Have you ever fallen from grace?

Eli. Eli. Lama sabachthani.

"My God. Why have you forsaken me?"

According to the Gospel of Mathew, these were some of Christ's last words.

What could have made him speak them? Did God forsake Him? Or was Christ there for a reason? What were Jesus's reasons for being on the cross and why did he think Father abandoned him?

reply to post by SpiritofEnoch

Personally, I believe in that moment of abandonment, that it's not where God turned his eye away (from the embodiment of sin and evil - since God is ever present and transcendent of the duality of good and evil) but the point at which all spiritual "wealth" and power (authority) was "transferred" as one God replaced another before the observing eyes of the entire universe and the whole spectrum of all being and becoming i.e.: that the true God of love (and Absolute Godhead) was always "watching and observing", behind the scenes, hidden even from Jesus' own interpretations and perception.

And when the real God (of love) kicked back in and Jesus said "it is finished" - that is the very moment, imho, at which a great cheer might be said to have gone up in heaven and right across the board, to a singular groan from the one who mistook himself for Jesus' father (in spiritual alignment with his earthly father...) and who could not help himself (being his nature) but to abandon the one on the cross (his own son or so he thought), and try to run away with the "loot" when Jesus was at his most vulnerable - caught "red handed" so to speak..

I know I know it's not the traditional Christian view, but it jives with my own experience and evaluative discernment, and logic.


Babylon is fallen! [hurrah! &, groan. (it's an inside joke..)].

How would one know if they have fallen from grace? By the example of Jesus, he has life eternal, through us, even through the vehement doubters.

The message of Jesus will reverberate through this world, for as long as we can speak

reply to post by SpiritofEnoch

How about he was thinking upon this Psalm but died before he could finish it.

My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, And from the words of My groaning? (Psalms 22:1 NKJV)

Perhaps he knew the people would have recognized the beginning of the psalm and cause them to remember what that psalm says.

There are more parallels later in these verses.

I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots.

For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from Him; But when He cried to Him, He heard. My praise shall be of You in the great assembly; I will pay My vows before those who fear Him. The poor shall eat and be satisfied; Those who seek Him will praise the Lord . Let your heart live forever! All the ends of the world Shall remember and turn to the Lord , And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You. For the kingdom is the Lord ’s, And He rules over the nations.

All the prosperous of the earth Shall eat and worship; All those who go down to the dust Shall bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep himself alive. A posterity shall serve Him. It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation, They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born, That He has done this. (Psalms 22:14-18, 24-31 NKJV)

He was leaving them with hope and a wakeup call that he would fulfill these prophecies.

The religious of the day would have sure recognize this.

Originally posted by Observationalist

I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots.

For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from Him; But when He cried to Him, He heard. My praise shall be of You in the great assembly; I will pay My vows before those who fear Him. The poor shall eat and be satisfied; Those who seek Him will praise the Lord . Let your heart live forever! All the ends of the world Shall remember and turn to the Lord , And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You. For the kingdom is the Lord ’s, And He rules over the nations.

All the prosperous of the earth Shall eat and worship; All those who go down to the dust Shall bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep himself alive. A posterity shall serve Him. It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation, They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born, That He has done this. (Psalms 22:14-18, 24-31 NKJV)

That just make my hair stand on end reading that prophecy with his plight in mind.. Thanks for sharing that.

All wonderful responses. I love it when people are open minded.

So do you think he did it to fulfill prophecy?

I don't think it would be a prophecy I would want to fulfill, smiting the creator before all creation.

Maybe he truly felt God had abandoned him. And maybe in a way, He did.

I think Jesus knew that his life eternal could only be guaranteed by his death. But he also may have felt he had suffered enough before His death and He may have asked His father to release him from the cross, to not have to know the agony of death. But in the end, all happened as it needed to.

reply to post by SpiritofEnoch

It could not have been merely to fulfill prophecy because that wound't have been entirely authentic.

reply to post by SpiritofEnoch


Jesus had been picking and getting underneath skin of the religious leaders all his life. This was another dig on them, along with those who understood a hope.

I'm not sure If in that moment God did forsake him, or if he was basically giving his grand finally for those religious leaders. There's a lot of fireworks in there

.

Well, lot's of people think that Jesus was nailed to a cross for political reasons as his thoughts deflected the local policies quite a lot and was sentenced as a rebel; As he attacked (the first? not likely) money changers at the Herod's temple.

Wiki page

They had a great business going on there of which Jesus stopped apparently.

Jesus supposedly hanged from the cross for days. In that time in that amount of pain and blood loss would make anybody to doubt everything. Think about it. Those are not "wise" words but surely not the only words or claims he had... As I would scream everything I think about anything while hanging up there. Not many would be quiet.

But the books of New Testament was written first of all way after Jesus lived and died and second from my point of view for political reasons (some for Jews and some for the Romans etc..) and have been changed severely since.

I don't think there's not much worth believing in The New Testament. I could guess forth and back but after nearly 2000 years of bad translations and censorship made it's toll. What can I say? It's been in hands of a man.

reply to post by lapinrane


Clearly.

