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Fallen Angels 1 - Rumi the Sufi
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I thought it would be fun to do a series of threads on fallen Angels. You might think I would start with Enoch One when dealing with this subject.
After considering this carefully, I think Rumi is a better way to introduce the topic. I make no claims in this. I am simply going to list verses
with short commentary from what I know. Is Rumi, Enoch or any of the other sources we could consult correct in their perspectives and knowledge of
the subject? We can't know, but what we can do is put together a picture of the territory and expand our maps of this subject. At the end of the
thread, I'll do a summary paragraph that will then introduce the next thread. After Rumi, I will go to Enoch. After Enoch, I will investigate the
Virgin of the World document. Feel free to suggest other sources if you have favorites.
RUMI the Sufi - Masnavi (Source)
Story 3
The earthly Adam was taught of God names, 4
So that his glory reached the seventh heaven.
He laid low the name and fame of the angels, 5
Yet blind indeed are they whom God dooms to doubt!
The devotee of seven hundred thousand years (Satan)
Was made a muzzle for that yearling calf (Adam), 6
Lest he should suck milk of the knowledge of faith,
And soar on high even to the towers of heaven.
The knowledge of men of external sense is a muzzle
To stop them sucking milk of that sublime knowledge.
But God drops into the heart a single pearl-drop
Which is not bestowed on oceans or skies!"
"How long regard ye mere form, O form-worshippers?
Take this apart. The calf would feed from what? The muzzle keeps him from feeding on milk (knowledge for the young). Satan is the muzzle. In other places, Rumi speaks of Satan's pride and jealousy of Adam, refusing to bow to him when asked. I think this needs to be pictured as before mankind is born on Earth. The Son, Adam, is the first born over all creation. Here, Satan is defined as external sense, or the material world. The milk is the inward knowledge that is of high degree. Sublime denotes more than this. It also represents solid, to liquid and back to solid. To me, this also suggests involution and evolution. Satan is the muzzle for the young ox (Child of God). God is the Father -- ox (Adult Father). Ox is the strength of the house. Rumi calls the ignorance of mankind idol worship of outward form.
Story 9
But let us quit this talk of essences and properties,
And return to the story of those two wealth-seekers.
How God made Adam superior to the Angels
in wisdom and honour.
He said, "By Allah, who knoweth hidden secrets,
Who created pure Adam out of dust;
In the form, three cubits high, which he gave him,
He displayed the contents of all spirits, all decrees!
Communicated to him the indelible tablet of existence, 6
That he might know all that is written on those tablets,
A11 that should be first and last to endless eternity
He taught him, with the knowledge of his own 'names,' 7
So that the angels were beside themselves at his instruction,
And gained more sanctity from his sanctification.
The expansion of their minds, which Adam brought about,
Was a thing unequalled by the expansion of the heavens.
For the wide expanse of that pure mind
The wide space of the seven heavens was not enough."
The Prophet said that God has declared,
"I am not contained in aught above or below,
I am not contained in earth or sky, or even
In highest heaven. Know this for a surety. O beloved!
Yet am I contained in the believer's heart!
We get this story over and over again from many ancient manuscripts. Adam was exalted above Angels. From Colossians 1, we get the same story of the Hebrew Adam Kadmon (Primordial Soul) that contains the essence (Word) of all souls. By the sacrifice of the Son, all of humanity lives (One to many). In 1 Corinthians 10, we hear humanity referred to as the loaf of bread, while Jesus is the Son of God (Adam One and Last Adam) and the heel of the loaf that crushes the head of Satan (Genesis 3). The "Tablets of Existence" are a topic I will cover in the next thread. Enoch was said to have traveled to heaven to read the tablets. Next, we see that the tablets are read to know our history before it happens. The Angles were very jealous at this instruction to a lower creature. Because Adam was set apart (Sanctified), his instruction placed him further above the Angles. As a byproduct, the Angles were also educated to a part of the mystery. When we read the book of Enoch, we find that Enoch relates this partially taught mystery as worthless to the Angles because they did not know the beginning from the end. They took the knowledge and misused it. Notice that the "Expansion of the Heavens" is used in relation to knowledge increasing. In Hermetic sources, the Son of God is the Cosmos. Put the words here together with that thought and you get a new idea indeed. Tied into this, we see that God cannot be contained above or below (Macro and Microcosm). God is too large for the Cosmos, yet He can be found as that pearl drop in all of us. Infinity is within us all and CAN be found if we search for the pearl. That pearl is giving and never taking. This is the will of God.
If ye seek me, search in such hearts!"
He said also, "Enter the hearts of my servants 8
To gain the paradise of beholding Me, O fearer of God."
Highest heaven, with all its light and wide expanse,
When it beheld Adam, was shaken from its place!
Highest heaven is greatness itself revealed;
But what is form when reality draws nigh?
Every angel declared, "In times of yore
We bore friendship to the plains of earth;
We were wont to sow the seed of service on the earth,
Wherefore we bore a wondrous attachment to it.
What was this attachment to that house of earth
When our own natures are heavenly?
What was the friendship of lights like us to darkness?
How can light dwell together with darkness?
O Adam! that friendship arose from the scent of thee,
Because the earth is the warp and weft of thy body.
Thy earthly body was taken from there,
Thy pure spirit of light was shed down from here!
But our souls were enlightened by thy spirit 9
Long, long before earth had diverted it to itself.
We used to be on earth, ignorant of tho earth,
Ignorant of the treasure buried within it.
When we were commanded to depart from that place,
We felt sorrow at turning our steps away from it.
So that we raised many questions, saying,
' O Lord! who will come to take our place?
Wilt Thou barter the glory of our praises and homage
For the vain babble (of men)?'
If you want to find God, search in the hearts of true believers. Search in the hearts of the righteous. Who are they? The ones that serve (give to others). Example: Watch the movie: Courageous. "What is form when reality draws near?" Do you think the world of form is reality? Think again. Reality is not this place of painted images (Words of Buddha). In times of old, the angles made friends with men on the plains of reality were men dwell. They wished to assist us if possible. Note the attitude toward mankind in the last sentence of this set. They see us as vain. They grew attached to us. This is a different view than what is told to us from our historians who said the overlords were sacrificing humans. Maybe they were, but there are two sides to every story. The mystery in all of this is how God educates. He allows us to freely explore his Cosmos, yet restricts us. Even in the restriction, God knows what we will do. This is yet another form of instruction to us. Even in error, we learn. Suffering is necessary for gifts to be earned, as well as what is learned when we suffer as a result of pride. It's all education. An important question is asked: Why are they attached to the 'HOUSE' of Earth (in my Father's house are many mansions...) when their own natures were heavenly (Space and Time)? Note this from Jude 1 in the Bible:
Jude 1
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Notice the differing opinions. The attitude of Rumi is of some type of love for mankind. Note that Genesis 6 tells of the fallen beings that entered the daughters of mankind after lusting for them. In Jasher, we find the manipulation of DNA and the Sons of the fallen being a race of giants. When we return to the passage above, we see that the Angles longed after the 'scent' of Adam. Next, we have one of the most telling parts of this whole thing.
"Because the earth is the warp and weft of thy body.
Thy earthly body was taken from there,
Thy pure spirit of light was shed down from here!
But our souls were enlightened by thy spirit 9
Long, long before earth had diverted it to itself."
Adam's body was taken from the Earth (Dust). The pure Spirit of Light was shed (Sacrificed / Cross) down from 'here' (Heaven) to Earth. In many places, Rumi demonstrates an understanding of Jesus and makes is clear he knows about involution and evolution of Spirit. After this, we read, "But our souls" (Angles) were enlightened by Adam's Spirit. Long before earth and Spirit was diverted to itself, the Angles were being taught by Adam as he was being taught by God. In other words, Adam was first ONE Spirit, apart from matter. This is Genesis 1. After this (Genesis 2), he sacrificed himself to create a multiplicity of souls (Created the material world and set desire there as our muzzle). Through involution, the primordial soul becomes the division of humanity. We are baptized into the water so we can rise back again. From this, the Angles learn the full mystery of God. So do we. This is God's form of instructional design.
More to come.
RUMI the Sufi - Masnavi (Source)
Story 3
The earthly Adam was taught of God names, 4
So that his glory reached the seventh heaven.
He laid low the name and fame of the angels, 5
Yet blind indeed are they whom God dooms to doubt!
The devotee of seven hundred thousand years (Satan)
Was made a muzzle for that yearling calf (Adam), 6
Lest he should suck milk of the knowledge of faith,
And soar on high even to the towers of heaven.
The knowledge of men of external sense is a muzzle
To stop them sucking milk of that sublime knowledge.
But God drops into the heart a single pearl-drop
Which is not bestowed on oceans or skies!"
"How long regard ye mere form, O form-worshippers?
Take this apart. The calf would feed from what? The muzzle keeps him from feeding on milk (knowledge for the young). Satan is the muzzle. In other places, Rumi speaks of Satan's pride and jealousy of Adam, refusing to bow to him when asked. I think this needs to be pictured as before mankind is born on Earth. The Son, Adam, is the first born over all creation. Here, Satan is defined as external sense, or the material world. The milk is the inward knowledge that is of high degree. Sublime denotes more than this. It also represents solid, to liquid and back to solid. To me, this also suggests involution and evolution. Satan is the muzzle for the young ox (Child of God). God is the Father -- ox (Adult Father). Ox is the strength of the house. Rumi calls the ignorance of mankind idol worship of outward form.
Story 9
But let us quit this talk of essences and properties,
And return to the story of those two wealth-seekers.
How God made Adam superior to the Angels
in wisdom and honour.
He said, "By Allah, who knoweth hidden secrets,
Who created pure Adam out of dust;
In the form, three cubits high, which he gave him,
He displayed the contents of all spirits, all decrees!
Communicated to him the indelible tablet of existence, 6
That he might know all that is written on those tablets,
A11 that should be first and last to endless eternity
He taught him, with the knowledge of his own 'names,' 7
So that the angels were beside themselves at his instruction,
And gained more sanctity from his sanctification.
