Nuclear proliferation needs to be stopped

reply to post by wantsome


Typical American supremacist. North Korea has tested 2 nukes, Iran?, Have they tested any?, dont think so, they might have I genuinely do not know.

However America has tested hundreds, if not thousands and has been responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent people throughout the course of its imperialistic conquests. And your ignorant minded morality tells you North Korea and Iran should be dealt with??

How do you view your own nations actions against those of Iran and North Korea?, If surely in your mind North Korea and Iran should be "dealt with" what do you propose we should do about America?, surely something more extreme yes?

reply to post by luciddream

You know the difference is.....The system we have now (which is absolutely not capitalism by any definition I've ever seen in economics) puts you in debt or ruins your "future". The Chinese Communist approach just shoots you in the head.

I love the American way, given the option. At least America's warped way of doing things leaves a survivor to try again and get it right the second time. The Chinese way sends the family a bill for the bullet.

In terms of topic? It relates because North Korea doesn't fart sideways without China at least giving a passing allowance for it. They could end Kim's little reign in a weekend and no one in the world would lift a finger to stop them. Hence....Kim isn't spitting in THEIR eye the way he is everyone else's........and these are hardly isolated nations or instances we're seeing around the world. Not isolated at all.

Mandarin isn't a bad idea to learn though. I'd encourage kids now to consider it while young enough to easily pick up a language SO foreign to an American english speaker.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Agree for the most part, but i think like how Capitalism changed from what it was suppose to be, if the Chinese do influence the non-communist countries, the communism practiced in the new countries will not be the same. It would have a difference traits to it, maybe who knows, it might have more freedom then current Chinese communism.

I have few Cantonese friends, and couple of Mandarin co-workers.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

At least America's warped way of doing things leaves a survivor to try again and get it right the second time

The millions of homeless and the millions of poverty stricken families must just be either really lazy or stupid right?, I mean if they cant get it right after the second time around it certainly cant be the system thats at fault eh?

Im also not aware of any Shanghai billionaires or affluent families being billed for bullets whilst driving around in there Ferrari's all day long.

reply to post by luciddream

You may well be right on that, actually. China is an odd master when it comes to it's 'Possessions' or 'Protectorates' as we might call them in the U.S.. Tibet has been so thoroughly raped as a nation and people that, to my shock recently, I discovered it's not even ON a map anymore. Literally. China erased Tibet as a entity, entirely!

I didn't believe it at first. I had to do all my map building B.S. for Geography and Asia is of course a major area for all that. I got done with all my South/Monsoon Asia nations to realize I was missing one! err... thought I was anyway. I don't know why I wasn't aware of this before..but it was only then I learned that while the same map shows things like Gaza or the West Bank clear as day.....Tibet? Literally ceased to exist.

On the other hand....:Look how China does administer Hong Kong. Radically different by any standard of measure. So who knows.. I sure don't HOPE the world suffers when China fills the void the U.S. will soon be leaving for awhile.

@Tuttle

Yeah.... Chronic Homeless are just an American problem. Just a "Capitalist" thing I suppose. Whatever.

If you're going to just run off with the anti-American talking points and hate, at least toss in some of your own logic and perspective to it. It makes the propaganda half way fresh anyway.

reply to post by rigel4


Well I'm sorry but your wrong.

Yes most of the Japanese planners knew they could never beat America but they had hoped to delay America's entry into the war long enough to gather enough land that it would make the re-taking of territory simply not worth it to America.

They were under no illusions about what a full scale war with America would entail but due to the embargo they had little choice. America could have struck a deal with them and avoided war with Japan altogether but that would have required conceding much of the Pacific to them.

Why else do you think Japan hit us? Do you honestly think they believed they could cripple America by taking out the Pacific fleet?

Of course not. It was a delay tactic while they reinforced their defenses and hoped that Germany was successful in the west which would divert the majority of American forces.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

@Tuttle Yeah.... Chronic Homeless are just an American problem. Just a "Capitalist" thing I suppose. Whatever. If you're going to just run off with the anti-American talking points and hate, at least toss in some of your own logic and perspective to it. It makes the propaganda half way fresh anyway.

Never said it was just an American problem, however you were specificaly talking about America, why would I talk about any other country if you were specificaly talking about America??.

If you're going to just run off with the anti-American talking points and hate

I do not understand why pointing out that America has a problem with Homelessness and poverty in its society is somehow "anti-American" or hate filled. Can you please explain this further?, or maybe I should just start checking under the bed for reds and the communist menace now shall it?

Now back to what you originaly said.

At least America's warped way of doing things leaves a survivor to try again and get it right the second time

Having made that point you must understand then that it implies no matter how poor you are within America's society you always have a chance to make good. You are ultimately suggesting America has within its society mechanisms that allow ANYONE, no matter how poor you are to become wealthy or at least comfortable within the limits of American society.

