The Varieties of ATS Religious Experience; or, Variations on a Theme

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I actually support the Trinity. It means more to me than many Christians today actually understand.

I haven't really thought about the Trinity much since I'm openly polytheist.

I actually think that the creator no longer exists as a separate being, because He/She gave His life (poured Himself out) so that there could be a universe. That's pretty much my belief in Creator/Creation relationship. The life we have is the same life that was poured out. I don't know enough about quantum physics to explain it in any more detail than that.

My religious beliefs are kind of out of the ordinary. I was raised in a very devout Southern Baptist family, my father was a deacon and my mothers dad was a preacher. We went to church every Sunday for Sunday School followed by Sunday worship service and then back again for the evening service, then we would be back again for Wednesday service.

The entire time at church I would have the same feeling I would have at school, feeling like I was being indoctrinated or instructed and to me it was miserable. When I was around 16 or 17 I learned about the apocryphal books of the bible so I read the entire KJV several times plus all the information I could get on the apocryphal books.

That's when things started clicking in my mind and I realized that the Bible had been edited numerous times and I realized that each time it was edited there was an agenda behind it and each time a portion of the word of God was omitted and replaced with the words of man. It was at this time that I stopped going to church, in fact my father was severely PO'd with me when I refused to go, saying I was rebelling against religion. He was right in a way, I was more refusing religion organized by men than I was rebelling against religion.

I began reading about various religions especially the religions of the far east, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Shinto, and Confucianism which all appealed to me due to the fact that they are much more based on spirituality than theology. During the same time I began researching the shamanistic religions of the Native Americans which then lead me to studying the druidic beliefs of the Celtic people.

By this time I was in the service at the start of the first gulf war and witnessed a lot of unsettling things and after a couple of years I went back to Christianity through a Chaplain that I had talked to about what I had experienced. I stayed a practicing Christian for about 5 years until it dawned on me that the largest majority of conflict in the world was due to religion and disputes between religious beliefs.

At that time I decided that organized religion, while it may work for others was not for me. I went back and reread a lot of the eastern religions and shamanistic Native American religions and eventually decided that the religious texts of the world have been so edited and rewritten through the years that I couldn't trust what was written in the texts as being the true word.

Since then I have adopted a quasi-shamanistic/druidism belief with some aspects of Christianity, mainly the creation beliefs of Christianity. I believe that there is an omnipotent god that created the universe and set it all into motion then set back and watched. Call it God, Allah, Shiva, Jesus, Mother Earth, The Great Spirit, or what ever you like, to me they are all the same being.

The Taoistic/Shamanistic/Druidic idea of all beings being bound to each other through our spiritual journey along the physical realm makes the most sense to me. We are all spiritual beings of light and we have all chosen to take the journey we are on and have to interact with other beings while on the path that we have chosen. I respect all other religions and will always agree that a persons religion is the best choice for them since that is the path that person has chosen, and religion being a personal and spiritual relationship with a persons beliefs and only each individual person can decide which path is best for them.

reply to post by Nucleardiver

Thanks for your contribution here! It resonates with mine in terms of studying other religious and spiritual traditions. My "faith and religion" bookshelf includes ancient mythology, Celtic shamanism, Native American myths, legends, practices, Wiccan/neo-pagan practice, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the KJV Bible, several scholarly works on the "History of [Abrahamic] God" (but also includes some Eastern ideas as well - physics applied to religiosity, Sufi works, Taoist and Buddhist and Confucianism, etc., New Age spirituality, and others. I hear ya, bro. I wasn't Southern Baptist, but (as happened for many of us) when I reached the "age" of being able to "refuse" to go (16), I did.

Journey commenced. Hasn't stopped yet.

reply to post by pthena

THANKS for your post, pthena! I don't like to "shamelessly" bump the thread, I actually hope it will one day be useful as a sort of "index" for members' reference if they get involved in discussions with others and want to know their "story" so as to understand them better. Or even lurkers, if they want to know a bit more about someone's "path" that brought them here.

reply to post by AfterInfinity
You do? Hmmm. I must say, Aft, that you are one of the members I find most fascinating, yet I really don't have a "handle" on what you do and don't believe. And you can't say I haven't tried!!