The expansion of their minds, which Adam brought about,
Was a thing unequalled by the expansion of the heavens.
For the wide expanse of that pure mind
The wide space of the seven heavens was not enough."
The Prophet said that God has declared,
"I am not contained in aught above or below,
I am not contained in earth or sky, or even
In highest heaven. Know this for a surety. O beloved!
Yet am I contained in the believer's heart!
We get this story over and over again from many ancient manuscripts. Adam was exalted above Angels. From Colossians 1, we get the same story of the Hebrew Adam Kadmon (Primordial Soul) that contains the essence (Word) of all souls. By the sacrifice of the Son, all of humanity lives (One to many). In 1 Corinthians 10, we hear humanity referred to as the loaf of bread, while Jesus is the Son of God (Adam One and Last Adam) and the heel of the loaf that crushes the head of Satan (Genesis 3). The "Tablets of Existence" are a topic I will cover in the next thread. Enoch was said to have traveled to heaven to read the tablets. Next, we see that the tablets are read to know our history before it happens. The Angles were very jealous at this instruction to a lower creature. Because Adam was set apart (Sanctified), his instruction placed him further above the Angles. As a byproduct, the Angles were also educated to a part of the mystery. When we read the book of Enoch, we find that Enoch relates this partially taught mystery as worthless to the Angles because they did not know the beginning from the end. They took the knowledge and misused it. Notice that the "Expansion of the Heavens" is used in relation to knowledge increasing. In Hermetic sources, the Son of God is the Cosmos. Put the words here together with that thought and you get a new idea indeed. Tied into this, we see that God cannot be contained above or below (Macro and Microcosm). God is too large for the Cosmos, yet He can be found as that pearl drop in all of us. Infinity is within us all and CAN be found if we search for the pearl. That pearl is giving and never taking. This is the will of God.
If ye seek me, search in such hearts!"
He said also, "Enter the hearts of my servants 8
To gain the paradise of beholding Me, O fearer of God."
Highest heaven, with all its light and wide expanse,
When it beheld Adam, was shaken from its place!
Highest heaven is greatness itself revealed;
But what is form when reality draws nigh?
Every angel declared, "In times of yore
We bore friendship to the plains of earth;
We were wont to sow the seed of service on the earth,
Wherefore we bore a wondrous attachment to it.
What was this attachment to that house of earth
When our own natures are heavenly?
What was the friendship of lights like us to darkness?
How can light dwell together with darkness?
O Adam! that friendship arose from the scent of thee,
Because the earth is the warp and weft of thy body.
Thy earthly body was taken from there,
Thy pure spirit of light was shed down from here!
But our souls were enlightened by thy spirit 9
Long, long before earth had diverted it to itself.
We used to be on earth, ignorant of tho earth,
Ignorant of the treasure buried within it.
When we were commanded to depart from that place,
We felt sorrow at turning our steps away from it.
So that we raised many questions, saying,
' O Lord! who will come to take our place?
Wilt Thou barter the glory of our praises and homage
For the vain babble (of men)?'
If you want to find God, search in the hearts of true believers. Search in the hearts of the righteous. Who are they? The ones that serve (give to others). Example: Watch the movie: Courageous. "What is form when reality draws near?" Do you think the world of form is reality? Think again. Reality is not this place of painted images (Words of Buddha). In times of old, the angles made friends with men on the plains of reality were men dwell. They wished to assist us if possible. Note the attitude toward mankind in the last sentence of this set. They see us as vain. They grew attached to us. This is a different view than what is told to us from our historians who said the overlords were sacrificing humans. Maybe they were, but there are two sides to every story. The mystery in all of this is how God educates. He allows us to freely explore his Cosmos, yet restricts us. Even in the restriction, God knows what we will do. This is yet another form of instruction to us. Even in error, we learn. Suffering is necessary for gifts to be earned, as well as what is learned when we suffer as a result of pride. It's all education. An important question is asked: Why are they attached to the 'HOUSE' of Earth (in my Father's house are many mansions...) when their own natures were heavenly (Space and Time)? Note this from Jude 1 in the Bible:
Jude 1
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Notice the differing opinions. The attitude of Rumi is of some type of love for mankind. Note that Genesis 6 tells of the fallen beings that entered the daughters of mankind after lusting for them. In Jasher, we find the manipulation of DNA and the Sons of the fallen being a race of giants. When we return to the passage above, we see that the Angles longed after the 'scent' of Adam. Next, we have one of the most telling parts of this whole thing.
"Because the earth is the warp and weft of thy body.
Thy earthly body was taken from there,
Thy pure spirit of light was shed down from here!
But our souls were enlightened by thy spirit 9
Long, long before earth had diverted it to itself."
Adam's body was taken from the Earth (Dust). The pure Spirit of Light was shed (Sacrificed / Cross) down from 'here' (Heaven) to Earth. In many places, Rumi demonstrates an understanding of Jesus and makes is clear he knows about involution and evolution of Spirit. After this, we read, "But our souls" (Angles) were enlightened by Adam's Spirit. Long before earth and Spirit was diverted to itself, the Angles were being taught by Adam as he was being taught by God. In other words, Adam was first ONE Spirit, apart from matter. This is Genesis 1. After this (Genesis 2), he sacrificed himself to create a multiplicity of souls (Created the material world and set desire there as our muzzle). Through involution, the primordial soul becomes the division of humanity. We are baptized into the water so we can rise back again. From this, the Angles learn the full mystery of God. So do we. This is God's form of instructional design.
More to come.
edit on 21-2-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)
Continued from OP - RUMI PART II
Wilt Thou barter the glory of our praises and homage
For the vain babble (of men)?'
The commands of God then diffused joy upon us; He said,
'What are ye saying at such length?
What ye give tongue to so foolishly
Is as the words of spoiled children to their father.
I knew of myself what ye thought,
But I desired that ye should speak it;
As this boasting of yours is very improper,
So shall my mercy be shown to prevail over my wrath:
O angels, in order to show forth that prevailing,
I inspired that pretension to cavil and doubt;
If you say your say, and I forbear to punish you,
The gainsayers of my mercy must hold their peace.
My mercy equals that of a hundred fathers and mothers;
Every soul that is born is amazed thereat.
Their mercy is as the foam of the sea of my mercy;
It is mere foam of waves, but the sea abides ever!
What more shall I say? In that earthly shell
There is naught but foam of foam of foam of foam!'"
God is that foam; God is also that pure sea,
For His words are neither a temptation nor a vain boast.
Plurality and Partial Evil, though seemingly
opposed to Unity, subserve Good.
The story is now concluded, with its ups and downs,
Like lovers' musings, without beginning or ending.
It has no beginning, even as eternity,
Nor ending, for 'tis akin to world without end.
In the last post, the Angels were lamenting about having to leave the Earth. They now ask the question, "Wilt Thou barter the glory of our praises and homage For the vain babble (of men)?'
Will God trade the glory of the Angels praise for homage to the vain babble of mankind? I can imagine they were in a state of wonderment and pride over their lofty positions. God explained to them that they were like spoiled children who were impatient for the end result. God already knew their thoughts. Just as they showed improper boasting over mankind, God would reverse this by showing mercy and compassion over the lowly. God inspired that pretension (Their claim) to show his mercy as superior. It was an example to them. He tells the critic to hold his peace. He then essentially says, "Can you love humanity more than God?" Can we love our children more than God? Only if we are 100 Fathers combined, we might have a slim chance to love more than God. All souls born are amazed by God's love when directly experiencing it. God is the waves and foam, but he is also that pure sea that is at rest. He is both unity and multiplicity (All of it infinity).
Consider this quote: "There's no more brilliant light than that which follows complete darkness." From the movie, "The Cafe." Watch the move on Netflix. You won't be sorry. Also, consider what Confucius said: "I hear and I forget. I see and I learn. I do and I understand." If you want another great move, see the Kurt Douglass movie Illusion.
God's Words are neither temptation of boasting. Even division and evil serve God's purposes of good in the end. When he says ups and downs, you will then get his secondary allusion to involution and evolution next. The world (Water), is literally without end. It's always now. As for the ups and downs, consider what he says next.
Or like water, each drop whereof is at once
Beginning and end, and also has no beginning or end.
But God forbid! This story is not a vain fable,
'Tis the ready money of your state and mine, be sure!
Before every Sufi who is enlightened
Whatever is past is never mentioned.
When his whole thoughts are absorbed in present ecstasy,
No thought of consequences enters his mind. l0
Arab, water-pot, and angels are all ourselves!
Baptism is the involvement in the water so we can then rise (Evolve) back to unity with God. Each drop is you and me, the Angels and all other life in the Cosmos. Time has no beginning or end in reality. Each unity of infinity is merely a division of one thing that never ends. Like dew coming down from above, it rises when the sun evaporates and distills it back to the main body of water it came from. We get our reward (ready money) as God forgets our sins and gives us that sin (Sheep's wool) back as a new robe (Body in the next life) and Crown (Mind) from what we learn previously. When we finally live in the moment with love for others, we forget the law we no longer need. This is Atonement with God.
At One Ment
We are made in the image of God. When we look in the mirror and know what we see, we finally see the face of God.
Wilt Thou barter the glory of our praises and homage
For the vain babble (of men)?'
The commands of God then diffused joy upon us; He said,
'What are ye saying at such length?
What ye give tongue to so foolishly
Is as the words of spoiled children to their father.
I knew of myself what ye thought,
But I desired that ye should speak it;
As this boasting of yours is very improper,
So shall my mercy be shown to prevail over my wrath:
O angels, in order to show forth that prevailing,
I inspired that pretension to cavil and doubt;
If you say your say, and I forbear to punish you,
The gainsayers of my mercy must hold their peace.
My mercy equals that of a hundred fathers and mothers;
Every soul that is born is amazed thereat.
Their mercy is as the foam of the sea of my mercy;
It is mere foam of waves, but the sea abides ever!