But how many lies are believed for thousands of years without any truth at all to them?

Countless, come to think of it. It all depends on your perspective. Does the universe revolve around the earth? Of course it doesn't. Does yours?

reply to post by SpiritofEnoch


No it doesn't actually. I'm a small man and I can admit my lack of knowledge as there's not proper sources in my world. I question much, but don't crush anything as my way of thinking moves around as well. Surely I would like to know the truth about these things as much you would. I'm just pointing a view for thinking, thats all.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

It's also entirely reasonable to conclude that Jesus' experience, as the embodiment of sin and evil on the cross (although blameless), involved by necessity, the separation from God that would have befallen mankind i.e.: that his exclamation from the cross of feeling abandoned by God was when he "took the hit" that was otherwise due us in our sinful nature relative to the absolute holiness and perfection of the infinite absolute eternal Godhead.

Either way, it's absolutely heroic and a perfect representation and embodiment (paradoxically) of the love that conquers all.

Originally posted by SpiritofEnoch
reply to post by lapinrane

 

Clearly.

But how many lies are believed for thousands of years without any truth at all to them?

Countless, come to think of it. It all depends on your perspective. Does the universe revolve around the earth? Of course it doesn't. Does yours?

In an unfathomable way, it does, yes.

Check this out, what I call the Creative Agency.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Well that squaring the circle is astonishing mathematic equation of which have been wondered for decades (or for millenias? Who knows?) The ratio between earth and moon is quite exceptional for that. And it's now! As we know the moon has been closer to earth earlier in earth's history and is receding little by little. Showing the same face to earth is also very rare.

But can we say these things are unique? Might be in our solar system. We only know few planets outside of our solar system and no moons at all. As I know there could be gazillions (note: many but not sure how many) of other planetary systems acting the same way.

Now while solar eclipse our moon leaves a ring showing sun outside it, billion years ago it didn't. And now the ring just get somewhat bigger (not seen by eye) at every solar eclipse.

reply to post by lapinrane

What's called "tidal locking" is actually quite common in solar systems, even for whole planets where the one face (in this case of the moon) always remains the same from the POV of the host planet, and there are something like 30 in our own solar system which do that, so many many moons do that - but I wonder how many "chase" the son on a monthly-annual cycle such that the moon sets equidistant due West/East from due north, to the sun, at opposing solstices thus in effect mimicking the movement of the sun, from all angles and perspectives (on earth), even though the moon rotates the earth and the earth, the sun - yet another astronomical coincidence, in this case extraordinary - because no other moon systems in our solar system behave in THAT manner. What makes it extraordinary? Because is and can only be meaningful from the perspective of a sentient observer on earth. (wow).

To top it all off, it's only NOW as you aptly pointed out at this moment in earth evolution (when there also happen to be observers.. to see it) when the moon perfectly eclipses the sun (perfect reflection), another event only truly meaningful or significant to an observer which is us like NOW here on earth - as if the moon was "programmed" to coincide with the evolution of life on earth, including the human being, like some sort of "seed" of life (along with a wink and a nod from none other than God himself..).

When we then examine the composition of the moon (rang like a bell on one of the Apollo mission), and other geometric integer relationships, between the earth, moon, and sun, the moon becomes quite literally - "the strangest object in the known universe" (Isaac Azimov).

It blows the mind, and here's the thing - the strong anthropic principal cannot and does not render the data meaningless with the context of the larger universe, which leads to an even MORE startling conclusion when we begin to consider first/last causes, with the very real (if not all but certain) prospect of an intelligent design working along side of evolution thus proving both evolution and creation by intelligent design, correct.

That's a world changing idea, because it changes the whole frame of reference and let's say opens up the field of a whole new domain of freedom and enjoyment and all manner of creative play, like an invitation to participate, and a playful one at that!

Maybe God is like a little kid who just wants to play and have fun!

That it's funny and makes us laugh only increases it's likelihood of being true.


The only question then that arises is..


How did he know?



In case anyone was wondering, here is the data I was referring to, seems off topic but grace to be grace must be vast, not the kind of thing you want to fall from praise the name of Jesus Christ for taking the hit on our behalf, and because he could and was able to - that's the thing, also humorous and joyful as a loving triumph, way to go Jesus, Big Time!

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Philodemus

 

Would you like to clarify? Don't assume anything now.. there could be more to it than you think...

Let me clarify by asking you this - Although sentient life beyond earth is all but a certainty, where else in the entire universe (where stars outnumber grains of sand) can a bipedal, ten fingered, self aware sentient observer look up and see their single, giant moon (by compare to the host planet), perfectly eclipse the circumference of their sun?