I personaly believe that is idioticaly naive, and can in no way look at a statement like that and take it with any sort of face value because it is just so incredibly wrong and not only shows what a poor understanding of American economics and society you really have but also what a complete and utter detachment from reality you must be experiencing.

Here is just one simple point about your statement that draws me to my conclusion, now again, this is what you said.

At least America's warped way of doing things leaves a survivor to try again and get it right the second time

This would imply that those who have been adversely affected by the economic system of America effectively make a conscious decision to remain in a self inflicted state of poverty and are therefor happy with the consequence that goes with it. We should for your sake keep this simple,

Can you explain why you think someone would wish to inflict on themselves a life of heartbreaking poverty in a society that, as you said, gives them a chance to "get it right"?

@Wrabbit2000 I understand what your saying, The world won't think less or more of the us if it would stop sticking their nose in everything. In fact I think if the US would want to set a prime example of how it should be it should stop everything and start fixing America first.

And I love when an argument start with "yeah and when we stop our monney for aid"

aid... really the price that comes with this aid is worse then the original problem. I'm in no way anti American, but I just dont understand where this arrogance comes from. Your nation has lost almost all its pride and glory and yet some of you people still walk about as if its the lead runner in the world.

The thing that lack's in the American mentality is being humble. And I hope once/if your people survive this madness that you will once again live the lives of settlers in a brave new world.

The American dream is part of the problem. But that's a whole other discussion.

Edit: I know you are well versed so forgive me for this scramble of words trying to put down a descent thought

reply to post by Tuttle

I do not understand why pointing out that America has a problem with Homelessness and poverty in its society is somehow "anti-American" or hate filled. Can you please explain this further?, or maybe I should just start checking under the bed for reds and the communist menace now shall it?

Now back to what you originaly said.

Perhaps you'll understand it better to know I'd read your last 6-8 posts in your profile before replying about your anti-american position. I ALWAYS read back on someone's posts before replying to what seems an out-of-place edge or hard point to what is being said. I find it helpful to know if it's truly a point of emotional passion for someone......or an agenda being pushed across various topics and threads. Yours was the latter. I called you on it. That about does it for me and our chats unless the blind anti-american rhetoric eases up just a hair.

(Folks seem to think everything said is said in isolation and no one ever looks ACROSS threads for more context...err... it isn't, and we do. )

reply to post by Senduko

On this, I'll agree and it might surprise you. The Aid DOES come with as much downside as upside.

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

That's an outstanding book on just how, precisely, the US has used foreign aid and loans as a weapon against other nations to essentially enslave 3rd world Governments and Economies by loans they can never pay back and everyone but the nation being set up, knew it at the time. I'd never suggest the U.S. wears some big white hat. We don't. It's a dirty grey, if anything.

At the same time though, the 10's of billion in aid and military assistance given in disasters world wide will certainly be felt in it's absence and missed to a painful degree, I have no doubt. The amounts the US gives represent a fair % of some nation's entire GDP....and to just make that vanish? Of course it's gonna hurt.

Just the same? That Aid and Policing of the world has utterly destroyed the United States both economically and militarily. I'll be VERY VERY happy to see it all end. All sides of it. Good and bad, to the last dollar. The sooner the better.

reply to post by wantsome
the 3 country's that are a real threat all ready have them, China Pakistan, and India. the rest of the world will be soon enough Nuke, Iran DPRK, Egypt Jordan Syria Libia, North Africa South Africa Yemen and Saudi Arabia, are all seeking the Genie In A Bottle why are you so worried about to country's that should know as soon as they do use them nukes they will be dust and a sheet of glass. Let them have it. once you tell someone no , the more they want it oh Egypt has one www.fas.org... so does Jordan www.world-nuclear.org...
Syria yep got the nukes er war heads www.globalsecurity.org...
Yemen seeking the Genie nuclearstreet.com... so far all plans have been shelved but give them a year or so, they too will be glowing. should i go on?? It is the world to day , 135 country's will have nukes buy the end of 2050 or have at lest one or 2 nuke warheads or so say the do, Why not let them all have a nuke first one to use first one to be dust.

reply to post by bekod

You know the problem is...they don't know that. They have no reason to really believe they would be 'glassed' for doing it. Imagine this ... Say Yemen gets tactical nuclear weapons (battlefield type) and they nuke the Palace in Riyadh with important Royals IN it at the time.

What happens? It's easy to say 'Nuke 'em!'....but nuke WHO exactly? Do we nuke one of Yemen's densely populated cities to get the evil bastards who ordered the strike? We kill millions to avenge millions?

It gets real complicated real fast if 1, they don't have enough nuclear power to be a threat beyond what they've already done ....and 2. they didn't do it to US in the first place.

