Landowner asks $3.9M for part of Wounded Knee site

reply to post by ripcontrol


I read your post early this morning and, frankly, it has taken me the whole day to figure out just how to respond to it.

To you I will say how greatly disheartening it was that a fellow ATS member would preface their post with a statement that that post would be "neither kind nor ...appreciated." That preface came very close to being interpreted as "with malice aforethought."

Had you read the entire thread and the links provided, you would have seen that not only did you wrongfully accuse, but you called into question (with unwarranted derision) issues that had already been addressed in the thread.

It is my sincere hope that, perhaps, you were only in a bad mood when you made that post and that you will be nicer, gentler and more respectful to others having gotten it out of your system.

My kindest thoughts go out to you as I feel you need them.

reply to post by SeesFar


again with the issues over hurt feeling... you want me to bow then cry my heart out...




I know for a fact none of the issues I brought up have been addressed...

Just because your a tribal does not mean you all of a sudden wise and great.. touchy feely moment... the wise shaman... medicine man or chief...

You get really crappy leaders... deal with it... welcome to the human race


my fellow humans need to recognize this trend... but no you ignore the other points...

Why did it take one woman to lead the way through the darkness... and die valiantly in the night post great battle

I have an idea why not start leading yourselves... find those fights and fight them... why are you supposed to wait for the leaders.... your americans and that is not how we operate....

now... with that part that was not covered anywhere in the post lets us look at the next part not covered in any post


Fighting back...

ETJ- cities use it all the time

Mortgage Crisis- proof of original deed-- last I read they were deeded to the tribes....
their is a fight that can be created in there... but no just dismiss me because I did not couch them in eco-progressive-politically correct terms

Dead Bodies--
my understanding of laws...
human trafficking no alive status required
laws for dealing with bodies.... all it takes is one body...

Separation of church and State-
if they were holy ground the state cant sieze them.... unless the church or organization has entered into contract with the land as collateral... try state court
(remember the reverse erie doctrine....)


But no you decided you did not like the comment so everything else is trash... hence proving my point....over blindness to your own bigotry... the simple matter is that if it is so vaulable to you you will either pay it or lose out...

Still I am not you... I do not dismiss people or their ideas because I do not appreciate the attitude..

Potential charges to be charged against the owner... the tribe needs to make sure they record the conversation

Extortion- over a loved ones remains
Price Gouging- over cost
Theft-
Possession of Stolen Property- (are their not relics up their)


looking at the situation I see not good leaders but those that have people way astray....

In a couple of instances, your comments will be replied to out of sequence

Originally posted by ripcontrol
again with the issues over hurt feeling... you want me to bow then cry my heart out......Just because your a tribal does not mean you all of a sudden wise and great.. touchy feely moment... the wise shaman... medicine man or chief...You get really crappy leaders... deal with it... welcome to the human race

my fellow humans need to recognize this trend... but no you ignore the other points...

My feelings are not hurt, nor do I want you to "cry your heart out." It was my grossly erroneous conclusion that you must have been in a bad mood to have addressed someone so intentionally rudely - that was my mistake and I take ownership of it. In retrospect, I can clearly see that your preface of being "neither kind nor ... appreciated" was, indeed, a forewarning that you knowingly and intentionally phrased your post for the purpose of being insulting.

I wished for you to be educated but you seem to want no part of that and prefer to continue to publicly advertise your ignorance, instead.

"A tribal?" "wise shaman, medicine man or chief?" "(your) fellow humans need to recognize?" Did it take you so long to respond because you were considering which were the most insulting ethnic/racial/stereotyping slurs to use? Really, your “fellow humans?” Leaving Indians as what, please?

Originally posted by ripcontrol
I know for a fact none of the issues I brought up have been addressed

They were not addressed because not only were they irrelevant, they were so uninformed as to be laughable. To have addressed them would have been to take a risk of you publicly embarrassing yourself more than you already had. But it is now obvious that you insist upon it.

