Why are Americans deluded into thinking they could win a civil war?

The Viet Cong won their war against the mighty USA...with guerrilla tactics and a handful of rice a day.
When the Civil War does come US Citizens will be fighting for God, Country and Family.. which is more powerful then the Government fighting for Power and Money.

I guess we are deluded into it so that Federal sympathizers and other neo-fascist folks have yet something else to bemoan us for, as if we don't hear it enough on other fronts. One day folks are yelling at Americans because of the actions of the government and decrying us as totalitarian douchebags, the next we are being told we should love our government and never reist its unending wisdom. Honestly would some of you even have something to talk about if the US vanished over night, would you have anything to say at all if it wasn't some snarky jab aimed at yanks or rednecks or amies or whatever else is the new hip derogatory term for americans? Thats all most of these threads are anymore; a pointless wankfest where people come to beat their chests and harvest fake ego bosting stars, way to dilute the site even further!

Originally posted by sajuek
reply to post by DAVID64

 

Because I'm a paid government shill putting domestic terrorists on a Government kill list.

reply to post by inverslyproportional

 

That's all fine and dandy, and I can see why it'd serve as a good way to waste time. But under those circumstances, simply pulling back and dealing with these annoyances from afar (Off shore, bases in the middle of the desert where it's impossible to hide from eyes in the sky) via predator drones, cruise missiles, AC-130's, Apaches etc would be preceisely what would happen.

Your just not trying or even thinking very hard about this stuff. There is a reason we dont use castles anymore, your not safe inside, your trapped, in the military they call it, cut off and surrounded. It is always a losing proposition, even if an outside force is coming to attempt to break the siege. No matter how well provisioned, there are only so many supplies, they will have to get supplies in, ok trucks or airlifts. Trucks are easy targets, airplanes are easier tagets.

There is more than enough military tech laying around that can be used by anyone, it isnt like active duty soldiers are the only people that can drive a tank, or fir e artillery etc... it isnt like folks will be unarmed and defenseless, not to mention there is too much for them to protect all the time, especially whike fielding so much man power for their campaign against the people. It happens in every civil war everywhere in the world, also entire miltary commands will follow the people not the politicians, entire divisions would turn on their masters, as always happens in every civil war in history.

The .gov is not some unassailable all powerful foe, they are just people, just like you and me. Some will follow orders, some wont, others will help the enemy from the inside, enemies will help them from the inside etc..

The difference is, the people will be fighting for eachother, TPTB will be fighting for power nothing more, they will even fight eachother over it before the end. And then once again the people will have peace again for a time, before this all plays out again, in some other land, to some other people, just kike it has always been, and probably always will be.

found the perfect uniform for every american citizen opposing the government ...

would make good TV

I want to be very clear about something, I am not a gun grabber, yes I think that some change to American gun legislation is needed but I support the American Second Amendment.

I also agree with the OP and the reason I mention the second amendment Is because in general most of the members who write posts and threads about the coming second American Civil war do so on the basis that they have a despot tyrannical government who is starting take their guns as part of some grand NWO plot against “patriotic Americans”. It’s a really pathetic conspiracy but many Americans believe that their government is plotting to harm them all in some way and taking their guns in the first step in this maleficent plot.

As such there is a minority of Americans who think that it is their patriotic duty to defend their “constitutional rights” by taking up arms. They are a manifestation of a mutant brand of liberalism that dictates an almost religious belief in absolute freedom which includes freedom from government. As such they see any further erosion of what they believe their “rights” to be by their government as an act of war against them, they have this absurd believe that these rights have been bestowed upon them by God. In other words they believe that it is their “God given right to own a gun” any attempt by government to encroach on this right is a direct attack against them and their freedom which they believe is not subject to the laws of man but the natural laws of man (very important difference). This results in a group that essentially believe in extreme anti-government ideology.

The result on ATS is what I call the “Rambo Threads”, these are the threads and posts where a member says something like “If they try to take our guns it is a sign of the NWO tyranny soon they will lock us up in FEMA Camps and destroy America so I (we) will shoot back”. What is worrying is how intertwined with conspiracy this ideology has become. Conspiracies I would argue are very dangerous things when taken to this extreme level. Hitler was a conspiracy theorists who believed the Jews were to blame for everything, Bin Laden was a conspiracy theorists who believed that the west with America at their head where trying to destroy Islam. History shows us very clearly the dangers of social conspiracy theories when taken to an extreme.