What more shall I say? In that earthly shell
There is naught but foam of foam of foam of foam!'"
God is that foam; God is also that pure sea,
For His words are neither a temptation nor a vain boast.
Plurality and Partial Evil, though seemingly
opposed to Unity, subserve Good.
The story is now concluded, with its ups and downs,
Like lovers' musings, without beginning or ending.
It has no beginning, even as eternity,
Nor ending, for 'tis akin to world without end.
In the last post, the Angels were lamenting about having to leave the Earth. They now ask the question, "Wilt Thou barter the glory of our praises and homage For the vain babble (of men)?'
Will God trade the glory of the Angels praise for homage to the vain babble of mankind? I can imagine they were in a state of wonderment and pride over their lofty positions. God explained to them that they were like spoiled children who were impatient for the end result. God already knew their thoughts. Just as they showed improper boasting over mankind, God would reverse this by showing mercy and compassion over the lowly. God inspired that pretension (Their claim) to show his mercy as superior. It was an example to them. He tells the critic to hold his peace. He then essentially says, "Can you love humanity more than God?" Can we love our children more than God? Only if we are 100 Fathers combined, we might have a slim chance to love more than God. All souls born are amazed by God's love when directly experiencing it. God is the waves and foam, but he is also that pure sea that is at rest. He is both unity and multiplicity (All of it infinity).
Consider this quote: "There's no more brilliant light than that which follows complete darkness." From the movie, "The Cafe." Watch the move on Netflix. You won't be sorry. Also, consider what Confucius said: "I hear and I forget. I see and I learn. I do and I understand." If you want another great move, see the Kurt Douglass movie Illusion.
God's Words are neither temptation of boasting. Even division and evil serve God's purposes of good in the end. When he says ups and downs, you will then get his secondary allusion to involution and evolution next. The world (Water), is literally without end. It's always now. As for the ups and downs, consider what he says next.
Or like water, each drop whereof is at once
Beginning and end, and also has no beginning or end.
But God forbid! This story is not a vain fable,
'Tis the ready money of your state and mine, be sure!
Before every Sufi who is enlightened
Whatever is past is never mentioned.
When his whole thoughts are absorbed in present ecstasy,
No thought of consequences enters his mind. l0
Arab, water-pot, and angels are all ourselves!
Baptism is the involvement in the water so we can then rise (Evolve) back to unity with God. Each drop is you and me, the Angels and all other life in the Cosmos. Time has no beginning or end in reality. Each unity of infinity is merely a division of one thing that never ends. Like dew coming down from above, it rises when the sun evaporates and distills it back to the main body of water it came from. We get our reward (ready money) as God forgets our sins and gives us that sin (Sheep's wool) back as a new robe (Body in the next life) and Crown (Mind) from what we learn previously. When we finally live in the moment with love for others, we forget the law we no longer need. This is Atonement with God.
At One Ment
We are made in the image of God. When we look in the mirror and know what we see, we finally see the face of God.
Rumi - Part III
"Whatsoever turneth from God is turned from Him." 11
Know the husband is reason, the wife lust and greed;
She is vested with darkness and a gainsayer of reason.
Learn now whence springs the root of this circumstance,
From this, that the Whole has parts of divers kinds.
These parts of the Whole are not parts in relation to it,
Not in the way that rose's scent is a part of the rose.
The beauty of the green shoot is part of the rose's beauty,
But the turtle-dove's cooing is a part of that Bulbuls music.
But if I engage in doubts and answers,
How can I give water to thirsty souls?
Yet, if you are perplexed by Whole and finite parts,
Have patience, for c( patience is the key of joy."
Be abstinent, abstinent from vague thoughts,
Since there are lions in that desert (of thoughts).
I would love to keep going on Rumi, but he is very deep and it would take me a large book to contain it all. I will, however, diverge with this next passage.
If we turn from God, we are the turned from him. How do we picture this? Like a husband and wife when are having a disagreement. The husband is our reasoning of things by rational logic. The wife is desire for what is not at our disposal. In our case, knowledge of God is the main thing we can possibly desire. Our desire is invested (involved) with the muzzle on the calf (Satan - Material shroud). This makes the female aspect the critic of reason. This is emotion over intellect. What is the root of the problem? Division is the answer. The parts are us and the whole is the Son, the thing the Angels were jealous of seeing separated to the material world. Can you imagine the Angels wanting to take the universe for themselves as creators, the finding out that God was giving it to man? Division of the whole into new roses is the meaning of one and many. God desires fellowship with creation. One part nourishes and provides for the next. Nature can only give. God's will is to give only. The thief and proud are the ones that separate themselves willingly. The only way we turn from God is to take what is not ours to take.
If a person engages in doubts and seeking answers (Why have they done this to us?), then how can a thirsty soul receive water? Have patience instead. Compare this to the words in the Dhammapada:
Choices
Chapter 1 - Choices
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with a pure mind
And happiness will follow you
As your shadow, unshakable.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Live with such thoughts and you live in hate.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Abandon such thoughts, and live in love.
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.
You too shall pass away.
Knowing this, how can you quarrel?
How easily the wind overturns a frail tree.
Seek happiness in the senses,
Indulge in food and sleep,
And you too will be uprooted.
The wind cannot overturn a mountain.
Temptation cannot touch the man
Who is awake, strong and humble,
Who masters himself and minds the dharma.
Dharma is our responsibility to others according to the law above.
"Whatsoever turneth from God is turned from Him." 11
Know the husband is reason, the wife lust and greed;
She is vested with darkness and a gainsayer of reason.
Learn now whence springs the root of this circumstance,
From this, that the Whole has parts of divers kinds.
These parts of the Whole are not parts in relation to it,
Not in the way that rose's scent is a part of the rose.
The beauty of the green shoot is part of the rose's beauty,
But the turtle-dove's cooing is a part of that Bulbuls music.
But if I engage in doubts and answers,
How can I give water to thirsty souls?
Yet, if you are perplexed by Whole and finite parts,
Have patience, for c( patience is the key of joy."
Be abstinent, abstinent from vague thoughts,
Since there are lions in that desert (of thoughts).
I would love to keep going on Rumi, but he is very deep and it would take me a large book to contain it all. I will, however, diverge with this next passage.
If we turn from God, we are the turned from him. How do we picture this? Like a husband and wife when are having a disagreement. The husband is our reasoning of things by rational logic. The wife is desire for what is not at our disposal. In our case, knowledge of God is the main thing we can possibly desire. Our desire is invested (involved) with the muzzle on the calf (Satan - Material shroud). This makes the female aspect the critic of reason. This is emotion over intellect. What is the root of the problem? Division is the answer. The parts are us and the whole is the Son, the thing the Angels were jealous of seeing separated to the material world. Can you imagine the Angels wanting to take the universe for themselves as creators, the finding out that God was giving it to man? Division of the whole into new roses is the meaning of one and many. God desires fellowship with creation. One part nourishes and provides for the next. Nature can only give. God's will is to give only. The thief and proud are the ones that separate themselves willingly. The only way we turn from God is to take what is not ours to take.
If a person engages in doubts and seeking answers (Why have they done this to us?), then how can a thirsty soul receive water? Have patience instead. Compare this to the words in the Dhammapada:
Choices
Chapter 1 - Choices
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with a pure mind
And happiness will follow you
As your shadow, unshakable.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Live with such thoughts and you live in hate.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Abandon such thoughts, and live in love.
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.
You too shall pass away.
Knowing this, how can you quarrel?
How easily the wind overturns a frail tree.
Seek happiness in the senses,
Indulge in food and sleep,
And you too will be uprooted.
The wind cannot overturn a mountain.
Temptation cannot touch the man
Who is awake, strong and humble,
Who masters himself and minds the dharma.
Dharma is our responsibility to others according to the law above.
Part 4 - RUMI
Rumi knew something as an Islamic Sufi. He knew Christ was Adam. Consider this passages where he hides what he knows.
He is the sun of the spirit, not that of the sky,
For from his light men and angels draw life.
That sun is hidden in the form of a man,
Understand me! Allah knows the truth.
Those of you who think religion is sun worship should look deeper. Compare this to Deuteronomy 4
19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
20 But the Lord hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.
Those of you who are still with me will see what Rumi and Moses witnessed. Egypt is the refinery of Earth. We are the oar. What comes from the process is what God takes through the wilderness to the promised land. The Sun Rumi knows as the Son of God is not the sun at all. It's is the division of that first soul of Adam. Jesus is hidden in the foam.
How philosophers deceive themselves.
On the last day, 1 "when Earth shall quake with quaking,"
This earth shall give witness of her condition.
For she "shall tell out her tidings openly,"
Yea, earth and her rocks shall tell them forth!
The philosopher reasons from base analogies
(True reason comes not out of a dark corner) ;
Rumi knew something as an Islamic Sufi. He knew Christ was Adam. Consider this passages where he hides what he knows.
He is the sun of the spirit, not that of the sky,
For from his light men and angels draw life.
That sun is hidden in the form of a man,
Understand me! Allah knows the truth.
Those of you who think religion is sun worship should look deeper. Compare this to Deuteronomy 4
19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
20 But the Lord hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.
Those of you who are still with me will see what Rumi and Moses witnessed. Egypt is the refinery of Earth. We are the oar. What comes from the process is what God takes through the wilderness to the promised land. The Sun Rumi knows as the Son of God is not the sun at all. It's is the division of that first soul of Adam. Jesus is hidden in the foam.
How philosophers deceive themselves.
On the last day, 1 "when Earth shall quake with quaking,"
This earth shall give witness of her condition.
For she "shall tell out her tidings openly,"
Yea, earth and her rocks shall tell them forth!
The philosopher reasons from base analogies
(True reason comes not out of a dark corner) ;
Part 5 - RUMI
If you can see so far, consider this as a key to salvation. How can we separate Christ (ADAM) from the law of love? Either we face God by the character of His Son, or we turn from God toward our own lust. Rumi gives us the key by comparing us to the Angel doomed or the Angel united with the whole. See this as yin / yang and the opposites learned from the knowledge of good and evil.