It is my privilege and honor to have permission from member TheEthicalSkeptic to link his "story" from a thread he very recently started.
The Breakthrough Which Freed Me from Abrahamic Religious Enslavement

The OP is his story, well articulated.

reply to post by wildtimes

You do? Hmmm. I must say, Aft, that you are one of the members I find most fascinating, yet I really don't have a "handle" on what you do and don't believe. And you can't say I haven't tried!!

Probably because I'm not "black and white". I borrow a little from almost everything.

reply to post by pthena

I haven't really thought about the Trinity much since I'm openly polytheist.

I actually think that the creator no longer exists as a separate being, because He/She gave His life (poured Himself out) so that there could be a universe. That's pretty much my belief in Creator/Creation relationship. The life we have is the same life that was poured out. I don't know enough about quantum physics to explain it in any more detail than that.

I very respectfully disagree. I feel that Source (my best label for what some would call a creator or others an event) translated into what we see today. You remember the law of conservation of energy? What does wood do when it burns? What does mist do when it gets cold? What does flesh do when it decays, or sand and limestone do when they melt?

They translate.

Energy and matter is never destroyed or created. It simply changes form, structure, definition. It translates from one nature to another, always fostered in some way by the material from which it was translated and alsways possessing the seed of what it may yet translate into. Law of One teaches that energy became self-aware on a minute level and expanded, dividing in a similar fashion to cells creating a baby. And as the more basic properties were then exercised, the process become more and more complicated as more and more possibilities were exercised...eventually creating reality as it is today. Every layer is a translation of the one above and below, using the same syntax but different materials or "languages". If you were completely oblivious to any language but your own and came across some scribbles from another world, what would you think of it?

This is how we perceive other "languages" or translations of this reality. We don't know what to make of it, we don't know where it comes from, or even if it means anything because we have no reasons to suspect it should. However, we are beginning to see patterns and significance that indicates a complexity never before realized in this reality, and this is possibly the first step to understanding further translations of this universe.

A lot like this:

reply to post by AfterInfinity

They translate

That's why I freely admit that I lack the quantum physics or even physics past 101. To me Translate seems like Poured Out, which sounds like "The Creator no longer exists as a distinct conscious entity standing apart from the universe".

Law of One

Are you referring to what I see if I google that or look in wikipedia The Law of One. I don't think I've read anything about such things.

the process become more and more complicated as more and more possibilities were exercised...eventually creating reality as it is today.

I'm a heathen so that sounds to me like Eros interacting with Chaos to bring definition. That sounds right to me.

However, we are beginning to see patterns and significance that indicates a complexity never before realized in this reality, and this is possibly the first step to understanding further translations of this universe.

Are this statement and the graphic based on physics or quantum physics? I might have to defer to experts on such matters.

I wish I could spend more time on this right now, but I've got the granddaughter today and my computer time will be hit or miss.

It has come to my attention that another member has posted a similar thread to this one.
For more stories that are not contained here, go to www.abovetopsecret.com...

At the petition of Wild, which came due to my interactions on another one of her threads, I will share my brief life story; specifically, the role mysticism, theism, and religion has had in my life and where I stand with it today.

My story actually starts a few years before I was born when my father, followed by my mother, converted to Christianity (Baptist) in their early twenties. Both of my parents were raised in and influenced by Catholicism, but my father more than my mother. At the time that my father prayed for salvation through the atoning blood-sacrifice of Jesus Christ, he was a heavy drinker and struggling with several other habits he reckoned as both evil and out of his control.

My birth, two years after the conversion of my parents, brought me into a home that had already been taken over by the strict interpretation of scripture by a particular brand of Fundamental Baptist apologetic and by the time I was five, I too asked Jesus to save me from my sins; or so I thought.

This camp of Protestants believed in, among other things, predestination, dispensationalism, presuppositonal transcendentalism, and separation. As a result of adopting the totality of the churches teachings my parents saw fit to keep me enrolled in the Christian school affiliated with the church of their attendance, for the totality of my education even up to university.