This is what we are starting to see happening now with domestic militia groups in America, the proliferation of conspiracy theories coupled with their mutant liberal ideology and current events of the last few years such as changes to gun legislation and economic austerity may lead to these groups believing that the Orwellian nightmare is upon them and will seek to strike out first. The result will probably be a large scale domestic terrorist attack form a group inside America such as the Oklahoma City bombing.

The difficulty is that when this happens it will only make things worse and could compound the problem. For example the Federal reserve is generally considered to be at the heart of this conspiracy so say a militia group attacks the treasury offices or another financial target. It will make things worse, there loads of militia groups in America if one of these groups takes say a large bank hostage the government will be forced to act. The result will be dead a bank full of dead anti-government militia and this will further radicalise other groups and be a massive propaganda tool for these groups.

The OP is correct in a full civil war between the militia’s and the government the government would win in a week. I would say however that it won’t be a war, I think in this decade we are going to see a increase in domestic attacks inside America rather than an all-out civil war. I wrote a thread on this recently about domestic terrorism and the new American Revolution and it got flamed, this thread will be no different. So good luck to the OP, you are going to be flamed by Rambo fantasists who think that them and their beer buddies would stand a chance against a fully equipped HRT team.

how many people are we talking about here ?

20 ?

belive it or not, 99.99999% of americans don't think a civil war is coing next tuesday

Originally posted by wingsfan

Arguing all points is always a good thing, but you always manage to get your little slanders in, don't you?

So because of your personal stand on guns, all opposing are of low IQ? I think you and your ilk would be very surprised.

And who the hell has EVER openly advocated for having to kill our troops? You just made that up right then and there. Hell most troops, though fighting misguided wars, would not adhere to your beliefs.

As for the rest.........

We don't care who steps in, we beat the best army in the world with little more then a bunch of patriotic farmers. And we never cowed down to any LAWS. You would of been one of those yelling against fighting the British. You think the government/s are your friend? You think they'd never go against your interests? You would love communism!

I would indeed enjoy communism. An altruistic Socialist meritocracy would be nice too.
I'm not talking National Communism, but, community based collectives.
I, in fact, contribute to such in purchase of goods at farmer's markets and other points of sales where products and goods are sold by small community collectives on a semi-regular basis.
Communism, despite what you might want to think about it, is alive in America. It's just not as popular or feasible as some would think. Due many the self entitled egocentric spoiled little princess militantly selfish demands of the self marginalizing disenfranchised, however, if a civil war were to break out, many communities would actually evolve their own collectives as means of coping with the crisis and interruption of civilized trade.

Additionally, exactly who do you think you'd be fighting against in a civil war? Guys in suits?
You'd be a fool to think that you wouldn't be fighting against the American military, at least in part.
That's what civil war IS.
Thus, the very term Civil War and the fomenting of support of it goes hand in hand with the willful premeditated murder of American servicemen and women.
It's killing your own countrymen and countrywomen.
Civil War would be American vs. American.

The revolutionary war against the British? That wasn't civil war.
You may want to revisit your history.
Thus, rave on foaming at the mouth all you want about whatever twisted idealisms and pipe dream revolutions gallop around one's simple little head in dreaming nights.

Have fun with all that.
How'd all the hoping and dreaming work out for you regarding the 2012 apocalypse by the way?

reply to post by syrinx high priest

how many people are we talking about here ?

20 ?

It’s that 20 that are the worry for me, the idea of a full on civil war is ridiculous the idea of a few domestic terrorist attacks not so much.

Its only a matter of time before a militia of say 20 fanatical “libertarians” with a conspiracy theorists paranoia walk into a large bank or the offices of a federal building to take some hostages. Such a move could radicalise other militias.

How long is it going to take until these groups join up and turn into a American version of the IRA.

reply to post by sajuek


Stop paying taxes
and the Government will stop
soon enough.

Originally posted by Druscilla


Additionally, exactly who do you think you'd be fighting against in a civil war? Guys in suits?
You'd be a fool to think that you wouldn't be fighting against the American military, at least in part.
That's what civil war IS.
Thus, the very term Civil War and the fomenting of support of it goes hand in hand with the willful premeditated murder of American servicemen and women.
It's killing your own countrymen and countrywomen.
Civil War would be American vs. American.