Even when an evil befalls you, have due regard;
Regard well him who does you this ill turn.
The sight which regards the ebb and flow of good and ill
Opens a passage for you from misfortune to happiness.
Thence you see the one state moves you into the other, 2
One opposite state generating its opposite in exchange.
So long as you experience not fears after joys,
How can you look for pleasures after disgusts?
While ye fear the doom of the angel on the left hand,
Men hope for the bliss of the angel on the right. 3
May you gain two wings! 4 A fowl with only one wing
Is impotent to fly, O well-intentioned one!
Now either permit me to hold my peace altogether,
Or give me leave to explain the whole matter.
And if you dislike this and forbid that,
Who can tell what your desire is?
You must have the soul of Abraham in order with light
To see the mansions of Paradise in the fire.
Step by step he ascended above sun and moon,
And so lagged not below, as a ring that fastens a door.
Since the "Friend of God" ascended above the heavens,
And said, "I love not Gods that set;" 5
So this world of the body is a breeder of misconceptions
In all who have not fled from lust.
If you can see so far, consider this as a key to salvation. How can we separate Christ (ADAM) from the law of love? Either we face God by the character of His Son, or we turn from God toward our own lust. Rumi gives us the key by comparing us to the Angel doomed or the Angel united with the whole. See this as yin / yang and the opposites learned from the knowledge of good and evil.
Even when an evil befalls you, have due regard;
Regard well him who does you this ill turn.
The sight which regards the ebb and flow of good and ill
Opens a passage for you from misfortune to happiness.
Thence you see the one state moves you into the other, 2
One opposite state generating its opposite in exchange.
So long as you experience not fears after joys,
How can you look for pleasures after disgusts?
While ye fear the doom of the angel on the left hand,
Men hope for the bliss of the angel on the right. 3
May you gain two wings! 4 A fowl with only one wing
Is impotent to fly, O well-intentioned one!
Now either permit me to hold my peace altogether,
Or give me leave to explain the whole matter.
And if you dislike this and forbid that,
Who can tell what your desire is?
You must have the soul of Abraham in order with light
To see the mansions of Paradise in the fire.
Step by step he ascended above sun and moon,
And so lagged not below, as a ring that fastens a door.
Since the "Friend of God" ascended above the heavens,
And said, "I love not Gods that set;" 5
So this world of the body is a breeder of misconceptions
In all who have not fled from lust.
reply to post by EnochWasRight
I think it will be fun to.... to put our ideas together and see what we come up with.
Yes, but you are always full of surprises.
Just to begin... when I read Adam, my thought goes to Jesus. Jesus being Adam.
Also when I think of Satan, I do not think of a demon, I think of ignorance. Thats what Satan is to me.
Again, the opposite of knowledge is ignorance, see below.
We are ignorant to our true form... well... some of us.
This is so exciting....
Being the first and last, including the collective? I think so. In the "end" he crushes the ignorance of knowledge and we begin with life. We learn. A reboot, if you will. lol
Humanity must be pretty predictable.
This is why I love Hermes. The creator is so creative, he has created everything (Cosmos). The ultimate force.
Now that was a perfect example of ignorance. It sounds as if they were on Earth before it had form while it was still void. They used to be on earth and were ignorant but some would say they sinned, or "satan did it". No, they had a choice and they made a wrong one.
No I don't and you are right, its not this place of painted images going faster than the speed of light. Its really mind blowing when you think about it.
I feel sorry for them for having to help us and be on call day in and day out, but I guess they have noting better to do OR its just their experience at the level of their reality. There are many levels, many mansions I would imagine.
I agree.. he is the first and last. Genesis 2 is the Big Bang in my opinion, when multiple souls were created. The ignorant state set- in the desires of the material world in all its forms.
The soul does become the division time and time again until it perfects and ascends (as you said in the other thread) from matter to spirit or evolves. This is done by the baptism, time and time again. We will probably continue to read about this idea through Enoch and the Virgin as well. They seem to have a theme going.
I thought it would be fun to do a series of threads on fallen Angels.
I think it will be fun to.... to put our ideas together and see what we come up with.
You might think I would start with Enoch One when dealing with this subject.
Yes, but you are always full of surprises.
Just to begin... when I read Adam, my thought goes to Jesus. Jesus being Adam.
Also when I think of Satan, I do not think of a demon, I think of ignorance. Thats what Satan is to me.
The knowledge of men of external sense is a muzzle
Again, the opposite of knowledge is ignorance, see below.
The muzzle keeps him from feeding on milk (knowledge for the young). Satan is the muzzle.
"How long regard ye mere form, O form-worshippers?
We are ignorant to our true form... well... some of us.
Jesus is the Son of God (Adam One and Last Adam) and the heel of the loaf that crushes the head of Satan
This is so exciting....
Being the first and last, including the collective? I think so. In the "end" he crushes the ignorance of knowledge and we begin with life. We learn. A reboot, if you will. lol
Next, we see that the tablets are read to know our history before it happens.
Humanity must be pretty predictable.
In Hermetic sources, the Son of God is the Cosmos
This is why I love Hermes. The creator is so creative, he has created everything (Cosmos). The ultimate force.
Long, long before earth had diverted it to itself. We used to be on earth, ignorant of tho earth, Ignorant of the treasure buried within it. When we were commanded to depart from that place, We felt sorrow at turning our steps away from it. So that we raised many questions, saying, ' O Lord! who will come to take our place? Wilt Thou barter the glory of our praises and homage For the vain babble (of men)?'
Now that was a perfect example of ignorance. It sounds as if they were on Earth before it had form while it was still void. They used to be on earth and were ignorant but some would say they sinned, or "satan did it". No, they had a choice and they made a wrong one.
Do you think the world of form is reality? Think again. Reality is not this place of painted images (Words of Buddha). In times of old, the angles made friends with men on the plains of reality were men dwell. They wished to assist us if possible. Note the attitude toward mankind in the last sentence of this set. They see us as vain. They grew attached to us.
No I don't and you are right, its not this place of painted images going faster than the speed of light. Its really mind blowing when you think about it.
I feel sorry for them for having to help us and be on call day in and day out, but I guess they have noting better to do OR its just their experience at the level of their reality. There are many levels, many mansions I would imagine.
Adam was first ONE Spirit, apart from matter. This is Genesis 1. After this (Genesis 2), he sacrificed himself to create a multiplicity of souls (Created the material world and set desire there as our muzzle). Through involution, the primordial soul becomes the division of humanity. We are baptized into the water so we can rise back again
I agree.. he is the first and last. Genesis 2 is the Big Bang in my opinion, when multiple souls were created. The ignorant state set- in the desires of the material world in all its forms.
The soul does become the division time and time again until it perfects and ascends (as you said in the other thread) from matter to spirit or evolves. This is done by the baptism, time and time again. We will probably continue to read about this idea through Enoch and the Virgin as well. They seem to have a theme going.
Rumi Part 6
And say, 'Ah! my prayers are as defective as my being;
O requite me good for evil!'"
Moses questions God as to the reason of
the flourishing state of the wicked.
Moses said, "O beneficent Creator,
With whom a moment's remembrance is as long ages,
I see Thy plan distorted in this world of earth and water;
My heart, like the angel's, feels a difficulty thereat.
With what object hast thou framed this plan,
And sowed therein the seeds of evil?
Why hast Thou kindled the fire of violence and wrong?
Why burnt up mosques and them who worship therein?
Paradise is attached to requirements unpleasant to us,
Hell is attached to things flattering our lusts.
The same lament of Moses is that of mankind. As well, the angels also lament this condition. Why? We know that a third of heaven fell with Satan. Pride entered in. Like rebellious children, we now lament the question in our condition of forgetfulness: Why God? The answer should be making itself clear. If you have read with me so far, the answer is found within our own self and the key to the jail cell is in our hands.
Quit thy nurse, for she will lead thee astray.
Leave thy nurse on the dry land and push on,
Enter the ocean of real Being, like the ducks!
Though thy nurse may frighten thee away from water,
Do thou fear not, but haste on into the ocean!
Thou art a duck, and flourishest on land and water,
And dost not, like a domestic fowl, dig up the house.
Thou art a king of "the sons of Adam honored by God," l
And settest foot alike on sea and land;
For impress on thy mind, "We have carried them by sea,"
Before the words, "We have carried them by land."
The angels go not on dry land,
And the animals know nothing of the sea;
Thou in body art an animal, in thy soul an angel;
Hence thou goest both upon earth and on heaven."
Hence to outward view "He is a man like you," 2
While to his sharp-seeing heart "it hath been revealed."
His earthy form has fallen on earth,
His spirit revolving above highest heaven.
O boy, we are all of us waterfowl,
The sea knows full well our language.
Solomon 3 is, as it were, that sea, and we as the birds;
In Solomon we hold our course to eternity.
Along with Solomon plunge into the ocean, 4
Then, like David, the water will make us coats-of-mail.
In the Bible, Jesus was hopeful that his followers would soon get off the mothers milk and on to solid food. In the OP, recall that the calf ( you and I as new humans) were muzzled by Satan (Desire). We are now shown as children who desire more than what the nurse gives us. Leave the nurse and push on. Enter the ocean of real being. Remember earlier that the material world (Satan / Muzzle) is the illusion. The ocean around you is what comes next after baptism in the water and Spirit. Be a duck. A duck develops a coat-of-mail from the process and sheds water. A domestic foul soon digs up the house (Earth). Be a passerby as the Bible states. In reality, this is Rumi's statement to Adam. You are the KING of the Sons of Adam, honored by God.
Here, Rumi tells us the truth. We are both beast and divine. We are both. We are in the water and land both. One must be crossed to get to the other. No matter which you are on, you need to get to the other shore. Are you sharp enough to see this revealed? Matter falls to Earth. Involution is the Spirit descending. Our Spirit is in Heaven. The Matrix (womb) movie is a good analogy. Consider what the true Child of God is:
Matthew 18
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
If you have never read my threads, you may not understand what is stated here. God created us in an image. Look in a mirror. Is the image you or are you the one on the other side? If this is God's image here, where are you on the other side. As a Child of God, you are here by emotion, but there my reason and intellect (Nous). You are the Angel facing God. As you may see from the previous posts, you can also turn away.