Originally posted by ripcontrol
Why did it take one woman to lead the way through the darkness... and die valiantly in the night post great battle

Because Tribes cannot sue the government without the permission of the BIA which IS the government.

While many modern courts in Indian nations today have established full faith and credit with state courts, the nations still have no direct access to U.S. courts. When an Indian nation files suit against a state in U.S. court, they do so with the approval of the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

And you even found an opportunity to throw in a sarcastic, demeaning statement by adding "and die valiantly in the night post great battle." Cobell WAS a valiant woman and she died from cancer. I'm sure your remark meant a lot to any friends/family members who might have read it.

Originally posted by ripcontrol
I have an idea why not start leading yourselves... find those fights and fight them... why are you supposed to wait for the leaders.... your americans and that is not how we operate

Refer again to the BIA

Originally posted by ripcontrol
now... with that part that was not covered anywhere in the post lets us look at the next part not covered in any post

At the risk of repeating myself, those matters were not addressed because (a) they were not on-topic and, more importantly, (b) to have addressed them would have highlighted your ignorance. However, since you insist ...

Originally posted by ripcontrol
ETJ- cities use it all the time

Because Reservations are not cities; they are domestic dependent nations – sometimes referred to as ‘semi-sovereign.’ ETJ is defined as " the legal ability of a government to exercise authority beyond its normal boundaries." Tribes cannot exercise anything beyond their alotted boundaries. If you knew as much as you'd like to think you do, you'd have known that.

Originally posted by ripcontrol
last I read they were deeded to the tribes.

Way to prove you've read nothing on the matter!

the government continues to oversee 55 million acres of land held in trust for Indians and tribes.

Notice "oversee" and "held in trust." One "oversees" the affairs of those who are considered incapable of overseeing their own affairs. "Held in trust" = there are no deeds and the government can change its mind any time it wants to about that. Example:

In essence, the act broke up the land of most all tribes into modest parcels to be distributed to Indian families, and those remaining were auctioned off to white purchasers. Indians who accepted the farmland and became "civilized" were made American citizens. But the Act itself proved disastrous for Indians, as much tribal land was lost and cultural traditions destroyed. Whites benefited the most; for example, when the government made 2 million acres (8,100 km2) of Indian lands available in Oklahoma, 50,000 white settlers poured in almost instantly to claim it all (in a period of one day, April 22, 1889).

Originally posted by ripcontrol
their is a fight that can be created in there... but no just dismiss me because I did not couch them in eco-progressive-politically correct terms

"eco-progressive-policitally correct terms?" "Insulting terms" would be far more appropriate. I did not dismiss your ignorance; I was appalled by it and asked you to learn something. You choose to remain in it and to advertise that choice ~ and seldom have I seen “deny ignorance” so blatantly cast aside

Originally posted by ripcontrol
my understanding of laws...

you might as well have finished with “…as same regards American Indians, Tribes and Reservations, is nil, at best.

Originally posted by ripcontrol
Dead Bodies--
human trafficking no alive status required
laws for dealing with bodies.... all it takes is one body...

Oh. Well, why didn’t I think of that? Why haven’t Tribal leaders thought of that? HOW could all those Indians BE so stupid all these years?!

Perhaps because others, like you demonstrated in your statement of “…(your) fellow humans…” don’t think of Indians as “humans,” as evidenced by this:

There is a legend at UC Berkeley that human bones are stored in the landmark Campanile tower. But university officials say that's not true.
The human bones are actually stored beneath the Hearst Gymnasium swimming pool.
The remains of about 12,000 Native Americans lie in drawers and cabinets in the gym's basement. Most of them were dug up by university archaeologists and have been stored under the pool since at least the early 1960s.

That’s right – TWELVE THOUSAND Native Americans lie in drawers. Under the swimming pool.

Or this:

Most scientists deny racism, noting that their collections often contain bones of whites, blacks and other ethnic groups in addition to those of Indians. Dr. Douglas H. Ubelaker, curator of the country's largest collection of human bones, at the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History in Washington, said the collection contains mostly Indian skeletons -14,000 of them - because the Smithsonian is an American museum, and Indians have populated the land for thousands of years.