The revolutionary war against the British? That wasn't civil war.
You may want to revisit your history.
Thus, rave on foaming at the mouth all you want about whatever twisted idealisms and pipe dream revolutions gallop around one's simple little head in dreaming nights.

I'll dovetail on that...

there are 3 different scanarios commonly discussed, but in my opinion confused about on ATS

organized US citizens VS US gov't = revolution

organized US citizens VS organized US citizens = civil war

chaotic randomly violent US citizens VS anyone in their way = typical ATS scenario discussed (anarchy)

most scenario's discussed here are revolution or anarchy

reply to post by syrinx high priest


I think you'll find if any single one of those things happened, the rest would all follow shortly.

reply to post by sajuek


you seem to forget that in during the soviet war in afghanistan, the mujahideen took on and out lasted one of the most hated and second most powerful military in the world. a power that had no problem wiping out any and all opposition to their goals. by using any and all means at their disposal, short of nukes, chemical, and biological weapons. but it should be noted, that there are rumors that the soviets used bio weapons in 1982 in some remote locations. see page five of this link with a former deputy director of their bio weapons programs.
the first question on the right side of the page.

BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS IN THE FORMER SOVIET UNION: AN INTERVIEW WITH DR. KENNETH ALIBEK

now how did they do this, with billions of dollars of aid from not just the U.S. aid also came from Saudi Arabia, Britain's MI6 and SAS, Egypt, Iran, and the People's Republic of China, and Pakistan.

at that time i think it was safe to say that the USSR was considered to be the most hated nation in the world.
at least by nations that had some forms of freedom or that had potential to lose something to them.

judging by the considerable hate that is shown here on ATS for the U.S., there is no doubt in my mind that if a civil uprising was to happen here, there would be a never ending line forming to donate money, weapons, training, and probaly even troops to support the revolt.

i also believe that the U.S. would never use bio or chemical weapons because of the back lash that would come from the U.N. and would not dare losing the support that they may have there.

remember a sneaky pete can do a lot of damage, and just because your fat, doesn't mean you can't be sneaky.

and as far as under the age of 18, i think most would follow the example of their parents, no matter what kind of indoctrination, the government has tried to use on them. sure there would be some that would sidewith the government, but most children want and do love their parents. no matter how much they fuss and fight, and if they saw there folks killed, they would do any and everything with in their power to resist the government.

i will never forget what my drill instructor said to us at Paris Island, you will be amazed at what a 17 year old can do with a M-16.

Originally posted by hounddoghowlie
reply to post by sajuek

 

you seem to forget that in during the soviet war in afghanistan, the mujahideen took on and out lasted one of the most hated and second most powerful military in the world. a power that had no problem wiping out any and all opposition to their goals. by using any and all means at their disposal, short of nukes, chemical, and biological weapons. but it should be noted, that there are rumors that the soviets used bio weapons in 1982 in some remote locations. see page five of this link with a former deputy director of their bio weapons programs.
the first question on the right side of the page.

BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS IN THE FORMER SOVIET UNION: AN INTERVIEW WITH DR. KENNETH ALIBEK

now how did they do this, with billions of dollars of aid from not just the U.S. aid also came from Saudi Arabia, Britain's MI6 and SAS, Egypt, Iran, and the People's Republic of China, and Pakistan.

at that time i think it was safe to say that the USSR was considered to be the most hated nation in the world.
at least by nations that had some forms of freedom or that had potential to lose something to them.

judging by the considerable hate that is shown here on ATS for the U.S., there is no doubt in my mind that if a civil uprising was to happen here, there would be a never ending line forming to donate money, weapons, training, and probaly even troops to support the revolt.

i also believe that the U.S. would never use bio or chemical weapons because of the back lash that would come from the U.N. and would not dare losing the support that they may have there.

remember a sneaky pete can do a lot of damage, and just because your fat, doesn't mean you can't be sneaky.

and as far as under the age of 18, i think most would follow the example of their parents, no matter what kind of indoctrination, the government has tried to use on them. sure there would be some that would sidewith the government, but most children want and do love their parents. no matter how much they fuss and fight, and if they saw there folks killed, they would do any and everything with in their power to resist the government.

i will never forget what my drill instructor said to us at Paris Island, you will be amazed at what a 17 year old can do with a M-16.

edit on 24-2-2013 by hounddoghowlie because: (no reason given)

No country which hates the US has the global or logistical presence to supply rebels with any meaningful aid. Doing so would be a direct threat to US soverignity and a prelude to war which would be a death wish and unlike Afghan, the US is pretty isolated and getting in and out wouldn't be easy unspotted. Doubly so seeing as the US controls all the banks unlike Russia to the Afghans so there's no way they'd be getting any $$$ (not that it'd do them any good anyways).

