plain blindness.

I stared your post because even though the op presents a very valid understanding of what is and what is not good for us at this point in time, it was your post which to my mind moved the thread in a direction of focusing on the real issues we as a race are facing.

This time is bottle neck time.

Originally posted by TheOneElectric
[People seeing what I described as a nightmare]

I'll just be simple and pleb tier in this post since abstract future talk is difficult for some.

It ends in humanity changed to live at amazing lengths, to never need again, and to look towards space as the next frontier. I'll admit, it's a coin toss, but one I'm willing to make.

No, this has nothing to do with 15 iPhones. That was idiotic. This has to do with the first portion of Psalm 23:2. This isn't about laziness or not wanting to work. This is about freeing humanity to do great things and to create a legacy amongst the stars.

If you were to truly look at humanity today, and the state that its in...you could almost taste what hell truly is. We are ALMOST out of the woods. Why the hell would I want to jeopardize that?

Seriously, if you had to choose between. This same Consumerist # and a Future 10x better than Star Trek...which one would you gamble it all on?

1) I don't totally disagree with you on some levels...I don't like zombified consumerism that reduces human potential to that of a slug...I too aspire for the stars...hell my head is up in outer-space 99% of the time...so much so that If I were to physically go I think it would feel familiar.

2) I disagree with the sacrifice. I disagree with the people/systems/governments you would have to support NOW to pull off this Star-Trek Future...

3) What I see: I see a world that has been kept from the most amazing technological achievements for the past 50 years...to the degree of being nearly 20 years behind. I see the same corrupt psychopaths that invested in these techs to consolidate ownership of these techs using them as a proverbial carrot on the stick to garner support of their position in the world as "GODS"....and by your post I see that would work very well.

I'm not against going to the stars brother....I'm against going to the stars at any and all costs.

@OP...well I tend to agree...civilians with weapons would seem to be no match for well trained and organised opposition with the latest military hardware...Kind of a no brainier.

However if the system collapses over night...I mean a total economic collapse.. and if martial law is introduced...it's highly likely that large cracks would happen within the military and many soldiers would simply join the resistance...as is happening in Syria..etc. This is the real civil war scenario..as in the last time a civil war happened in the states..it wasn't civilians against the army..it was two armies against each other. .In this case it makes sense to have firearms...but the idea of American civilians verses the military is laughable, but that would never happen..that only ever happens when guerilla armies have to face invading forces....But as I said the American military in a martial law scenario would not be an invading force...

reply to post by sajuek

I see this posted a lot, and I'm completely baffled as well as bemused by the shortsightedness of members who claim that the "Free Peoples of the USA" could win an armed conflict against the US government gone full tyrant mode.

Firstly, the British colonists alive before the American Revolution were asking many of the same questions. The English army was, by all standards of the day, the finest army on the planet and their navy had claimed the seas as their own. It really was a silly adventure.

As for the here and now?

I am constantly amazed by those who try and plan for the end of things... creating a survivor's mentality and stocking on things to somehow get beyond that moment when everything we know know, were to come to an end. In both cases... survival and/or civil insurrection, the main board would look the same.

First, no more electricity meaning, no TV, no refrigerator, no washer, no dryer, no air conditioning. The loss of power will lead to other things like, no running water, no drug stores... and within 72 hours, every grocery store and Walmart will have been picked clean. (For recent reference, check out New Orleans following Katrina.)

The stuff you stock will have a life of a few months at most. Especially potable water... which means no bathing and no clean clothes. Every drop will be for drinking. Even the stuff you cook with will be recycled. (See post-war Germany)

And s[peaking of clothes, your dirty rags will de-thread pretty quickly. Shoes will be a killing item and socks will become a luxury of the past. (See US Civil War)

There will be roving bands of armed citizens who won't be fighting for anything but their survival and taking what you have, at the cost of your life, will be their mission. Allowing your children out into the sunlight will be dangerous as these types will be ready to take them and either hold them hostage for what they want, or cook them over an open fire. (See Bosnian War)

Personally, we have stocked supplies to last... roughly, six weeks. After that, we know that unless there is relief, our chances becomes less than that of a neighborhood squirrel avoiding a barbecue grill.

Should the worst case come to pass, then so many plans for post-insanity survival are more talking points than reality. Our government is indeed run amok but... let's hope we can fix it the way the founding fathers had in mind... before we find ourselves following the same last-choice path they did.

reply to post by Sly1one


Problem is, the establish system is breaking down on it's own. Trust me when I say it's not a carrot leading me into a "hopeful" option. I'm telling you that greed will end up expletive(ing) the pigs with their own tools. Greed is not a snake that can be charmed. It has consequences beyond a world at constant war, poverty, inequality, and hellish conditions that don't touch the elite. Greed will come back to bite them when everything is invested in the machines to create rather than have humans create. No more jobs, no more well fed and ignorant peasants. That "oh #" moment is going to hit faster than they can prepare for...and I promise there will be only one option left: No more inequality or hording of resources. We'll be freed by a mistake of power. Man cannot control his own greed and thus greed will end up consuming the system of perpetual greed and inequality due to its all devouring nature.