I was raised without rock music (even “Christian rock”), movies, questionable television and video games. I didn't have, nor was allowed to go to a single sleep-over until I was in high school. “Darn”, “crap”, and “heck” were swear words. As a matter of fact, a church-wide boycott of Starbucks took effect one year because the slogan on their cup was, “Darn good coffee”. I was not allowed to date until after high school, or wear shorts that went higher than my knee. I was not allowed to go to the beach or pools and in my adolescent years I was not allowed to go anywhere that was deemed “worldly” (amusement parks, sports games, etc) without an adult chaperone. But enough of the separation.

When I hit my teens I began to realize there was a disparity between what I felt in my heart and what many others around me professed regarding the state of their regeneration. So, when the attraction to the opposite gender, rock music, and “worldly” amusements began to weigh on my conscience, I decided that perhaps, I wasn't saved after all. I asked for salvation again when I was fifteen. I was passionate and vocal about my choice and wanted everyone to know I was turning over a new leaf and holding nothing back from God. But again, much to my dismay, the euphoria wore off and I was left feeling scammed. What did all these others have that I didn't? Why would God trick me like this; not just once when I was little and perhaps to ignorant to know what I was even asking for, but twice? I wanted salvation. I wanted it to be true. But I felt nothing. I felt the same. There was no one there when I needed help; no magic power to help me with temptations. Why?

It was shortly before leaving high school and heading to the approved christian university, that the charlatanry and magic began to wear off. I would sit in daily Bible class, daily chapel, Sunday school, Sunday morning service, Sunday evening service, Wednesday night service, special revival meetings and think to myself, “This makes no sense. If all this as been revealed in a self-evidential way, why do these men spend their who lives in seminary trying to figure out what this book and this world is really trying to tell us about God? Why is there so much confusion in my mind about what are supposed to be obvious truths?” I think the trait of Christianity I found the most grotesque was its flagrant disparagement of reason. Through the obvious misology of Christianity and the Bible, it is clear that it is fundamentally antithetical to reason. Reason being man's only agency of knowledge and his only vade mecum to action, meant that for me, although I could only roughly outline the issues I saw, it was never-the-less becoming ostensive that Christianity was also, unquestionably against man; for it places belief in that which is unknowable as a dictate of morality. But it is not morality by choice. It is morality by ultimatum, bribery, and blackmail.

Needless to say, I became incorrigible in my theology, debate, hermeneutics, and logic classes and soon caught the attention of all the church and school officials and not in a good way. I did manage to keep my scepticism to a dull enough roar so that I was able to graduate high school and head off to Bob Jones.

I lasted there two semesters and four weeks before I left and ran as far away as I could manage considering I had almost zero contacts with essentially the entire world.

(cont.)

reply to post by Philodemus


I spent the 5 years after leaving university in a free-float state not really thinking much about the way out of the dark. I was quite lost and was convinced that god had it out for me. I spent 2 years hitchhiking across the country and basically living as a homeless youth. I introduced myself to a few eastern religions and even explored Islam and Judaism while living in California. It was at some point during this time my life really bottomed out and I decided to focus all my attention on learning the side of the story I was never taught. The side of the story I am speaking of, is one that does not start with the assumption of the supernatural. The next five years, or so, were spent in agnosticism and the last five I have spent honing implicit atheism into its explicit form; a move that can only be expected if one keeps strict emphasis on reason.

It has been a long road to self-discovery since those days, and the journey has not been an easy one. It has also been highly rewarding. The immoderate conditions in which I was raised left me with an intense curiosity to discover other religions and schools of thought. “Losing” one's salvation is heartbreaking but with every step away from mysticism I took, I felt better and better. There is an enormous weight lifted off of my shoulders now and I feel as though I am thinking clearly and beginning to live my life as a man.

The difficulty for me was and is, restructuring my thought process, ethics and morality in a normative and objective way. It was rather shocking to see just how deep the subjectivity went. I couldn't believe how destructive the whole metaphysical system was to an epistemology proper to man qua man. It is because I have received such an undeniable deliverance from a line of thinking that is inappropriate for man's epistemic needs, that I feel drawn to help others become disabused from their mistaken metaphysics and conceptual misdirections. That is not to say that atheism is any sort of guarantee to happiness, but I feel it has cleared the way and given me a clean slate. I can not help but open my mouth and do my part, even though I know that my part is clumsy and often inadequate.