Even if you allow 16 year olds and upwards in and chubbies it won't make any difference. It'd be easy for the US to use bio weapons and cover it up. People will only hear what they want to hear and if the UN wanted to believe that the US didn't use bio weapons and that it was a natural outbreak (as can happen to people living in squalid conditions) they most certainly would.

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by sajuek

 

I'ts moronic drivel from people that have more guns than they have IQ points.

The same people will argue about all our soldiers getting killed in [insert name of foreign country here], but they want to have these same soldiers lined up in their crosshairs?

Any civil war on American soil would also result in a number of opportunist nations stepping in to "help".
Many a faction would even willfully invite said "help"; entirely ignorant of the cost such "help" would result in.

All in all, for the most part, it's loud mouthed morons that have self marginalized themselves because for whatever reason, they can't seem to live by the same laws that everyone else seems to be quite fine and okay with.

edit on 24-2-2013 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)

Funny you mention IQ points since I am pretty sure I dropped several reading your post

If history is to be our guide, I would suggest that the evidence factor lies with those who do believe the population could fight and defeat the US Military.

Let us start with very very recent history...

Afghanistan. We have been there for over 10 years. They are out gunned , out financed, we have superior technology, weapons and surveillance..... and yet the mighty US Military has been unable to stop the resistance there.

Iraq. Again much the same situation as I mentioned above. We destroyed their military within days, so who were we fighting for years? The population. How well was that working out for us again?

It seems at this point in time with everything that has been waged against the american people, it will only take a spark to ignite the patriotism of the people, just as it did 911
except the focus this time will be to gut the tyrants like the french did when they had all they were having.

Its not about millions of armed citizens pushing a war of liberty in the streets, its about one man with the correct design of assault with exact precision at the right moment.

The firstess with the mostess wins every time and there's no way the government could ever thwart what they have no clue as to?

All it takes is one sleeper secret service agent correctly placed at the opportune moment when key players are all together, then execute.....the powers that be would simply be powerless, and the joint chiefs would side with the constitution and all would be quickly back to normal

The power will always be on the side of the people, not the government, especially now while every ones focused and no longer under their propaganda spell

reply to post by sajuek


As was mentioned by others, you are talking about a Scorched Earth policy to be used to combat an insurrection on home soil. Yes there was Sherman's March to the Sea (which happened in a foreign country), the Indian Wars (which happened to a foreign people)...we could give many other examples but consider that there were no internment camps for those of German decent during WWII nor were there massive raids on Union farms by Union soldiers (nor vice versa for the Confederates) during the Civil War. Keep in mind that atrocities conducted during the Civil War and the Reconstruction Era still have a lasting impact on the people today. You are aware that Vicksburg, Mississippi did not celebrate the Fourth of July for a few years after the war?

A No Holds Barred campaign by the US Government would only result in a total "victory" on the battlefield, but not a single elected or appointed official nor their families would ever be considered "safe" again. Effectively there would make themselves permanent POW's due to the amount of protection they would need. And yet would still worry if their security detail would just kill them anyways. And it would be doubtful if the defeated rebels would ever be productive members of society again.

Actually the only way for the US to "win", would be to let those that want to secede to leave freely, fail economically and accept them back to the US when they petition to rejoin.

Originally posted by MrWendal

Funny you mention IQ points since I am pretty sure I dropped several reading your post

If history is to be our guide, I would suggest that the evidence factor lies with those who do believe the population could fight and defeat the US Military.

Let us start with very very recent history...

Afghanistan. We have been there for over 10 years. They are out gunned , out financed, we have superior technology, weapons and surveillance..... and yet the mighty US Military has been unable to stop the resistance there.

Iraq. Again much the same situation as I mentioned above. We destroyed their military within days, so who were we fighting for years? The population. How well was that working out for us again?

... oh certainly asymmetrical tactical resistance has it's benefits.
Keep in mind, again, however, we're talking about Americans killing Americans.