Either way, God loves you.
Solomon is Wisdom. David is strength. How do you overcome? Dive in and be strong.
Calm seas do not make a strong sailor. Do you complain because it is so, or do you grow up and start swimming?
"There's no more brilliant light than that which follows complete darkness."
And say, 'Ah! my prayers are as defective as my being;
O requite me good for evil!'"
Moses questions God as to the reason of
the flourishing state of the wicked.
Moses said, "O beneficent Creator,
With whom a moment's remembrance is as long ages,
I see Thy plan distorted in this world of earth and water;
My heart, like the angel's, feels a difficulty thereat.
With what object hast thou framed this plan,
And sowed therein the seeds of evil?
Why hast Thou kindled the fire of violence and wrong?
Why burnt up mosques and them who worship therein?
Paradise is attached to requirements unpleasant to us,
Hell is attached to things flattering our lusts.
The same lament of Moses is that of mankind. As well, the angels also lament this condition. Why? We know that a third of heaven fell with Satan. Pride entered in. Like rebellious children, we now lament the question in our condition of forgetfulness: Why God? The answer should be making itself clear. If you have read with me so far, the answer is found within our own self and the key to the jail cell is in our hands.
Quit thy nurse, for she will lead thee astray.
Leave thy nurse on the dry land and push on,
Enter the ocean of real Being, like the ducks!
Though thy nurse may frighten thee away from water,
Do thou fear not, but haste on into the ocean!
Thou art a duck, and flourishest on land and water,
And dost not, like a domestic fowl, dig up the house.
Thou art a king of "the sons of Adam honored by God," l
And settest foot alike on sea and land;
For impress on thy mind, "We have carried them by sea,"
Before the words, "We have carried them by land."
The angels go not on dry land,
And the animals know nothing of the sea;
Thou in body art an animal, in thy soul an angel;
Hence thou goest both upon earth and on heaven."
Hence to outward view "He is a man like you," 2
While to his sharp-seeing heart "it hath been revealed."
His earthy form has fallen on earth,
His spirit revolving above highest heaven.
O boy, we are all of us waterfowl,
The sea knows full well our language.
Solomon 3 is, as it were, that sea, and we as the birds;
In Solomon we hold our course to eternity.
Along with Solomon plunge into the ocean, 4
Then, like David, the water will make us coats-of-mail.
In the Bible, Jesus was hopeful that his followers would soon get off the mothers milk and on to solid food. In the OP, recall that the calf ( you and I as new humans) were muzzled by Satan (Desire). We are now shown as children who desire more than what the nurse gives us. Leave the nurse and push on. Enter the ocean of real being. Remember earlier that the material world (Satan / Muzzle) is the illusion. The ocean around you is what comes next after baptism in the water and Spirit. Be a duck. A duck develops a coat-of-mail from the process and sheds water. A domestic foul soon digs up the house (Earth). Be a passerby as the Bible states. In reality, this is Rumi's statement to Adam. You are the KING of the Sons of Adam, honored by God.
Here, Rumi tells us the truth. We are both beast and divine. We are both. We are in the water and land both. One must be crossed to get to the other. No matter which you are on, you need to get to the other shore. Are you sharp enough to see this revealed? Matter falls to Earth. Involution is the Spirit descending. Our Spirit is in Heaven. The Matrix (womb) movie is a good analogy. Consider what the true Child of God is:
Matthew 18
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
If you have never read my threads, you may not understand what is stated here. God created us in an image. Look in a mirror. Is the image you or are you the one on the other side? If this is God's image here, where are you on the other side. As a Child of God, you are here by emotion, but there my reason and intellect (Nous). You are the Angel facing God. As you may see from the previous posts, you can also turn away.
Either way, God loves you.
Solomon is Wisdom. David is strength. How do you overcome? Dive in and be strong.
Calm seas do not make a strong sailor. Do you complain because it is so, or do you grow up and start swimming?
"There's no more brilliant light than that which follows complete darkness."
reply to post by EnochWasRight
God's Words are neither temptation of boasting. Even division and evil serve God's purposes of good in the end
Yes, it is a dual world/reality
.
Time has no beginning or end in reality
Exactly... the mind is the builder and its outside of time. Love it!
God forgets our sins and gives us that sin (Sheep's wool) back as a new robe (Body in the next life) and Crown (Mind) from what we learn previously.
I could not have said it better. Its a beautiful thing, really. It doesn't make me so hard on myself. I will do my best though because at some point... I want to go to College, and then be set, roaming around at will experiencing that I want to experience. Maybe I am. Maybe we are, but it sure seems as though its only logical that we live in ignorance until we overcome it with wisdom.
At One Ment
The Ultimate love.
When we look in the mirror and know what we see, we finally see the face of God.
So true! ♥
"Whatsoever turneth from God is turned from Him." 11 Know the husband is reason, the wife lust and greed; She is vested with darkness and a gainsayer of reason. Learn now whence springs the root of this circumstance, From this, that the Whole has parts of divers kinds. These parts of the Whole are not parts in relation to it, Not in the way that rose's scent is a part of the rose.
I won't quote the whole thing above.. but the entire quote itself makes me feel like he was depressed, down and out about his girl and even talking abstinence. He is deep, but I love him.
The wife is desire for what is not at our disposal.
I imagine this above is how all men think... feel.. even today. Do they? I wish they wouldn't.
In our case, knowledge of God is the main thing we can possibly desire. Our desire is invested (involved) with the muzzle on the calf (Satan - Material shroud).
Our desires CAN come from the inspiration we feel and create in art of all forms including communication. There is an art to everything. I like it.. "Satan as a material shorud" way of thinking.... aka... ignorant does silent knowledge and or wisdom.
He is the sun of the spirit, not that of the sky, For from his light men and angels draw life. That sun is hidden in the form of a man,
In my daydreams (Im a Pisces), I imagine Jesus as the Sun, the giver of life who has the brightest light for us to live and experience life on Earth in this reality. The Sun is not so hidden in men, it just takes knowledge without ignorance to understand it. Its a constant battle to keep this in mind.
The Sun Rumi knows as the Son of God is not the sun at all. It's is the division of that first soul of Adam. Jesus is hidden in the foam
See? I didn't get that at all?? Explain in more detail and maybe I will see what you see.
Rumi Part 7
Hierarchy of Evolution.
The cow, whether it eats or sleeps,
Thinks of naught but sacrificing itself.
Know me to be that cow of Moses which gave its life,
Each part of me gives life to the righteous.
That cow of Moses was made a sacrifice,
And its least part became a source of life.
That murdered man leapt up from his deadness
At the words, ' Strike the corpse with part of her.' 4
O pious ones, slay the cow (of lust),
If ye desire true life of soul and spirit!
I died as inanimate matter and arose a plant,
I died as a plant and rose again an animal. 5
I died as an animal and arose a man.
Why then should I fear to become less by dying?
I shall die once again as a man
To rise an angel perfect from head to foot!
Again when I suffer dissolution as an angel,
I shall become what passes the conception of man!
From a previous post, we see that God is the OX. In the Hebrew language, the Aleph is the ox. The Bet is the tent opening. Put them together and you get the strength of the house. Earth is our house and the Lord is it's Father, Adam. Aleph and Bet - Evidence of a connection to Rumi and God's mystery revealed.
We are the calves. The Cow, whether it eats or sleeps, thinks of naught but sacrificing itself. The Son sacrificed himself at the beginning of time for us. The cross of Christ is merely the symbol for this in the first century. Form one comes many. Adam was the Father (OX) and we are the calves in the wilderness feeding on the land. As we found earlier, the cow of lust is the material world. Get rid of lust and serve others in place of the material world. This is how you pass form water (Baptism in the material world) to life in the Spirit. From this, there is a progression.
Death moves the first soul to the material world. Evolution of Spirit makes the plants first, then the animals, then the man. From the man, we transition back to where we started as divine (Angel). After becoming a messenger to God, we pass the message on and pass any conception we may have of this present reality.
Hierarchy of Evolution.
The cow, whether it eats or sleeps,
Thinks of naught but sacrificing itself.
Know me to be that cow of Moses which gave its life,
Each part of me gives life to the righteous.
That cow of Moses was made a sacrifice,
And its least part became a source of life.
That murdered man leapt up from his deadness
At the words, ' Strike the corpse with part of her.' 4
O pious ones, slay the cow (of lust),
If ye desire true life of soul and spirit!
I died as inanimate matter and arose a plant,
I died as a plant and rose again an animal. 5
I died as an animal and arose a man.
Why then should I fear to become less by dying?
I shall die once again as a man
To rise an angel perfect from head to foot!
Again when I suffer dissolution as an angel,
I shall become what passes the conception of man!
From a previous post, we see that God is the OX. In the Hebrew language, the Aleph is the ox. The Bet is the tent opening. Put them together and you get the strength of the house. Earth is our house and the Lord is it's Father, Adam. Aleph and Bet - Evidence of a connection to Rumi and God's mystery revealed.
We are the calves. The Cow, whether it eats or sleeps, thinks of naught but sacrificing itself. The Son sacrificed himself at the beginning of time for us. The cross of Christ is merely the symbol for this in the first century. Form one comes many. Adam was the Father (OX) and we are the calves in the wilderness feeding on the land. As we found earlier, the cow of lust is the material world. Get rid of lust and serve others in place of the material world. This is how you pass form water (Baptism in the material world) to life in the Spirit. From this, there is a progression.
Death moves the first soul to the material world. Evolution of Spirit makes the plants first, then the animals, then the man. From the man, we transition back to where we started as divine (Angel). After becoming a messenger to God, we pass the message on and pass any conception we may have of this present reality.
reply to post by MamaJ
The ocean is God. The foam is the sea of nations as they are tossed about on the shores. The foam is the body of Christ in multiplicity. It returns to the sea eventually. The waves crash to the shore to grind the rocks. Again, we are a part of the whole in nature.