FOURTEEN THOUSAND of our ancestors there.

And that’s just 2 places. Multiply that by the number of museums and Universities just in the U.S. and consider how many of our ancestors have been dug up.

And, just for comparison, we have this from that last article:

Referring to excavations at the Custer Battlefield National Park in Wyoming, she said, ''We see that the 7th Cavalry members were reburied with great care and sensitivity, and that their bones didn't have to be kept around for 200 years just because new technology might come around'' to aid in bone studies.
She cited another case in Iowa in which the bones of Indians whose names were known were placed on museum display for study, while the bones of whites found at the same site were reburied.

So, maybe … just MAYBE … that’s why no one other than you thinks Indian bodies make a difference and give some kind of legal footing. More pure ignorance and a demonstrated unwillingness on your part to research anything for yourself.

How many tens of thousands of our ancestors do you think need to be dug up, put in boxes and put on display before they have enough? Enough for WHAT?

Oh, to be fair, the article did mention some 3,000 have been allowed to be returned and reburied. I guess we’re to show undying gratitude for that?

How’d you like to walk into a museum and see your Grandmother’s bones proudly on display? Think how you could take the kiddies to visit Granny any time you wanted to.

What say we do like the lady in the article stated and dig up George Washington’s bones and display them? Or Abraham Lincoln’s or John F. Kennedy’s? That’d be a day, wouldn’t it? Think any of the Kennedys would mind? Or any of the ancestors of Washington or Lincoln?

Originally posted by ripcontrol
Separation of church and State-
if they were holy ground the state cant sieze them.... unless the church or organization has entered into contract with the land as collateral... try state court

No? Really? Refer again to just what the government can do to our ground whether or not it is holy. The Black Hills are very holy, which you’d’ve known if you’d read the thread. But that didn’t stop the government from taking them when gold was discovered and it didn’t stop them from defacing them by carving President’s faces in them.

Try learning the laws that are applicable to the situation before offering YOUR solutions.

Originally posted by ripcontrol
(remember the reverse erie doctrine....)

Refer yet again to BIA.

Originally posted by ripcontrol
But no you decided you did not like the comment so everything else is trash... hence proving my point....over blindness to your own bigotry... the simple matter is that if it is so vaulable to you you will either pay it or lose out.

Still I am not you... I do not dismiss people or their ideas because I do not appreciate the attitude..

My bigotry? You’re the one who made it clear you were trying to inform your “fellow humans.” How am I a bigot if I’m not even human?

It wasn’t a matter of “not liking” a comment; it was a matter of your displays of willful ignorance and a demonstrated unwillingness to learn. I naively thought if you were directed to read the thread and the links that you might do so and thereby learn just how uniformed you are. My mistake ~ very obviously my mistake to presume you’d make an attempt to educate yourself.

Originally posted by ripcontrol
Potential charges to be charged against the owner... the tribe needs to make sure they record the conversation

Extortion- over a loved ones remains
Price Gouging- over cost
Theft-
Possession of Stolen Property- (are their not relics up their)

You have proven you know nothing about it, you're on the outside, you've no knowledge of laws, treaties and other governing hindrances, yet you insist YOU can advise. Arrogance!

Record what and for what reasons, please? Because so many of the laws are on the side of the Indians?

"Extortion- over a loved ones remains?" Check under the pool.

Price gouging? As I’ve stated more than once, anyone may ask any price for any possession they want to sell and the possession is worth what the market will bear or it's worth to a Buyer what that Buyer is willing to pay to obtain it. Whatever a Buyer pays it, it’s paid of their own volition ~ whether it's a bargain, fair market value, ransom or extortion via a play on the emotions. The only reason the seller mentioned in the OP is asking $4mil is because he knows the Oglala are about to get $20 mil and he wants “his” share and hopes to get it by playing on the emotions of the Tribe over a very, very sensitive issue.