Additionally, have you seen what the cities in these recent deployments look like?
Where the urban areas were sparkling clean, organized, well tended, functional and safe for the general citizenry while oppressive regimes were in place, the cities now are ghettos with trash piled up in the streets, very little by way of electricity whenever it's on, petty warlords and gangs filling power vacuums, spotty running water, spotty general citizen security, entirely corrupt self-serving local governments, and basic squalor everywhere.

Thus, go ahead.
Have your asymmetrical killing spree.
You'll turn our cities into ghettos run by self serving corrupt local officials, gangs and warlords no longer held to higher accountability.
Utilities services will fail.
Local economies will collapse.
Goods and services will become scarce without the National infrastructure of trade routes working in concert with International ports of call.
And much much more.

Person on person crimes and crimes against property will become more commonplace without the free uninterrupted services of police to keep the more unsavory elements of society in check.
Rising crime will turn average citizens toward patronage of any local warlord or gang that can deliver even a semblance of order.

Essentially, everything will collapse into squalid anarchy while opportunists like fighting dogs will slaver over any and every little bits and tatters of the former order they can requisition for their own personal selfish gains without fear of accountability or repercussion.

Murder, rape and theft will run rampant.

Sure. Go ahead.
I'll take the opportunity to steal a fairly reasonably kitted out sailboat, kit it out further, and be on my way somewhere else where civilization still respects civilization.

Originally posted by RocksFromSpace
The Viet Cong won their war against the mighty USA...with guerrilla tactics and a handful of rice a day.
When the Civil War does come US Citizens will be fighting for God, Country and Family.. which is more powerful then the Government fighting for Power and Money.

2X. The oath keepers, NRA members and just PO'ed people will fight and I can't see our military people fighting against us. They won't use bio because it would also affect them too. They won't start a fight they know they can't win. And as far as being over weight.... it doesn't take a fit person to pull a trigger...

My great grandfather fought in the civil war, my grandfather fought in WW1, my father fought in WW2, my uncles fought in Korea and I fought in Nam. I'm sure a lot of families have that background. Do you really think we would stop fighting now when it's on our own land for our own freedom? Think again.

The pilgrim fathers fled Britain because they wanted a country in which everyone subscribed to their own specific, extreme, religious values, and objected to the fact that 99.9% of people in Britain disagreed with them.

Perhaps no surprise then, that even today, some Americans want to impose their values on everyone else, and would instigate civil war if the majority disagree.

But if course it' never happen. Extreme religious & political freedom? Or the latest iPad? No contest ......

Originally posted by sajuek

Originally posted by hounddoghowlie
reply to post by sajuek

 

No country which hates the US has the global or logistical presence to supply rebels with any meaningful aid. Doing so would be a direct threat to US soverignity and a prelude to war which would be a death wish and unlike Afghan, the US is pretty isolated and getting in and out wouldn't be easy unspotted. Doubly so seeing as the US controls all the banks unlike Russia to the Afghans so there's no way they'd be getting any $$$ (not that it'd do them any good anyways).

Even if you allow 16 year olds and upwards in and chubbies it won't make any difference. It'd be easy for the US to use bio weapons and cover it up. People will only hear what they want to hear and if the UN wanted to believe that the US didn't use bio weapons and that it was a natural outbreak (as can happen to people living in squalid conditions) they most certainly would.

first the U.S. has quite large borders, along canada and mexico, if they cant stop drugs and illegals from coming in, what makes you think they can stop arms and other goods from coming in. china has the largest shipping fleet in the world, it is also thought they have subs that can move undetected by our best equipment.
don't you remember the chinese sub that popped up in the middle of the U.S. navy's war games undetected

russia could fly right around the coast from siberia, and make drops of weapons, or sail around in ships or subs.

then there could be the use of drug runners, and their routes.

second we have three large coast lines, there is no way they could deploy enough, ships, aircraft, equipment and manpower to guard the boarders and coastlines, fight a civil war and go to war in some where else. they could never get enough manpower to do all three at the same time. even with all the high tech surveillance. they would be spread to thin.

and if you think the power base for the banks is in the states, i'm afraid your mistaken. eight of the largest banks in the world and the power behind the banks are based in europe china and japan. there just two in the U.S.
here's a link.
Top Ten Largest Banks

and the U.S. wouldn't want to kill people in areas that were still loyal to the government, if they did deploy bio weapons they would provide vaccines and antidotes for those still loyal, the resistance would ambush the supply line for above mentioned antidotes and there would be aid from other countries who probably already know what bio weapons we have and have antidote and vaccines available. and would include them in the aid given.