The Sun Rumi knows as the Son of God is not the sun at all. It's is the division of that first soul of Adam. Jesus is hidden in the foam
See? I didn't get that at all?? Explain in more detail and maybe I will see what you see.
The ocean is God. The foam is the sea of nations as they are tossed about on the shores. The foam is the body of Christ in multiplicity. It returns to the sea eventually. The waves crash to the shore to grind the rocks. Again, we are a part of the whole in nature.
reply to post by EnochWasRight
Where does pride come from? Ignorance.
I agree. Anything that is of inspiration is that from the creative force. Within! It creates love like a never ending wave in the ocean.
The inspiration in these verses is the same thing you are doing with your own words as you have been inspired to write your thoughts from the spirit but you have conveyed poetry. Poetry that comes from the heart of men... such inspiration is inspiring. I just learned what inspire means in Latin. To breathe. Inhale and exhale. That is where our constant breath comes from. It comes from God's inspiration.
Again, a dual reference.
We are here from inspiration that came from the creator. There its all about knowing (Nous). We are facing God in the mirror. Its crazy when you really think about it. lol But its true, from my pov.
Either way, you are loved, we are loved.
We know that a third of heaven fell with Satan. Pride entered in.
Where does pride come from? Ignorance.
the answer is found within our own self
I agree. Anything that is of inspiration is that from the creative force. Within! It creates love like a never ending wave in the ocean.
The inspiration in these verses is the same thing you are doing with your own words as you have been inspired to write your thoughts from the spirit but you have conveyed poetry. Poetry that comes from the heart of men... such inspiration is inspiring. I just learned what inspire means in Latin. To breathe. Inhale and exhale. That is where our constant breath comes from. It comes from God's inspiration.
e are both beast and divine. We are both
Again, a dual reference.
As a Child of God, you are here by emotion, but there my reason and intellect (Nous). You are the Angel facing God. As you may see from the previous posts, you can also turn away. Either way, God loves you.
We are here from inspiration that came from the creator. There its all about knowing (Nous). We are facing God in the mirror. Its crazy when you really think about it. lol But its true, from my pov.
Either way, you are loved, we are loved.
reply to post by EnochWasRight
Death moves the first soul to the material world. Evolution of Spirit makes the plants first, then the animals, then the man. From the man, we transition back to where we started as divine (Angel). After becoming a messenger to God, we pass the message on and pass any conception we may have of this present reality.
Seems to be the nature of all things.
RUMI Part 8
This is one of my favorite passages. It's so full of meaning.
Though philosophers call man the microcosm, divines call him the macrocosm.
In outward form thou art the microcosm,
But in reality the macrocosm. 4
Seemingly the bough is the cause of the fruit, 5
But really the bough exists because of the fruit.
Were he not impelled by desire of fruit,
The gardener would never have planted the tree.
Do you get it? This is so pregnant with meaning, and oddly enough, what comes from the pregnancy is the very meaning of what is said. Is the acorn the enfolded 75 foot oak tree? Is the oak tree the acorn? No. The Word (DNA) makes both. The same is true for what Rumi is saying here. What is the fruit for God? The same as for us if we serve others. Love is the key to giving. What is given cannot be gained apart from the gardener using the hoe.
Therefore in reality the tree is born from the fruit,
Though seemingly the fruit is born from the tree.
For this cause Mustafa said, "Adam and all prophets
Are my followers and gather under my standard.
Though to outward view I am a son of Adam,
In reality I am his first forefather,
Because the angels worshipped him for my sake,
And 'twas in my footsteps that he ascended to heaven.
You see, the Islamic Rumi knows Christ and the purpose for him. We can see here that Rumi knows the meaning of Adam and the nature of the cross. All of humanity is the forefather's of the last Adam (Jesus). Did Rumi know this? What if the entire Islamic world read their own Sufi's words?
1 Corinthians 15
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.
Hence in reality our first parent was my offspring,
As in reality the tree is born of its own fruit."
What is first in thought is last in act.
Thought is the special attribute of the Eternal.
This product goes forth from heaven very swiftly,
And comes to us like a caravan. 6
'Tis not a long road that this caravan travels;
Can the desert stop the deliverer?
No, it can't. Rumi knows Christ. What can you know by seeing what he shows us all?
This is one of my favorite passages. It's so full of meaning.
Though philosophers call man the microcosm, divines call him the macrocosm.
In outward form thou art the microcosm,
But in reality the macrocosm. 4
Seemingly the bough is the cause of the fruit, 5
But really the bough exists because of the fruit.
Were he not impelled by desire of fruit,
The gardener would never have planted the tree.
Do you get it? This is so pregnant with meaning, and oddly enough, what comes from the pregnancy is the very meaning of what is said. Is the acorn the enfolded 75 foot oak tree? Is the oak tree the acorn? No. The Word (DNA) makes both. The same is true for what Rumi is saying here. What is the fruit for God? The same as for us if we serve others. Love is the key to giving. What is given cannot be gained apart from the gardener using the hoe.
Therefore in reality the tree is born from the fruit,
Though seemingly the fruit is born from the tree.
For this cause Mustafa said, "Adam and all prophets
Are my followers and gather under my standard.
Though to outward view I am a son of Adam,
In reality I am his first forefather,
Because the angels worshipped him for my sake,
And 'twas in my footsteps that he ascended to heaven.
You see, the Islamic Rumi knows Christ and the purpose for him. We can see here that Rumi knows the meaning of Adam and the nature of the cross. All of humanity is the forefather's of the last Adam (Jesus). Did Rumi know this? What if the entire Islamic world read their own Sufi's words?
1 Corinthians 15
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.
Hence in reality our first parent was my offspring,
As in reality the tree is born of its own fruit."
What is first in thought is last in act.
Thought is the special attribute of the Eternal.
This product goes forth from heaven very swiftly,
And comes to us like a caravan. 6
'Tis not a long road that this caravan travels;
Can the desert stop the deliverer?
No, it can't. Rumi knows Christ. What can you know by seeing what he shows us all?
edit on 21-2-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)
Rumi Part 9
Ho! pious ones, build the lively temple of the heart,
That the Divine Solomon may be seen, and peace be upon you!
And if your demons and fairies be recalcitrant,
Your good angels must place collars on their necks.
If your demons go astray through guile and fraud,
Chastisement must overtake them swift as lightning.
Be like Solomon, so that your demons
May dig stones for your spiritual edifice.
Where should we be building the Temple? The Masons build the Temple of Earth as their great work. Mankind lives in this temple built by human hands. The cornerstone of this temple is Christ (Giving). Do the builders take? Some do and some do not. Solomon is wisdom. Recalcitrant is rebellious. Use what is good in your heart to subdue emotion with intellect. If you defraud humanity, you will suffer the fire. Be wise. Let your work here reveal emeralds for you above.
Make sacrifice of reason to love of "The Friend,"
True reason is to be found where He is.
Men of wisdom direct their reason heavenwards,
Vain babblers halt on earth where no "Friend" is.
If through bewilderment your reason quits your head,
Every hair of your head becomes true reason and a head.
Then follow commentaries on the text, "O thou enfolded in thy mantle;" 34 on the proverb, "Silence is the proper answer to a fool;" on the Hadis, "God created the angels with reason and the brutes with lust, but man he created with both reason and lust; the man who follows reason is higher than the angels, and the man who follows lust is lower than the brutes;" on the text, "As to those in whose heart is a disease, it will add doubt to their doubt, and they shall die infidels," 35 and a comparison of the struggle between reason and lust to that between Majnun and his she-camel, he trying to get to his mistress Laila, and the she-camel trying to run home to her foal.
Men of true reason see the true friend above. Vain babblers see no friend. You will never reason God as fact. Faith is the key. You know this inwardly, but the outer reason tells you that the muzzle of the calf is what you must suffer. Here again, we see the duality of mankind as our superior nature to learn from hardship and lack. For more on this, consult the initial story told at the head of book 4.
He illustrates this by the reply made to the angel Gabriel by Abraham when he was cast into the fire by Nimrod. 4 Gabriel asked him if he could assist him, and Abraham answered, "No! I have no need of your help." When one has attained union with God he has no need of intermediaries.
When a child of God is no longer a child, He sees God face to face. Faith in God is knowing he is faithful to his loved one. Again, facing God is necessary. Read previous posts for this fact.
1 Corinthians 13
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Rumi is an Islamic Sufi. He knows the truth of this message.
The angel Gabriel appears to the Prophet Muhammad.
Mustafa said to the angel Gabriel,
"O friend, show me thy form as it really is;
Show it to me openly and perceptibly,
That I may behold thee with my eyes."
Gabriel said, "Thou canst not do so, thou art too weak,
Thy senses are exceeding weak and frail."
Muhammad said, "Show it, that this body of mine may see
To what extent its senses are frail and impotent.
True, man's bodily senses are frail,
But he possesses within him a mighty property. 5
This body resembles flint and steel,
But like them it has the power of kindling fire.
Flint and steel are able to generate fire,
From them springs fire which can destroy its parents."
Flint an steel are the animal and the soul. Both are hard, but together, they kindle what the Angel is made from. Fire is the key to what Rumi was asking to be revealed by the Angel.
Ho! pious ones, build the lively temple of the heart,
That the Divine Solomon may be seen, and peace be upon you!
And if your demons and fairies be recalcitrant,
Your good angels must place collars on their necks.
If your demons go astray through guile and fraud,
Chastisement must overtake them swift as lightning.
Be like Solomon, so that your demons
May dig stones for your spiritual edifice.
Where should we be building the Temple? The Masons build the Temple of Earth as their great work. Mankind lives in this temple built by human hands. The cornerstone of this temple is Christ (Giving). Do the builders take? Some do and some do not. Solomon is wisdom. Recalcitrant is rebellious. Use what is good in your heart to subdue emotion with intellect. If you defraud humanity, you will suffer the fire. Be wise. Let your work here reveal emeralds for you above.
