North Korea threatens South with "final destruction" during UN meeting.

Well, it's not like this is a big surprise, but I'm starting to think the rhetoric is getting too serious. These guys are playing with fire.

(Reuters) - North Korea threatened South Korea with "final destruction" during a debate at the U.N Conference on Disarmament on Tuesday, saying it could take "second and third steps" after a nuclear test last week.

Source

"As the saying goes, a new-born puppy knows no fear of a tiger. South Korea's erratic behavior would only herald its final destruction," North Korean diplomat Jon Yong Ryong told the meeting.

Without specifically referring to the nuclear test, Jon said North Korea had recently taken a "resolute step for self-defence", which he described as "strong counter-actions to a foreign aggressor".

"If the U.S. takes a hostile approach toward the DPRK to the last, rendering the situation complicated, it (North Korea) will be left with no option but to take the second and third stronger steps in succession," he added, without elaborating.

I know that the usual wagon of "this is just NK using it's own mouth to spew hot air" is going to arrive very soon, and to be honest in the past I would also be one of the members stating as such.

But I'm starting to feel something different about North Korea. I'm not pro-war nor pro-conflict, and much less pro-nuclear confrontation and I don't have fantasies about doomsday. Usually, I prefer a more mundane and logical explanation or point of view, without any extreme/vague arguments.

However, little Kim seems to be a lot more bold than his father ever was. His father also played around with propaganda and rhetoric, making threats now and then. But I can't help to feel that his son is pumping a lot more air into his chest, and there are proofs of that.

He did defy the international community with the first failed launch of the "satellite", and he did the same thing twice by successfully launching - but not controlling - the second rocket.

On top of that, recently we had a nuclear test, and a rocket engine test. During the same week.

I hate to be the guy calling attention to a subject and putting and alarming light on it, but maybe we all should pay more attention to this.

I seriously hope this is not the time where the threats of North Korea aren't nothing more than hot air and propaganda...

Honestly, I can't take these guys serious anymore. Blah, blah, blah. I don't believe anything that comes from the mouths of North Korean officials.

Originally posted by concernedcitizen519
Honestly, I can't take these guys serious anymore. Blah, blah, blah. Wake me up when the missile's start flying 'cause I don't believe anything that comes from the mouths of North Korean officials.

I was on the same page as you... Until they carried out the third nuke test, along with the missile tests. The rhetoric has gotten worst, more direct and more severe. The part that concerns me is that they are taking huge leaps into becoming capable of accomplishing those threats.

You don't need to believe in their officials to know the nukes are real.

Related to this:

Russia opposes new economic sanctions on N. Korea

Moscow opposes new economic sanctions on North Korea but would be ready to back measures to limit nuclear proliferation, Deputy Foreign Minister Gennady Gatilov said on Tuesday. “Any additional measures of pressure on North Korea should be aimed exclusively at the sphere of non-proliferation of nuclear arms and rocket launches,” Gatilov told reporters. “We are against measures that would affect normal trade and economic relations with North Korea,” he said, adding that China has “similar views.” Pyongyang conducted a nuclear test last week, the third since 2006.

Source

North Korea will not make a move without the permission of China.

They had to ask Stalin permission for the first Korea war and he refused them for quite awhile until he eventually said they could. They know they need backing if they are going south so I would not pay any attention to their rhetoric or what they are doing with nuclear tests.

I would research China and see what their current stance is on South Korea and having done that myself, I see no indication they would support the North attacking the South.

Originally posted by Hopechest
North Korea will not make a move without the permission of China.

They had to ask Stalin permission for the first Korea war and he refused them for quite awhile until he eventually said they could. They know they need backing if they are going south so I would not pay any attention to their rhetoric or what they are doing with nuclear tests.

I would research China and see what their current stance is on South Korea and having done that myself, I see no indication they would support the North attacking the South.

I believe that China - along with Russia - stating they will not support any more sanctions against North Korea is a serious sign that things aren't really all that quiet.

First because that shows support to what North Korea is saying. Their point after all, is that the sanctions and oppression should be lifted.

Secondly, because it's a blow to U.S. decision and influence on the matter. If it's only the West moving forward with these sanctions, it could actually cause a political division.

Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandy

Originally posted by concernedcitizen519
Honestly, I can't take these guys serious anymore. Blah, blah, blah. Wake me up when the missile's start flying 'cause I don't believe anything that comes from the mouths of North Korean officials.

I was on the same page as you... Until they carried out the third nuke test, along with the missile tests. The rhetoric has gotten worst, more direct and more severe. The part that concerns me is that they are taking huge leaps into becoming capable of accomplishing those threats.

You don't need to believe in their officials to know the nukes are real.

Oh I believe the nukes are real, I'm just not convinced they'll use them. At least not just yet. It's all a ploy to get attention, and it's working (in a way). So what, North Korea tested 3 nukes over 6 + years? US has tested hundreds (and even on their own people) and is the only Country to use them on another Country.

Anyway, back to NK though. These tests; rockets and nukes, and threats, they're all to get attention from the world and it's working, although not in the way they want it to. They want the food aid, the technology advances, but they think threatening the world is the way to do this and they're clearly wrong. They KNOW that if they use a nuke they will be wiped off the map, unless they have consent and the backing of China (or Russia, or both) so they will not do so anytime soon, not until their survival is guaranteed.

It's more posturing, and nothing else until you see the missile's fly.

reply to post by GarrusVasNormandy


Its interesting to speculate about but you have to view it from a realist perspective.

What does China have to gain and what do they stand to lose by supporting an act of aggression against the South?

If America and the West leave South Korea and refuse to engage in military conflict they will still most certainly nail china with all kinds of sanctions. This would cripple the economy of China and I'm sure they remember how easily that 500 million upset people can topple a government.

I highly doubt they are going to risk their own economic survival for North Korea.

What do they stand to gain?

Well a direct confrontation with the West which sees the West backing down would legitimize them as a global power militarily which they currently are close too but have not really been tested in.

Would the economic losses be worth the change in power balance in the world?

I don't believe so at this point.

They are getting desperate for aid and don't want to lose face. So, they threaten and bluster to get aid in exchange for stepping down the attack posture.

reply to post by concernedcitizen519

So what, North Korea tested 3 nukes over 6 + years? US has tested hundreds (and even on their own people) and is the only Country to use them on another Country.

The U.S. improved their nukes with those tests, and so did the Soviets. That was mostly because of the arms race, and a show of power between the two of them. It was a matter of knowing that the other side had a more powerful punch.

That ended with the ban on testing, and the decision to lower the nuke stocks, and stop the tendency to increase them.

North Korea doesn't need that. They just need a functional nuke for their objectives.

These tests; rockets and nukes, and threats, they're all to get attention from the world and it's working, although not in the way they want it to. They want the food aid, the technology advances, but they think threatening the world is the way to do this and they're clearly wrong.

It was. I don't believe it still is.

I'm considering the fact that Kim is a young male with a lot to prove, exactly for the reasons many people mention. There is so much bluff that you can do, and it only works if people take it seriously.

Nobody - clearly - was taking them seriously for a long time, which raises the question if North Korea thinks it's worth it to just get on with it. They lost their credibility, and that loss could have a tremendous impact in the ego of a leader.

We can always hope and wish for the best, but I refuse to ignore the fact that human beings are prone to conflict by nature. All it takes is one wrong move, or one bad decision.

They KNOW that if they use a nuke they will be wiped off the map, unless they have consent and the backing of China (or Russia, or both) so they will not do so anytime soon, not until their survival is guaranteed.

Yes, but that's assuming North Korea actually gives a damn about what China thinks. After the test China was mildly severe with NK, but just a week after, NK is making even harsher provocations and threats.

Looking at how China is behaving with Japan, I'm not so sure we can rest the peace thoughts with China.

reply to post by GarrusVasNormandy


That isn't how I interpreted Russia's position above. They are against sanctions, but would agree with actions that focus specifically on those things that would stop, impede, retard, or address North Korea's nuclear proliferation.
I believe that article also said China feels the same way.

Nobody but Iran or terrorist groups wants NK with a nuke....The disagreement is about sanctions. China and Russia are not concerned about the "humanitarian" effects of sanctions, but the economic effects to each of them. They also don't want the U.S. to have a greater military presence in the region then they already do. Nobody likes North Korea. World War 3 will not begin over NK. There are no sides. Just issues about how to deal with them.

Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandy

They KNOW that if they use a nuke they will be wiped off the map, unless they have consent and the backing of China (or Russia, or both) so they will not do so anytime soon, not until their survival is guaranteed.

Yes, but that's assuming North Korea actually gives a damn about what China thinks.

Even if they didn't, I don't think lil' Kim is looking to be a martyr. Using a nuke would ensure the complete demise of the North Korean regime and I don't think Kim wants to be jobless, let alone dead.

reply to post by Hopechest

Its interesting to speculate about but you have to view it from a realist perspective.

I am being realistic. That's exactly why I'm not sweeping these developments under the table.

What does China have to gain and what do they stand to lose by supporting an act of aggression against the South?

That's up to China. They could see something in the horizon that we don't.

However, China doesn't need to endorse it. They just need to allow it to happen.

Although I agree that a conflict in China's doorstep isn't all that great, it could have it's positives. China would see first hand how the South Korea/U.S./allies act and fight, which would be greatly valuable in terms of intelligence gathering and study.

And let's not forget that the last thing the U.S. needs right now is another war. Not in terms of economic gains, but in terms of internal policy. The disgust for war has grown greatly in the past decades, and to start a war now, is to lose all political credibility.

That is a good point in favor of China. Even if they don't get involved, they get to see the U.S. getting dirty again.

If America and the West leave South Korea and refuse to engage in military conflict they will still most certainly nail china with all kinds of sanctions.

Why? China isn't threatening to attack South Korea. North Korea is. You can't place sanctions on a country because they are allied with another country that goes into war...

Especially when that country is called "China".

This would cripple the economy of China and I'm sure they remember how easily that 500 million upset people can topple a government.

Well, there were some harsh moments between Japan and China over some tiny islands that most people can't even remember about, and that only produced a severe nationalistic pride and rage inside both countries.

I don't think they would revolt against the government that led them through rough times into a new age of prosperity. People in China are starting to taste development, and they wouldn't risk it by going through a civil war or revolution.

Well a direct confrontation with the West which sees the West backing down would legitimize them as a global power militarily which they currently are close too but have not really been tested in.

I think you are assuming that China will get directly involved. There is no question the U.S. would race to help South Korea. The recent military maneuvers already show that with the US military power being shifted towards the Pacific. But I don't see China endorsing - at least in public - what North Korea could do, especially since it's so badly seen by the international community.

Would the economic losses be worth the change in power balance in the world?

Ask yourself this:

What has happened to the World since the U.S. - and it's allies - won World War II?

Going for a pun, "there can be only one" *kick the Highlander theme*. We saw that with the Cold War. And right now, China is rising and the US is declining.

reply to post by Res Ipsa

That isn't how I interpreted Russia's position above. They are against sanctions, but would agree with actions that focus specifically on those things that would stop, impede, retard, or address North Korea's nuclear proliferation.
I believe that article also said China feels the same way.

I'm not questioning that.

But people must realize that the whole reason behind North Korea posture, is due to the sanctions that were placed upon them. Russia and China rising and saying they will not support any more sanctions, validates the North Korean threats.

The ball just jumped at high speed to the West side. It's up to them to lead where this is going next, by the decisions they will make about imposing North Korea more sanctions.

Besides, neither Russia nor China enjoyed being ignored in Syria. I highly doubt they will stand for another episode of "the west does how it pleases" in North Korea.

China and Russia are not concerned about the "humanitarian" effects of sanctions, but the economic effects to each of them.

North Korea is an economic hole. They do have business relations that still go on, but the proof that those trades are just a drop in the ocean, is the misery North Korea still endures.

They are supporting influence. There are a lot more markets they could explore, with much more gain than North Korea.

They also don't want the U.S. to have a greater military presence in the region then they already do.

Yes, that's true. But it also means the U.S. would have yet another stage for war. Sadly, the military doesn't multiply like bunnies.

Nobody likes North Korea.

I agree. That's why I believe there are much stronger reasons behind all this, and the position of both Russia and China.

I've got $5 that says there will only be 7.5 million north Koreans left after this winter.