I Know the RIGHT answer. We really HAVE to answer nukes with nukes...lest more nations kill 10's of millions in the aftermath of settling scores after proving they don't die for doing it. Yet... stil... Can you see Obama deliberately and with forethought, ordering the nuclear obliteration of a major Yemeni city, in my example....strictly on principle? Not in a millions years, is my thought.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
....

I will have a go on that read, as a member of the eu where on the same boat lol, and It seems the problems the US is facing is the goal for the EU, sad really... I couldn't agree more on the fact wanting this all to end soon. a handful people playing with the lives of thousand.


Edit: Err anyone got a free e-reader link for that?=p

reply to post by Wrabbit2000
and this is why Russia China US UK EU have not used them nukes, Yemen Iran would be the ones to use it DPRK maybe, maybe not, Iran said in way that yes they do have it DRPK thought to have 12 here is the link that points to it science.nbcnews.com...
from the link

So what's next? If North Korea’s secret plan is to develop a system capable of menacing the United States, an intercontinental launch and re-entry system is the key part of the puzzle. Last year, U.S. intelligence sources told NBC News that North Korea already may have up to a "few dozen" nuclear weapons that could be fitted on ballistic missiles.

so now what DPRK has 12 or so ready to use nukes , waiting for the cloud... not holding breath

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Pointing out simple facts concerning America's imperial conquest is "anti-american"???

To be honest i'm rather frightened that someone could live with such an Orwellian perspective on life. Never at any point in any of my posts have I voiced any "anti-american" sentiment, I have however voiced accurate and honest views on how there government conducts itself both in history and in the present. I like America, I go there A LOT on holiday, even work there sometimes too. But facts are facts. The British Empire subjugated the majority of the known planet under a tyranny of mercantilism and militaristic brutality.....guess im "anti-british empire" for pointing out facts.

I did however also note you decided not to address any other of the actual points made to the subject at hand but instead decided to cloud the issue with accusations of "anti-americanism" as though this is perhaps some sort of trend, I dont know, to be honest im surprised you didnt just accuse me of being a communist and be done with it.

But dont worry about it man, it only shows your ability to actualy engage in conversation with others on any sort of meaningful level is seriously skewed by your own personal bias. I personaly would seek with utmost haste to let go off those prejudices and understand people, at times, have differing views than yourself and sometimes, and i know this will sound strange, but sometimes opinions differ not because the person with the opposing view point is a time traveling communist from the McCarthy era, but someone who may have just led a different life and radicaly different circumstances have brought them to a different conclusion. Because of that, and given the inherent nature of this site and its promotion of free ideas and encouraging topics to be discussed you would perhaps take that on board and use it as an opportunity to learn from others, maybe even teach people something, but certainly never, at any point attempt to force your bias prejudiced on others for having a difference of opinion, that to me just seems like a waste of the opportunity you have and to some extent kinda defeats the purpose of this entire messaging board no?

reply to post by Tuttle

You noticed correctly in how I didn't address your points. You really are something else. You troll thread after thread after thread.....all over this site, dropping little nuggets of anti-american hate whereever you go. Your posting history shows it...ALL OVER THE PLACE. The only consistency is that the notes are generally 2-4 lines long, ALWAYS extremely anti-American as a nation, culture or people and very pointed...almost combative.

..and then you get all defensive when someone finally notes the fact you're making a habit of this rather single minded fixation all over ATS? Well...tough. You got called on it. Now will you continue the rather hard focus on all things against my nation or perhaps, will we accept that MAYBE...America isn't the worst nation to ever grace the face of the Earth and nuclear weapons aren't exclusively our problem?

America is no perfect utopia. No well educated and/or informed American would claim it is. It's hardly the evil place some seem to make it a personal crusade at making it out to be though.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


It's all good man, I'm not sure you are ever really going to get it, if you are off the mind to genuinely believe America's policies of imperial expansion are a good thing, regardless of what horrors they create, that's cool, your entitled to it. However quite simply labeling anyone who happens to take a different view as "anti-American" then simply refusing further conversation is, I believe pretty ignorant. I am in no way an "anti-American", I am quite passionate about America in many ways, I just do not however accept the morality of your governments foreign policy can ever be rationalised to the point that any free thinking person could ever condone.

Labels are a dangerous thing mate, I'm sure if you ever read any of the history on America about McCarthy you could understand that, and I would be very careful about when you use them. Anyway,

Here is a chap you may or may not have heard off,

Henry Wallace

33rd Vice President of the United States (1941–1945), the Secretary of Agriculture (1933–1940), and the Secretary of Commerce (1945–1946). In the 1948 presidential election, Wallace was the nominee of the Progressive Party.

You can read about this guy or not, up to you mate, but it is Americans like this, and many others, that I have a great deal of respect for and could only hope that one day more Americans like him would rise to power within your government to basicaly right the wrongs that are perpetrated against not only yourself as a U.S citizen but the citizens of other nations who have the misfortune of being terrorized by your government.