Once the system is down, the machine based infrastructure stands, the quantum computer technology exists, and the medical technology that will blow your mind is distributed...we'll realize that there is no going back to all of that awful stuff that we buy into today. We'll be free...for the first time. We'll truly be free and able to look up into the night sky and truly reach.

Yes, I'm willing to bet it all. The alternative is simply unacceptable. Any such war that could occur now, would be dangerous and would create a set back and establish "excuses" for the elite. Let their house fall in upon itself rather than throwing rocks that can be argued to have caused the collapse.

The future is going to be....(next post)

Originally posted by TerryMcGuire
reply to post by TheOneElectric

 

Though your post may be lacking in its regard of numerous trends and possibilities, I think you have a scope of vision which can easily see that "the Future" will not be coming into existence based upon traditional dreams of American values.
Machine intelligence, cloning, genetically modified humans are just a few of the present trends that will alter unimaginably the flow of human existence. Todays weapons will soon all be muskets.

Any number of developing technologies can and will combine in ways so complex that even the sharpest of us will fall back from predictions with our mouths hanging slackly in our awe of where we are truly headed. Trying to force a future based on just the Constitution and a semi automatic is not so much short sighted as is just plain blindness.

I stared your post because even though the op presents a very valid understanding of what is and what is not good for us at this point in time, it was your post which to my mind moved the thread in a direction of focusing on the real issues we as a race are facing.

This time is bottle neck time.

...wild
Like McGuire said...even my crazy predictions will look childish and limited in 20 years time. You all have no clue what awaits you. We're so damn close to something great. Holding on to the constitution...wait for it
WAIT FOR IT
Holding on to the Constitution is a damned mistake.

IT sets guidelines and general restraints upon the leviathan that was created due to the failures of loose confederacies. Were it establishes and then restrains the leviathan, it leaves holes, that are filled by statues, treaties, common law, ordinances, treatises and whatever else that doesn't contradict it's basic principles. However, it is still limited as all hell in its scope of what could be. Already, the constitution is outdated when it comes to property interests, privacy, and copyright. Just imagine in the future when you're dealing with your right to personal copyright of your own genetic code and your precious constitution isn't there to help fill that hole because it just didn't cover it...and some backwards judges happen to have corporate payouts that allows big money to own what makes you YOU.

The concepts of old are going limited. We need to build upon them, and we need to realize that crying about pea shooters and "muh freedoms" is backwards monkey talk. We face a serious set of problems in the coming future that could result in Utopia if we let it...and could end up in the opposite direction if we agitate things based upon "tradition" and limited foresight.

But to answer the OPs question, which I never did: Americans have no concept of a future that doesn't look exactly as the present does.

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by sajuek

 

All in all, for the most part, it's loud mouthed morons that have self marginalized themselves because for whatever reason, they can't seem to live by the same laws that everyone else seems to be quite fine and okay with.

So tell me what do you propose when the elected officials no matter how you vote do everything the banks and big corporations want and keep ignoring the people? Vote some more?!? Protest? Masturbation is all it is.

The only way to compete on a world market with China is to lower the wages of our workforce to unlivable standards. They are driving us to this.

You said something about morons earlier in your post. You think its sane to keep voting like we have these past 50 years and keep expecting a different result? WTF you don't smell the way the energy is shifting worldwide? Where do you think this is all leading?

Why are so many so damn deaf dumb and blind? No matter how you feel the S@#$ will hit the fan. This time its worldwide, like domino's everything will change.

Originally posted by TheOneElectric
If you were to truly look at humanity today, and the state that its in...you could almost taste what hell truly is. We are ALMOST out of the woods. Why the hell would I want to jeopardize that?

Seriously, if you had to choose between. This same Consumerist # and a Future 10x better than Star Trek...which one would you gamble it all on?

I don't understand how we can almost be out of the woods in this state??

Why would we set up the future Star Trek system off of the failures of the current one?

We need to abolish States like China, Russia and the US before we ever dream of any future state involving technology. Why? Because of their actions. They are subversive, deceptive.

Those lack of morals need to die before we ever use science to it's fullest potential.
That starts with the quick implosion of this culture of decay.

The problem here, OP, is that your whole argument is based around the idea that this conflict would be a civil war. It won't be. It will be an insurgency. Air superiority? What are you expecting, the government to drop jdams on residential areas because suspected insurgents live there? You're forgetting the whole psychological and public relations factors in an armed conflict. The moment the US government becomes the tyrant dropping bombs on homes to kill a 'terrorist', they've lost. Your ideas about irradiation and chemical warfare are simply fantasy. It would be more likely that the insurgents would use those tactics. The only possible way for that to happen would be in the case of a false flag event being blamed on the insurgents. Sure, your fictional "Bubba and his bowling buddies" are not a militia, but you're forgetting that the entire people are the militia. Even so, if only 3% of the US acted, do you know how many people that would be? 9 million people. There are 1,477,896 active and 1,458,500 reserve personal in the US Armed Forces, and 1.8 million civilians employed by the Federal government.

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
reply to post by SSFlorida

 

I was watching "best Defense" the other day on Comcast,on the Outdoor channel,yes they do sell guns and ammo on Comcast.