Our remains don’t matter to others, as I’ve clearly demonstrated and cited.

Theft? I think the government and unconscionable settlers have made it more than apparent that it’s not really “theft” if it belongs to the Indians.

Possession of Stolen Property? Again, I have to laugh. Possession of stolen property, indeed.

I'm tired of feeding you information that you're likely not going to read or consider. You can research that for yourself. You've no idea of how many priceless family heirlooms or sacred objects museums have and refuse to return even when the rightful owner can prove it is theirs.

Originally posted by ripcontrol
looking at the situation I see not good leaders but those that have people way astray....

And I still see a whole lot of people, including you, who do not see us (Indians) as “human,” as having feelings, as needing to be considered. I see Tribal leaders whose hands are tied by the laws the Indians are forced to live under; tied in the misppropriations, red tape and corruption that is the BIA. I see People who are lumped in with the other ‘natural resources' overseen by the Department of Everything Else (a/k/a Dept of the Interior).

Sad honesty is that I also see *some* Tribal leaders on a *few” Reservations who will kiss the behind of the BIA so that THEIR families don’t have to suffer anymore. Yes, sadly, there are *some* who have learned the ‘Euroepan political ways’ so well that they game the system to the detriment of their own People. But they are NOT the majority, so please don’t take that simple acknowledgement of SOME Tribal government corruption and run with it like your head’s on fire and your rear end’s catching.

That's all you get from me. I'm tired. I've tried to educate you and all I've received in return is vitriol, insults and utterly ridiculous suggestions based on laws that do not apply. Learn and hope to not repeat history or wallow in your ignorance. It is of no difference to me.

The subject of the thread was about a man who is attempting to fleece people based on an emotional factor he knows is there and because of money he knows is about to be available to them.

And, just to be CLEAR on this issue, I called the Tax Assessor's Office. They grade property by its usefulness, i.e. grasslands, ag, etc. This property is unimproved and assesses at the lowest rate of $165.00 PER ACRE. Therefore, 40 acres at $165 per acre would be $6,600.00 - not even the full $7,000 in the article. And, for the record, NO historical value is placed on the dirt for assessment purposes. They DO have a historical registry but that is for houses and buildings - NOT dirt.

reply to post by SeesFar


lol...

At least your fighting back now... good...


You assume through a lense that narrows your functions....

You assume ...

You want to see hate in my words... not the hard headiness I am preaching....

_____________________________________________________

At least you finally told me some info I was hoping you would add...

So that I am not lost here...

They have framed the fight in terms of it has to go to the BIA... right...

ETJ- is not eliminated....

nor are any of the other things....


That is the first point your being hung on...

"Well it has to go through the BIA.."

the tribes I have dealt with are in different areas... you will definitely want to go back over those agreements with the US... check the wording with modern interpretations.. Specifically in conjunction with recent various deals over the mortgage crisis

My understanding of the deal with them was that in effect the tribe was deeded... the old lady corrected the old man in our conversation... It is a very important word...

The other part of the law is how foreign companies deal with state governments... BIA does not have unilateral say... other federal laws override their authority

a corporation registered with the state has to go by state laws... hint

The BIA only becomes involved at a different point... when it involves the tribes... corporations registered in the state are like any other legal entity...


As for me being disrespectful... no the lady you referred to deserve better then the people she fought for... why are none of the other leaders standing up?

If I remember correctly she found the mess and fought... how come those who knew of the mess let it sit there... I am glad to see you have some fire left in you... the questions and statements I made hurt... well good... have you lived up to her legacy... I have not seen it


If the BIA is your problem... bypass it... find ways to..

have you considered forming a museum on non-Indian land... registering it with the state ... legal entity and be sure, have it rigged where they cant pierce the corporate veil

It is relevant to the argument... unfortunately you are not fighting on the right fields... your counting on kindness and goodwill.. I am trying to get it into your skull you can win but you wont listen...

now back to the city's part... are you sure it is all BIA.. I remember reading something where the tribes land ended (and technical authority) however they reservation encroached into another jurisdiction.. I wish i remembered where I read it... it came down to a state battle over taxes... tribe won... they got the taxes from the areas... if luck holds and it can be replicated...???