And to clarify still further, let me add the following for your consideration, before you walk away all smug while tugging your lapels.. lol

Now in "light" of that, still further, please look at this rather interesting geometrical relationship

translated to the flower of life and vesica pisces

Now if you will consider this

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Jesus Christ is the Phi Ratio Son of God

The Golden Proportion is analogous to God’s relationship to creation

The Golden Section, or Phi, found throughout nature, also applies in understanding the relationship of God to Creation. In the golden section, we see that there is only one way to divide a line so that its parts are in proportion to, or in the image of, the whole:

The ratio of the larger section (B) to the whole line (A) is the same as the ratio as the smaller section (C) to the large section (B):

Only “tri-viding” the whole preserves the relationship to the whole
And so it is with our understanding of God, that we are created in His image. Not by dividing the whole, but only by tri-viding the whole does each piece retain its unique relationship to the whole. Only here do we see three that are two that are one.

The Book of John begins with these words that capture the essence of this:

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

Jesus, in John 14:9, expressed a similar thought:

Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.


Conclusion:

The human Jesus (the Son of Man) is to the divine Jesus (the Son of God) as the divine Jesus (the Son of God) is to God (the Father or whole).

www.goldennumber.net...

and then to top it off I would like to invite you to consider how.

Jesus Christ as son of God perfectly reflects the light of God (God consciousness and will to love and to share) even in the darkness, as the moon does the sun, which is both an allegory and a physical symbol/sign embedded right into the creation as a first/last cause, a sign that Jesus as a trained Magus was most certainly well aware.

Are you astonished now?

Things that make ya go hmmm....

Now, do I think that God has still more tricks up his sleeve? Sure, why not?

But you have to admit that this is a good one.

And my oh my what it says about us, about we ourselves also as children of a loving God, as sons and daighters of God..

"So do not be afraid, little ones, do not let your hearts be troubled and be of good cheer, for it pleased the father (first father of creation) to share his kingdom with all his children! (said with an exclamatory and a smile)

edit on 20-2-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

So it's grace upon Grace upon GRACE - even though we might have fallen from grace (little g) more times that we care to remember, or even count, it's there waiting for us like the hand that wipes away the little tears from our eyes, unto tears of absolute hilarity and joyfulness and peace, authentic peace and love.

Praise be to God. Amen.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by lapinrane

 

What's called "tidal locking" is actually quite common

Yes, here my knowing lacks. This is great information for me, thanks! Of course I should google more before posting, but I'm learning here as well.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by lapinrane

 

another event only truly meaningful or significant to an observer which is us like NOW here on earth - as if the moon was "programmed" to coincide with the evolution of life on earth, like some sort of "seed".

As it seems it looks like "programmed". Or it could be that moon somewhat programmed the evolution on earth? As when moon was closer it's gravity kept life from flowering by bigger tidal waves, earth quakes and volcanic activity.

I'm not crushing the idea of some kind of intelligent design, because it actually makes lot's of sense. The evolution seems to have been very rapid to our perspective and there's been huge leaps leaving no missing links whatsoever... But as we are but men, we may never find them if there is such things. As we cannot compare the evolution on earth to anything to truly know has it been fast or slow.

Also I think that this is going further and further away from the original post.

I think that Jesus knew what he was standing for while crucified therefore did not try to run or ask/accepted help of any kind. So why would he had hesitated?

reply to post by lapinrane


My point is - who can fall from a grace like that whereby grace is creative love in action - surely with a grace such as this there's a net of love also capable of catching us on the rebound, and that's the magnitude of the love of Jesus Christ, capable of protection, to the nth degree, and thus healing the world, redeeming it, through us. God wants our participation and seemingly won't accept anything less, so it's an invitation to LAY the foundation of his kingdom of heaven on earth and we are the stones, immovable in Christ, centered on him and his righteousness and ever present love of God (whether we believe and can perceive it, or not lol).

Originally posted by SpiritofEnoch
Eli. Eli. Lama sabachthani.

"My God. Why have you forsaken me?"

According to the Gospel of Mathew, these were some of Christ's last words.

What could have made him speak them? Did God forsake Him? Or was Christ there for a reason? What were Jesus's reasons for being on the cross and why did he think Father abandoned him?

I love this quote and I have made a false assumption about it previously, and most likely, loads more false assumptions to come.

After some reading and internalizing, I have concluded this is not a moment of fallen grace; it is quite the opposite.

See, I believe Father was so perturbed by what had transpired that all of Heaven thought He was going to destroy the Earth more folds than the days of the flood. However, Jesus, in his last moments in the flesh, was questioning, not pejoratively of course, of the assumptions of Above of Father's intentions of destroying everything. Basically, if Father was to destroy the earth because of the deep sadness at what had transpired, Jesus's purpose in coming to the flesh and sacrifice would be useless.

I see it as Jesus's last test from Father. When Father saw that Jesus was "on the same page," He kept the promises of all.

Sorry for double posting but I came across this thought while reading delayed christmas' post.
When this event was taking place, it would be beneficial for others to hear, and then they would be forced to deny or accept the father.
We are expected to learn from every incident, good or bad.

Jesus' questioning had an alternative purpose imo. Hope that makes sense

There is no such thing as falling from grace. The grace is omnipresent, infinite, and eternal.