Well, I guess that's it. Thank you, WildTimes, for the opportunity share my story.

In Humanity,
Daniel


P.S. Sorry I'm long winded....

reply to post by Philodemus

Wow! Beautifully done, and what a journey!! Thanks so much for taking the time to disclose your story.

I can not help but open my mouth and do my part, even though I know that my part is clumsy and often inadequate.

Well, there was CERTAINLY nothing "clumsy" or "inadequate" here, at all.
Thanks again.

I'll look forward to reading more of your thoughts.

I'm a long time ATS reader, a brand spanking new member, and I am completely fascinated by this thread. I have started writing my experience out, and will post it when completed, as it differs from what I have read and will hopefully add to and further the discussion.

reply to post by Thejaybird


Welcome to ATS!! Glad you've signed on, and I look forward to reading your story. Very pleased that you are enjoying the thread, too. I also think it's fascinating.
~wild

reply to post by pthena



Living in the Southwest and among Native Americans I followed the Shamanic path to my most profound Religious experiences. To discuss the methods would get me banned from ATS.

Here is the path I took in my youth.....

nativeamericanchurches.org...

My subsequent investigations have been very revealing to say the least.

I was born on a Sunday, and in a Souther Baptist church two weeks later. My parents were in the ministry, so if the doors were open, we were at church (even if we were out of town, we found a local church in that area to attend). I went to summer and winter church camps, state youth concentions, and attended every opportunity available that was provided by the church. I preached my first sermon on a "youth Sunday" at the age of fourteen (on predestination, no less!), and was teaching Sunday School while I was still in high school. After backdoor nonsense reared its ugly head (as it always seems to do), my parents left the ministry and decided to just be members. We had friends of the family who attended a charismatic church, so we ended up there. This was when I was first in college.

Unfortunately, our timing of the move to charismatic church coincided with that particular church embracing the Toronto Vineyard movement ("holy laughter" and the "blessing"), and I was skeptical of it from the get go. I met with the Pastors, voiced my concerns, and was told that I was a "troublemaker" who was out to "thwart the will of God", and that it would probably be best if I no longer attended the church. It was actually fine with me, as I had seen far too much of what I call the "religiosity of religion" in my life, and was ready for a break.

I was working in a Christian bookstore at the time, and was introduced to the writings of Frederick Buechner, who immediately resonated with me. You see, I had a lot of unanswered questions stemming from a lifetime of church attendance, Bible studies, and personal research, and he raised many of the issues that, until that time, had either remained in my head or couldn't be answered. Questions about grace, hell, what scripture means, et al, nd much of his writings made a lot of sense to me. I had an aquatance at the time who also liked Buechner, and she introduced me to Robert Farrar Capon, who went even steps further in a lot of the ideas that Buechner only scratched the surface (particulary the ideas of hell and judgment). Because of my lifelong indoctrination (I wish there was a better word to use here, but there isn't), much of what he wrote sounded "heretical" and "blasphemous", but resonated deeply in me. This all caused me to delve deeper into scripture, studying the Hebrew and Greek behind the translations, studying the writings of the earliest apologists, and generally digging in, attempting to "rightly divide the word of truth". You see, I have never had a "crisis of faith"; I believe the evidence that supports the Bible, both historically and archeologically, far outweigh any "proofs" that people who do not believe can provide (and yes, I have seen and/or heard them all). My "crisis", if you can call it that, was dealing with the idea that a God of love would create the majority of people to spend eternity in eternal torment. That idea never, ever, made sense to me, and I needed to see where such an idea originated. The quesions and ideas raised by both Buechner and Capon gave me the courage to move forward.

And what I found fascinated me, thrilled me, and changed not only my life, but how I veiw everything in the world. This didn't happen overnight; it began fifteen years ago, and continues to this day.