They don't have any food.

No oil...if they had oil they would be able to get fishing boats out to sea to get fish. Everyone's been overfishing all the waters near them so poor poor North Korea can't get food.

They could have built a massive nuclear reactored fishing vessel to be able to go out and get food.

Nope....instead they wasted their nuclear research on weapons....that ain't going to work out for them.

reply to post by GarrusVasNormandy


Your also assuming tht Lil' Kim is in control over there and that isn't the case. Hes still learning the ropes and is basically nothing more than a figurehead. The military is actually calling the shots and a lot of them are old school and realize what a war with the South would do.

Its unwinnable and they know it.

America would never allow the South to be overrun because of the Domino Theory and would make their stand there. If North Korea, with the aid of China, is allowed to take South Korea it would leave vulnerable all of Indochina as well as Southeast Asia.

reply to post by Hopechest

Your also assuming tht Lil' Kim is in control over there and that isn't the case.

Then you are defusing your own argument.

If Kim Jung-Un isn't in power, then why did North Korea change it's rhetoric and changed it's stand to a more aggressive posture?

The military leadership, apart from a minor - as in, a single officer - change, is the same. But you can also argue that those changes are the living proof that in fact, it is Kim Jung-Un who is controlling everything.

And if I may add, the changes that he made to his military hierarchy also reflect how much he controls his country. The international community flagged that move as a play to get rid of any opposition within the military.

Hes still learning the ropes and is basically nothing more than a figurehead.

If he was still learning the ropes, he wouldn't be the leader he is in North Korea. That time has long passed, and with all due respect, if you actually believe he is nothing more than a puppet, then you don't understand how the power works in North Korea.

The only thing that came close to his way of ruling, was the middle ages when we still had kingdoms all around...

He is in power, the only question that remains is how he uses that power.

The military is actually calling the shots and a lot of them are old school and realize what a war with the South would do.

This is why I stated that you defused your own argument.

If what you say is true - that Kim is just a puppet and the military has control - then how do you explain the fact that the North Korean stand has changed? If they are aware of the risks, then why are they risking so much? By your argument, North Korea would have settled down and calmed a little bit to give room for improvement.

They have done the opposite.

Its unwinnable and they know it.

Suicidal tendencies aren't anything new, either in a major or minor scale.

If Hitler can brainwash and lead a nation like Germany into World War 2, despite being in deep recession, then so could Kim with his overly oppressed society.

And to be quite honest, I wouldn't put my hands over fire to testify that a leader like Kim, in a country like North Korea, still has his mind in touch with reality.

In such a controlled country, it would be very easy for him to escape the country while giving the order to attack. If they actually succeed by a miracle, he would be there to benefit from it. If it doesn't... "hello political exile".

If North Korea, with the aid of China, is allowed to take South Korea it would leave vulnerable all of Indochina as well as Southeast Asia.

It would.

But you are seeing the Western side of it. Being vulnerable to whom? China. Which means, that China would be the power taking over those areas. Which they are not shy to state they want to...

reply to post by concernedcitizen519
And that is what DPRK wants, they want you too not see them, nor hear them, Just as you would pay no attention to a snakes rattler.

for the DPRK are warm fuzzy little creatures that mean no harm, do no test on Nukes nor missiles, for all you read and hear it is is all US/ Western propaganda.
DPRK has no dream of a one nation flag or country ,they made no video showing some US city getting bombed or nuked. They have made no threatening statements toward the south or the US. Believe this i Selle you some AZ pacific ocean front property.

reply to post by concernedcitizen519
then you need not read this www.kcna.co.jp... from the link

Officials in DPRK Vow to Achieve Victory in Decisive Battle with Enemies
Pyongyang, February 18 (KCNA) -- Officials of different social standings of the DPRK vowed to turn out in an all-out confrontation with hostile forces including the U.S., which is taking issue with the DPRK's measure for self-defense, and thus demonstrate the dignity and might of Songun Korea and achieve the victory without fail.

and if you should ask , what is shogun www.globalsecurity.org...

Even if it just silly talk, when does it get to the point where someone needs too put their foot down and say, 'cut the crap or we coming through and we damn serious!