Make sacrifice of reason to love of "The Friend,"
True reason is to be found where He is.
Men of wisdom direct their reason heavenwards,
Vain babblers halt on earth where no "Friend" is.
If through bewilderment your reason quits your head,
Every hair of your head becomes true reason and a head.
Then follow commentaries on the text, "O thou enfolded in thy mantle;" 34 on the proverb, "Silence is the proper answer to a fool;" on the Hadis, "God created the angels with reason and the brutes with lust, but man he created with both reason and lust; the man who follows reason is higher than the angels, and the man who follows lust is lower than the brutes;" on the text, "As to those in whose heart is a disease, it will add doubt to their doubt, and they shall die infidels," 35 and a comparison of the struggle between reason and lust to that between Majnun and his she-camel, he trying to get to his mistress Laila, and the she-camel trying to run home to her foal.
Men of true reason see the true friend above. Vain babblers see no friend. You will never reason God as fact. Faith is the key. You know this inwardly, but the outer reason tells you that the muzzle of the calf is what you must suffer. Here again, we see the duality of mankind as our superior nature to learn from hardship and lack. For more on this, consult the initial story told at the head of book 4.
He illustrates this by the reply made to the angel Gabriel by Abraham when he was cast into the fire by Nimrod. 4 Gabriel asked him if he could assist him, and Abraham answered, "No! I have no need of your help." When one has attained union with God he has no need of intermediaries.
When a child of God is no longer a child, He sees God face to face. Faith in God is knowing he is faithful to his loved one. Again, facing God is necessary. Read previous posts for this fact.
1 Corinthians 13
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Rumi is an Islamic Sufi. He knows the truth of this message.
The angel Gabriel appears to the Prophet Muhammad.
Mustafa said to the angel Gabriel,
"O friend, show me thy form as it really is;
Show it to me openly and perceptibly,
That I may behold thee with my eyes."
Gabriel said, "Thou canst not do so, thou art too weak,
Thy senses are exceeding weak and frail."
Muhammad said, "Show it, that this body of mine may see
To what extent its senses are frail and impotent.
True, man's bodily senses are frail,
But he possesses within him a mighty property. 5
This body resembles flint and steel,
But like them it has the power of kindling fire.
Flint and steel are able to generate fire,
From them springs fire which can destroy its parents."
Flint an steel are the animal and the soul. Both are hard, but together, they kindle what the Angel is made from. Fire is the key to what Rumi was asking to be revealed by the Angel.
Book V - Rumi Continued
When the Almighty determined to create mankind to be proved by good and evil, He deputed the angel Gabriel to bring a handful of earth for the purpose of forming Adam's body. Gabriel accordingly girded his loins and proceeded to the Earth to execute the divine commands. But the Earth, being apprehensive that the man so created would rebel against God and draw down God's curse upon her, remonstrated with Gabriel, and besought him to forbear. She represented that Gabriel would at the last day be pre-eminent over all the eight angels who would then support the throne, 1 and that it therefore was only right that he should prefer mercy to judgment. At last Gabriel granted her prayer, and returned to heaven without taking the handful of earth. Then God deputed Michael on the same errand, and the Earth made similar excuses to him, and he also listened to her crying, and returned to heaven without taking a handful. He excused himself to the Almighty by citing the example of the people to whom the prophet Jonah was sent, who were delivered from the threatened penalty in consequence of their lamentation for their sins; 2 and the text, "If He please, He will deliver you from that which ye shall cry to Him to avert." 3 Then God sent the angel Israfil on the same errand, and he also was diverted from the execution of it by a divine intimation. At last God sent 'Izrail, the angel of death, who, being of sterner disposition than the others, resolutely shut his ears to the Earth's entreaties, and brought back the required handful of earth. The Earth pressed him with the argument that God's command to bear away a handful of her substance against her will did not override the other divine command to take pity on suppliants; but 'Izrail would not listen to her, remarking that, according to the canons of theological interpretation, it was not allowable to have recourse to analogical reasoning to evade a plain and categorical injunction. He added, that in executing this injunction, painful though it might be, he was to be regarded only as a spear in the hand of the Almighty. The moral is, that when any of God's creatures do us a harm, we ought to regard them only as instruments of God, who is the Only Real Agent.
I won't go into much commentary here, but consult this thread for more: Description of the two Angels of Darkenss and Light from the Dead Sea Scrolls.
On the return of 'Izrail to heaven with the handful of earth, God said he would make him the angel of death. 'Izrail represented that this would make him very hateful to men; but God said 'Izrail would operate by disease and sickness, and men would not look for any cause beyond these diseases, according to the text, "He is nearer to you than ye are; yet ye see Him not." 4 Moreover, death is in reality a boon to the spiritual, and it is only fools who cry, "Would that this world might endure for ever, and that there were no such thing as death!"
Death is gain, for "God will change their evil things into good things." 5
One said, "The world would be a pleasant place
If death never set foot within it."
Another answered, "If there were no death,
The complicated world would be worth not a jot.
It would be a crop raised in a desert,
Left neglected and never threshed out.
Thou fanciest that to be death, which is life,
Thou sowest thy seed in salt ground.
Carnal reason deceives us; do thou contradict it,
For that fool takes what is really death to be life.
O God, show us all things in this house of deception,
Show them all as they really are!"
Can you see Rumi's true desire for mankind?
When the Almighty determined to create mankind to be proved by good and evil, He deputed the angel Gabriel to bring a handful of earth for the purpose of forming Adam's body. Gabriel accordingly girded his loins and proceeded to the Earth to execute the divine commands. But the Earth, being apprehensive that the man so created would rebel against God and draw down God's curse upon her, remonstrated with Gabriel, and besought him to forbear. She represented that Gabriel would at the last day be pre-eminent over all the eight angels who would then support the throne, 1 and that it therefore was only right that he should prefer mercy to judgment. At last Gabriel granted her prayer, and returned to heaven without taking the handful of earth. Then God deputed Michael on the same errand, and the Earth made similar excuses to him, and he also listened to her crying, and returned to heaven without taking a handful. He excused himself to the Almighty by citing the example of the people to whom the prophet Jonah was sent, who were delivered from the threatened penalty in consequence of their lamentation for their sins; 2 and the text, "If He please, He will deliver you from that which ye shall cry to Him to avert." 3 Then God sent the angel Israfil on the same errand, and he also was diverted from the execution of it by a divine intimation. At last God sent 'Izrail, the angel of death, who, being of sterner disposition than the others, resolutely shut his ears to the Earth's entreaties, and brought back the required handful of earth. The Earth pressed him with the argument that God's command to bear away a handful of her substance against her will did not override the other divine command to take pity on suppliants; but 'Izrail would not listen to her, remarking that, according to the canons of theological interpretation, it was not allowable to have recourse to analogical reasoning to evade a plain and categorical injunction. He added, that in executing this injunction, painful though it might be, he was to be regarded only as a spear in the hand of the Almighty. The moral is, that when any of God's creatures do us a harm, we ought to regard them only as instruments of God, who is the Only Real Agent.
I won't go into much commentary here, but consult this thread for more: Description of the two Angels of Darkenss and Light from the Dead Sea Scrolls.
On the return of 'Izrail to heaven with the handful of earth, God said he would make him the angel of death. 'Izrail represented that this would make him very hateful to men; but God said 'Izrail would operate by disease and sickness, and men would not look for any cause beyond these diseases, according to the text, "He is nearer to you than ye are; yet ye see Him not." 4 Moreover, death is in reality a boon to the spiritual, and it is only fools who cry, "Would that this world might endure for ever, and that there were no such thing as death!"
Death is gain, for "God will change their evil things into good things." 5
One said, "The world would be a pleasant place
If death never set foot within it."
Another answered, "If there were no death,
The complicated world would be worth not a jot.
It would be a crop raised in a desert,
Left neglected and never threshed out.
Thou fanciest that to be death, which is life,
Thou sowest thy seed in salt ground.
Carnal reason deceives us; do thou contradict it,
For that fool takes what is really death to be life.
O God, show us all things in this house of deception,
Show them all as they really are!"
Can you see Rumi's true desire for mankind?
Book 5 Continued... RUMI
Like the thought of an architect realized in a house,
Or the perfect plant issuing from the seed in the ground.
From onion and saffron and poppy
The hand of spring will unfold the secret of winter.
This one will be verdant and flourish, saying, "We are the pious;"
That other will hang his head like the violet,
With tears starting from his eyes through deadly fear;
Yea, tens of founts of tears through terrible dread;
With eyes wide opened in deadly apprehension
Lest his book may be placed in his left hand.
Then will the evildoer be sent to the fiery prison,
For thorn can in no wise escape the flame.
When his guardian angels behind and before,
Who before were unseen, shall appear like patrols,
They will hurry him off, pricking him with their spears,
And saying, "O dog, begone to thy kennel!"
Then the prisoner will cry, "O Lord, I am a hundred,
Yea, a hundred times as wicked as Thou sayest.
But in mercy Thou veilest my sins,
Otherwise my vileness were known to Thy all-seeing eye.
Where do I begin with this one? What is the secret of winter, when all seems dead? Spring brings new life. Baptism is our immersion into the waters of life. We then rise to new life after the winter of our death. The book in question is the book of life. It records our deeds. Some will rejoice in their work. Some will learn from their own dread when perfect love is seen clearly.
When Christ says, "Well done," we pass from this life. When he says, "Be gone," we return. The fires of hell may very well be right here and now for some. Is there a literal hell? Read on.
What does it mean that God veils our sins? Do you remember your previous life or any contact you have every had with God face to face? The material world is the muzzle. Satan is the desire to be here instead of with God. You make the choice now. Later, that choice is reviewed. You are once again a child learning. The Father sees you INSIDE the image of the SON. This is what it means to repent in the waters of baptism. God sees His Son and no you.