To make a long story short, I now believe in what is referred to as "ultimate reconciliation", and I fully believe that it is one hundred percent supported in and by the Bible, from Genesis to the maps. Because of this, I have been branded (by Christians, no less) as a heretic, an abomination, an blashemer of the Holy Spirit, and in my personal favorite, a "agent of Satan". None of this deters my belief, as I am one who studies as much as I humanly, possibly can, and I am confident in my conclusions, and am willing to discuss/share them with anyone who wants to hear them.

The biggest change in all of this is that I have openly, happily, and fully abandoned "religion" as both a pracice and a construct, as I believe that it is one of the greatest deterrents to people coming to the knowledge of the truth in the world today.

I know not where this journey will take me, but I'm excited to see where the road ahead will lead.

reply to post by Thejaybird


Thanks so much for your contribution!
Religiosity is a really bizarre social construct......
I really appreciate everyone (including you) who have contributed their experiences.....
it's important for the future generations.

As long as the "grid" isn't destroyed (which I fear it will be). WRITE THINGS DOWN on paper!!!!

(Not just you, everyone) Anyway, thanks again.
Great post!

Originally posted by Thejaybird
................... My "crisis", if you can call it that, was dealing with the idea that a God of love would create the majority of people to spend eternity in eternal torment. That idea never, ever, made sense to me, and I needed to see where such an idea originated. The quesions and ideas raised by both Buechner and Capon gave me the courage to move forward.

And what I found fascinated me, thrilled me, and changed not only my life, but how I veiw everything in the world. This didn't happen overnight; it began fifteen years ago, and continues to this day.

To make a long story short, I now believe in what is referred to as "ultimate reconciliation", and I fully believe that it is one hundred percent supported in and by the Bible, from Genesis to the maps. Because of this, I have been branded (by Christians, no less) as a heretic, an abomination, an blashemer of the Holy Spirit, and in my personal favorite, a "agent of Satan". None of this deters my belief, as I am one who studies as much as I humanly, possibly can, and I am confident in my conclusions, and am willing to discuss/share them with anyone who wants to hear them.

The biggest change in all of this is that I have openly, happily, and fully abandoned "religion" as both a pracice and a construct, as I believe that it is one of the greatest deterrents to people coming to the knowledge of the truth in the world today.

I know not where this journey will take me, but I'm excited to see where the road ahead will lead.

The false doctrine of the eternal punishment of hell will be the "turning point" for most people.BTW that is a root meaning of the word crisis and has to do with judgement.Judgment in Hebrew word is MISHPAT which means verdict.It is about truth not condemnation.In Greek it is connected to words with a prefix "kri" ..meaning ....I judge.Crisis in English come from Krisis in Greek meaning an experience and time of crucial testing.Which connects to torment which is touchstone...how gold is tested for purity.As you can see..so many of the words meaning of "religion" are completely out of wack.

The wide path of religion has many turns but all of them lead to the wide gate where religion is destroyed(an irony for the standard belief).The narrow path is where everything gets turned on it's head.The myth of free will being a catalyst.Then you will know what being called a heretic by EVERYONE is.

again ... being free of the false doctrine of eternal punishment is a MAJOR turning point leading to"many,many,more...however ...in the scheme of things it is just a preview.All the best to you.

reply to post by Rex282


That's an interesting position, Rex. This thread is meant as a repository, though, a place to describe only, not to be judged or debate....it's just so that everyone's stories can be "filed" in one place... it's not meant to be a place for anyone to try to "correct" anyone else's perceptions.

Simply a "master file" of members' experiences. I notice you haven't shared yours yet, however -would you like to do so? Like NPR's "story corps" and "this American Life" programs.

You've got a good start here, but left out your own story leading up to how you came to where you are today....please do share! I've noticed your posts on the other forums and would like to hear more from you.

Thanks,
~wild

reply to post by Thejaybird

To make a long story short, I now believe in what is referred to as "ultimate reconciliation",

Does this come before or after a thousand years in hellfire?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Thejaybird

 

To make a long story short, I now believe in what is referred to as "ultimate reconciliation",

Does this come before or after a thousand years in hellfire?

There is no such place as hell. Jesus never said the word "he'll" once, and the Hebrew word that the translators used for hell is "Sheol", which has zero connotation of a place of torment.