They may have had a contract not expired:

detroit.cbslocal.com...

Originally posted by Druscilla



I would indeed enjoy communism. An altruistic Socialist meritocracy would be nice too.
I'm not talking National Communism, but, community based collectives.
I, in fact, contribute to such in purchase of goods at farmer's markets and other points of sales where products and goods are sold by small community collectives on a semi-regular basis.
Communism, despite what you might want to think about it, is alive in America. It's just not as popular or feasible as some would think. Due many the self entitled egocentric spoiled little princess militantly selfish demands of the self marginalizing disenfranchised, however, if a civil war were to break out, many communities would actually evolve their own collectives as means of coping with the crisis and interruption of civilized trade.

Additionally, exactly who do you think you'd be fighting against in a civil war? Guys in suits?
You'd be a fool to think that you wouldn't be fighting against the American military, at least in part.
That's what civil war IS.
Thus, the very term Civil War and the fomenting of support of it goes hand in hand with the willful premeditated murder of American servicemen and women.
It's killing your own countrymen and countrywomen.
Civil War would be American vs. American.

The revolutionary war against the British? That wasn't civil war.
You may want to revisit your history.
Thus, rave on foaming at the mouth all you want about whatever twisted idealisms and pipe dream revolutions gallop around one's simple little head in dreaming nights.

Have fun with all that.
How'd all the hoping and dreaming work out for you regarding the 2012 apocalypse by the way?

edit on 24-2-2013 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)

I know a war against the government isn't a "civil" war, that's why I alluded to the revolutionary war. And I never subscribed to the 2012 theory for anything more then a few laughs.

Do you really think current government entities are on the level? This administration is even worse then the last in every single manner, and other world governments aren't too different. This isn't about just the second amendment or left vs right anymore. It's about 99% of the world standing up to the manipulative 1%.

Other then that, I commend your purchasing habits.

reply to post by Druscilla


You should let the protection of your rights be done by people who are determined to be free . Our Government does not wan to use WMD'sbecause it would ruin America for them also . As long as they fear that we could go to war they are held at bay just like Russia .

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by sajuek

 

All in all, for the most part, it's loud mouthed morons that have self marginalized themselves because for whatever reason, they can't seem to live by the same laws that everyone else seems to be quite fine and okay with.

So tell me what do you propose when the elected officials no matter how you vote do everything the banks and big corporations want and keep ignoring the people? Vote some more?!? Protest? Masturbation is all it is.

The only way to compete on a world market with China is to lower the wages of our workforce to unlivable standards. They are driving us to this.

You said something about morons earlier in your post. You think its sane to keep voting like we have these past 50 years and keep expecting a different result? WTF you don't smell the way the energy is shifting worldwide? Where do you think this is all leading?

Why are so many so damn deaf dumb and blind? No matter how you feel the S@#$ will hit the fan. This time its worldwide, like domino's everything will change.

It doesn't care. As it said, it will steal a boat, sail it with the power of pretense and find a new government that will take care of it.

why do you assume you need to fight to take over the government

Once you destabilize the government, the military will be just one of many other problems.
you will have to fight against drug cartels, gangs, organized crime
every city will become a ghetto with no rule of law
every woman will be considered lucky if she is not raped
once, and if, the government goes down, the real battle would be to take the land
from the gangs and "lords"
If a civil war or revolution comes to pass, the USA will never go back to it's former glory
This is not the colonial america before the civil war
People will not unite and fight for a common ideal
you will end up creating another africa

if you want change, work within the system
educate the masses
are you afraid of corporations? name any corporation that will not bankrupt within weeks if everyone boycott its products
you might say well it's impossible for the sheeple to get on board for a meaningful effect
it will be hard but not as hard as getting the sheeple to behave and support you in a revolution

reply to post by quietlearner


Have you ever heard of Agenda 21 and ICLEI ? All the talking and voting has been over since JFK . From then on nobody has opposed the NWO . Those troops that are going to be bringing Communism to us are UN troops.The carnage that is about to happen is going to come from Homeland Security violating your Constitution and Bill of Rights . The driving force behind the whole thing is the group who are following the Protocols of Learned Elders of Zion that supposed fraud . Venture past the claims that they are a fraud and actually read into them . You will soon find that they are not a fraud and the people claiming they are are following them to the letter . You will not be flattered by the way they degrade you .

Call me a useless eater to my face I dare ya!
The UN couldn't fight it's way out for lunch.
Chinese troops? Too small.
Everyone else?Too few.
Only Americans can take America without WMDs.
They really don't want to try this.

reply to post by SimonPeter


If the NWO folks are real, then how will you stop them from regaining power once america is in chaos?
I'm on board with what TheOneElectric said earlier
let things run it's course, technology will normalize everything
a peculiar thing about technology is that it increases the individual power compared to groups
akin to how a gun would allow one person to beat a group or how internet allows one person to reach thousands
the current model of power is not sustainable and will collapse on itself
what we should be worrying about it to set things up so that the transition will be quick and painless

if there are sinister forces working in the shadows
that is another reason to not start a war
the chaos will be a perfect opportunity for those groups to strengthen their presence