But, independently of my own works and warfare,
Independently of my faith or unfaith, good or evil,
Independently of my poor devotion to Thee,
And of my thoughts and the thoughts of hundreds like me,
I fix my hopes on Thy mercy alone.
Whether Thou adjudge me upright or rebellious,
I sue for free pardon from Thy unbought justice.
O Lord, who art gracious without thought of consequence,
I set my face towards that free grace of Thine;
I have no regard to my own acts.
I set my face towards this hope,
Seeing that Thou gayest me my being first of all;
Thou gayest me the garment of being unasked,
Wherefore I firmly trust in Thy free grace.
When he thus enumerates his sins and faults,
God at last will grant him pardon as a free gift,
Saying, "O angels, bring him back to me,
Since the eyes of his heart were set on hope,
Without care for consequences I set him free,
And draw the pen through the record of his sins!"
Is it possible Rumi is the key to understanding the Bible? I have often thought so. Did Rumi know God's free grace in the Son? YES!!!! I love his term, "The garment of being unasked." When we finally put our trust in God, he calls his Angels to take us home. He grants Amnesty.
Amni - Waters of life
Amnio - Boul or Lamb's blood.
Amnion - Sac in the mothers womb holding the Amniotic Fluid.
Amniotic Fluid - Protection in the water.
Amnesia - Condition of the mind in the water. Forgetfulness.
Amnesty - Forgiveness in the foreign land.
The sheep have the wool pulled over their eyes. The wool is sheered. The wool (Sin) is then given back as a new robe.
Rumi knew this. So did the Greeks, who also knew the Logos. WORD!
Like the thought of an architect realized in a house,
Or the perfect plant issuing from the seed in the ground.
From onion and saffron and poppy
The hand of spring will unfold the secret of winter.
This one will be verdant and flourish, saying, "We are the pious;"
That other will hang his head like the violet,
With tears starting from his eyes through deadly fear;
Yea, tens of founts of tears through terrible dread;
With eyes wide opened in deadly apprehension
Lest his book may be placed in his left hand.
Then will the evildoer be sent to the fiery prison,
For thorn can in no wise escape the flame.
When his guardian angels behind and before,
Who before were unseen, shall appear like patrols,
They will hurry him off, pricking him with their spears,
And saying, "O dog, begone to thy kennel!"
Then the prisoner will cry, "O Lord, I am a hundred,
Yea, a hundred times as wicked as Thou sayest.
But in mercy Thou veilest my sins,
Otherwise my vileness were known to Thy all-seeing eye.
Where do I begin with this one? What is the secret of winter, when all seems dead? Spring brings new life. Baptism is our immersion into the waters of life. We then rise to new life after the winter of our death. The book in question is the book of life. It records our deeds. Some will rejoice in their work. Some will learn from their own dread when perfect love is seen clearly.
When Christ says, "Well done," we pass from this life. When he says, "Be gone," we return. The fires of hell may very well be right here and now for some. Is there a literal hell? Read on.
What does it mean that God veils our sins? Do you remember your previous life or any contact you have every had with God face to face? The material world is the muzzle. Satan is the desire to be here instead of with God. You make the choice now. Later, that choice is reviewed. You are once again a child learning. The Father sees you INSIDE the image of the SON. This is what it means to repent in the waters of baptism. God sees His Son and no you.
But, independently of my own works and warfare,
Independently of my faith or unfaith, good or evil,
Independently of my poor devotion to Thee,
And of my thoughts and the thoughts of hundreds like me,
I fix my hopes on Thy mercy alone.
Whether Thou adjudge me upright or rebellious,
I sue for free pardon from Thy unbought justice.
O Lord, who art gracious without thought of consequence,
I set my face towards that free grace of Thine;
I have no regard to my own acts.
I set my face towards this hope,
Seeing that Thou gayest me my being first of all;
Thou gayest me the garment of being unasked,
Wherefore I firmly trust in Thy free grace.
When he thus enumerates his sins and faults,
God at last will grant him pardon as a free gift,
Saying, "O angels, bring him back to me,
Since the eyes of his heart were set on hope,
Without care for consequences I set him free,
And draw the pen through the record of his sins!"
Is it possible Rumi is the key to understanding the Bible? I have often thought so. Did Rumi know God's free grace in the Son? YES!!!! I love his term, "The garment of being unasked." When we finally put our trust in God, he calls his Angels to take us home. He grants Amnesty.
Amni - Waters of life
Amnio - Boul or Lamb's blood.
Amnion - Sac in the mothers womb holding the Amniotic Fluid.
Amniotic Fluid - Protection in the water.
Amnesia - Condition of the mind in the water. Forgetfulness.
Amnesty - Forgiveness in the foreign land.
The sheep have the wool pulled over their eyes. The wool is sheered. The wool (Sin) is then given back as a new robe.
Rumi knew this. So did the Greeks, who also knew the Logos. WORD!
edit on 21-2-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)
Book 6 and the Final Post of the Poetry of Rumi
When knowledge is lacking in a man s nature,
His soul is like a stone on the plain.
Primal Soul is the theatre of God's court,
Soul of souls the exhibition of God Himself.
All the angels were pure reason and soul,
Yet when the new soul of Adam came, they were as its body.
When in joy they crowded round that new soul, 4
They bowed before it as body does before soul.
Fear of men's censure the greatest obstacle to acceptance of the true faith.
Have you ever seen the stones of death valley?
The Son of God (First Soul and Adam) is a theater in God's court. God, as it turns out, is with us every step. Are the Angels us? Did we fall from heaven here willingly? Fear of others keeps us from seeing that we are all one.
Why the answer to prayer is delayed.
Ah! many earnest suppliants wail forth prayers,
Till the smoke of their wailing rises to heaven;
Yea, the perfume of the incense of sinners' groans
Mounts up above the lofty roof of heaven.
Then the angels supplicate God, saying,
"O Thou that hearest prayer and relievest pain,
Thy faithful slave is bowing down before Thee.
He knows of none on whom to rely save Thee;
Thou bestowest favors on the helpless.
Every suppliant obtains his desire from Thee."
God makes answer, "The delay in granting his prayer
Is intended to benefit him, not to harm him.
His pressing need draws him from his negligence to me;
Yea, drags him by the hair into my courts.
If I at once remove his need he will go away,
And will be destroyed in his idle sports.
Though he is wailing with heartfelt cry of 'O Aider!'
Bid him wail on with broken heart and contrite breast.
His voice sounds sweet in my ears,
And his wailing and cries of' O God!'
In this way by supplication and lamentation
He prevails with me altogether."
God's victory is also shared with us as we overcome. We are the stones moved in the wilderness.
Did Rumi show you the victory you will one day experience? God loves you and has mercy on all mankind. We simply need to reach out our hands to receive what was there all along. We are children of God until we are no longer children.
Acts 17
24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
Did Paul and Rumi know the same God?
End of Rumi Thread - Angels Thread 1.
When knowledge is lacking in a man s nature,
His soul is like a stone on the plain.
Primal Soul is the theatre of God's court,
Soul of souls the exhibition of God Himself.
All the angels were pure reason and soul,
Yet when the new soul of Adam came, they were as its body.
When in joy they crowded round that new soul, 4
They bowed before it as body does before soul.
Fear of men's censure the greatest obstacle to acceptance of the true faith.
Have you ever seen the stones of death valley?
The Son of God (First Soul and Adam) is a theater in God's court. God, as it turns out, is with us every step. Are the Angels us? Did we fall from heaven here willingly? Fear of others keeps us from seeing that we are all one.
Why the answer to prayer is delayed.
Ah! many earnest suppliants wail forth prayers,
Till the smoke of their wailing rises to heaven;
Yea, the perfume of the incense of sinners' groans
Mounts up above the lofty roof of heaven.
Then the angels supplicate God, saying,
"O Thou that hearest prayer and relievest pain,
Thy faithful slave is bowing down before Thee.
He knows of none on whom to rely save Thee;
Thou bestowest favors on the helpless.
Every suppliant obtains his desire from Thee."
God makes answer, "The delay in granting his prayer
Is intended to benefit him, not to harm him.
His pressing need draws him from his negligence to me;
Yea, drags him by the hair into my courts.
If I at once remove his need he will go away,
And will be destroyed in his idle sports.
Though he is wailing with heartfelt cry of 'O Aider!'
Bid him wail on with broken heart and contrite breast.
His voice sounds sweet in my ears,
And his wailing and cries of' O God!'
In this way by supplication and lamentation
He prevails with me altogether."
God's victory is also shared with us as we overcome. We are the stones moved in the wilderness.
Did Rumi show you the victory you will one day experience? God loves you and has mercy on all mankind. We simply need to reach out our hands to receive what was there all along. We are children of God until we are no longer children.
Acts 17
24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
Did Paul and Rumi know the same God?
End of Rumi Thread - Angels Thread 1.
I apologize for all the Angles where there should be Angels. Once it's done, I am now too late to edit. You forgive me, right? Isn't that the point
of the thread? Once it's done, we forget the errors and remember the good we gain along the path.
edit on 21-2-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)
reply to post by EnochWasRight
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
He is describing an evolving spirit. When he became a man he was no longer ignorant but wise to the wisdom he has learned from his spirit through the flesh.
I have always wanted to know myself as others know me... haven't you? Its the image you want to see at once.
Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by EnochWasRight
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
He is describing an evolving spirit. When he became a man he was no longer ignorant but wise to the wisdom he has learned from his spirit through the flesh.
I have always wanted to know myself as others know me... haven't you? Its the image you want to see at once.
That was fun. I can't believe that I did that in one sitting. It makes me want to jump right into Enoch. I really learned a lot from doing this. I have read Rumi poetry for years. I have a copy next to my bed. I pulled some things from this that I never realized before. I think I will do the same thing with the discourses of Rumi when I finish with the others.
Do you have any suggestions for other ancient books that speak of Angels? I plan to cover Enoch, The Virgin of the Earth, Jasher, Jubilees, Dhammapada and a few others. I am going to devote my threads to this for the next few weeks. When I am finished, I think there will be a common thread running the course.
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