I was asking if there where any tribes near by specifically with city functions...


________________________________________

As for the rest of the violations I listed... they are state laws enforced by the state... not the feds unless it crosses state lines...

The BIA has no say in how the state operates...

so the crimes i listed and ways to stop the owner, are county court issues... change the battlefield on them...

So you know if they try and bring up the BIA, Reverse Erie Doctrine... the lawyers for the tribe should be able to see this...

The state can here the case because it involves state issues, the county court can bypass the BIA as long as they follow federal law in the matter...

which if you can prove his motive for raising the price...
extortion, price gouging, and the human body thing (you have to check those state laws)

Keep in mind if he does not retain an attorney
you win...
if he retains an attorney
you can drain him dry and offer to buy the asset so he can pay his legal bills
______________________________________________________

Combine all of these and you can win what you want after all the tribes can afford the fight neither him no his heirs can...

In the end if the County court rules against you... You can invoke the BIA... claim they did not follow a federal law..

______________________________________________________

In conclusion...

I know I am right...

Change battle field to state court...

Take my words as you please....

but the opponent cant fight you and hope to win... hell with the state court you might even be able to get an injunction preventing any transfers

I really have no clue why I was even bothering with this... I normally just bypass this crap... I will not do magic and then post on ATS again... I hate when I feel compelled to respond a certain post...

reply to post by SeesFar


also do not forget the various historical societies around america.... especially those in the state...

Have the tribes supported any congressmen in the area?


You sound like good people but naive... you get upset when someone tells you the truth


I watched a friend of mine pull this crap with his exwife... it was all legal.. they are still tied up in court.. her father's business is suffering and the legal bills keep mounting... temp custody order (shared..)

(of note make sure you bring the issue to state court during the judges re-election cycle... with a pac making a contribution...)

speaking of custody... have you considered that angle....



The magic I was doing seems to have faded... so we will see

if you want the land fight... if you do not... let the BIA handle it and then blame them when you fail... big bad american government screwed us over again... or get your ancestors land... your call...

God I hope he does not sell the land. Maybe in the future we can finally do the right thing and break the tribes and force them to integrate into the rest of society. Oh wait...this is America. We always do the stupid thing of promoting cultural, religious and ethnic diversity. God forbid we try to actually unify people! Good god Americans are stupid.

Originally posted by david99118
God I hope he does not sell the land. Maybe in the future we can finally do the right thing and break the tribes and force them to integrate into the rest of society. Oh wait...this is America. We always do the stupid thing of promoting cultural, religious and ethnic diversity. God forbid we try to actually unify people! Good god Americans are stupid.

Well, the topic is not about whether or not the Seller will sell the land - he's stated his intent to sell it one way or another. The topic of the thread is about whether or not there is any honor, integrity, or even humanity, in someone who would issue an ultimatum to a poor people who have a deep emotional tie to that land that they may buy it for $4million instead of the (less than) $7,000 for which it is valued on the tax rolls. Bearing in mind, of course, that it was only offered to them for the $4mil AFTER it was known that the Tribe is about to receive $20mil in back pay from funds misappropriated by the government.

Inability to stay on topic aside, your comments are interesting.

Perhaps you would explain why you believe the Tribes need to be more broken than they already have been and why you see them as non-integrated into the rest of society? In your opinion, why is it the "right thing" to do as you hope will be done?

If we use the expression "When in Rome ...." as an example, wouldn't it have been more appropriate for the Europeans to have integrated themselves into the Tribes' societies?

You've stated that respecting others' cultural, religious and ethnic diversities is "stupid?" How so? Why do you believe American Indians have no right to keep their traditions and cultures that go back over 30,000 years .... many, many more years than any European-based traditions.