Lockheed HAVE BLUE demonstrator in flight-RARE footage

Originally posted by boomer135
As we seen time and time again, they take the lesser capable aircraft (like the -22 over the -23), make it white world (well not in the -117''s case) and make the other competitors aircraft a black world project. It would be like developing a RF-23 right now or perhaps the RF-19 at the same time as the F-117.

Just as if, right?

They're not going to fly a F-18G Growler for ECM in for a F-22 bombing run, would they right?

It sounds like from the description that they trusted Lockheed better on the manufacturing side, but maybe Northrop had better nerds & rocket scientists but slower/expensive production, so they're better for the small-production-run specialty craft. I mean they're still around despite not winning any of the big contracts.

reply to post by mbkennel



There are some very real aircraft out there that have yet to be made public. I think they will stay black until the technology is no longer useful or someone catches one on camera (and release it to the public )

reply to post by boomer135


I love the concept of a plane/what-have-you being classified from its inception to its decommission. I just hope that it would at least be used in some real world setting. It seems like a waste to have a technology demonstrator flying around for however long doing nothing instead of building on its technology immediately.

Originally posted by framedragged
reply to post by boomer135

 

I love the concept of a plane/what-have-you being classified from its inception to its decommission. I just hope that it would at least be used in some real world setting. It seems like a waste to have a technology demonstrator flying around for however long doing nothing instead of building on its technology immediately.

I have no knowledge but it stands to reason that Somethings in addition to two helicopters were flying over Abbotabad one moonless evening some time back. Do you think all the generals + Hillary were only looking at satellite pictures?

reply to post by mbkennel


Heh, indeed. I enjoyed Boomer's conjecture of an e/m countermeasure plane joining that mission. Or the f-117's flight buddy. I was more just marveling at how impressive it is that we can have a plane go through its entire life-cycle and fly missions without anyone ever knowing, even after they've scrapped the plane.

reply to post by mbkennel


We know that there was an RQ-170 in the area. They've said as much. They were using that to get real time video from the area as the raid went on.

reply to post by Zaphod58


Well that's the official story at least. Here's a good write up by Tyler over at aviationintel.com. He makes some interesting points in his story, especially the rapid prototyping of of the stealth chopper and the sentinel.

aviationintel.com...

reply to post by boomer135


I've had multiple sources say that the -170 was nothing but a fill in measure, so a rapid prototype makes a lot of sense. You don't throw everything you have into something that's only a temporary solution, when you have something much better come along later on.

reply to post by RoScoLaz


I noticed it too. I am glad I am not the only one. Very odd looking.

Originally posted by RoScoLaz
anybody else notice this 'object' (?) at about 00:16?

At first I thought maybe it was a water droplet, but the object appears to be moving towards the front of the aircraft! To bad that the clip is so short. Maybe we should move this to the UFO board.

reply to post by gariac


St. James! Love that place! I was fortunate to work as a guinea pig for a company at NASA. The job was similar to market research as I had to qualify for each experiment and was paid different amounts based on the experiment. I loved going on base! I saw some awe inspiring things in those huge hangers.

The aircraft that I saw that night was not the type of triangle your thinking of. I live about 25 min from an international airport and about a mile from a very busy small airport. Luke afb is about 40 min away. This craft was unlike anything I have seen. There was no standard lighting on this craft. From below the shape was like the stealth bomber but this craft was white. The light was coming from the bottom center of the craft and had an odd glow. The light had a hazy quality radiating from the intense center of the craft. I am sure this is a man made craft. Could it of been the Auroa?

Originally posted by boomer135
reply to post by matej

 

Ok reading this article shows another example of an aircraft chosen over a potentially better stealth platform. The HAVE BLUE platform from skunk works was chosen over the Northrop design even though it may have been a better stealth aircraft:

Both models have shown more than a thousand times smaller radar reflection than any conventional aircraft. Up to this point, the parties recognize the impact of the work and the standard of confidentiality to suddenly become one of the most closely guarded military secrets. During the measurements, both teams were strictly separated and after their completion could come to see a draft of the competitor. The decision on the winner has been largely subjective. Although Northrop model had the potential to be less detectable wider range of enemy anti-aircraft defenses, production of two prototypes was 26 April 1976 Lockheed entrusted us as the Skunk Works division has had considerable experience with effective and economical construction of prototype aircraft. Model Northrop would require a longer time to develop and showed slightly worse results right where it zavážilo.

Yeah it's google translated so it doesn't make sense sometimes. But you can get the general gist of it. Looking at some of the designs from other companies competing for the contract, a few could be considered the F-19 model kit design concepts. As we seen time and time again, they take the lesser capable aircraft (like the -22 over the -23), make it white world (well not in the -117''s case) and make the other competitors aircraft a black world project. It would be like developing a RF-23 right now or perhaps the RF-19 at the same time as the F-117.

I would like to quickly interject here.

The YF-22 was not a "lesser capable aircraft" in comparison to the YF-23, in fact it was far from it. The ultimate goal of the Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) program was to make a low observable, highly maneuverable air superiority fighter for the purpose of supplanting the aging F-15/16 and to meet the (at the time) threat of modern Soviet designs. The YF-22 exceeded in this role, specifically in the high altitude-supersonic flight regime, which was the USAF's primary envelope of operation while retaining exceedingly low RCS/IR emissions/etc. These reasons coupled with less inherent risk in employing Lockheed over Northrop were most of the deciding factors in making the F-22 the USAF's 21st century A2A platform.

reply to post by spacecase7717


While watching the video I had that thought of when the UFO talk would start up. I am going with the usual explanation.

If civilians were filming (not sure why they would be, guessing equipment) then I would imagine a real UFO would be filmed, film confiscated, and rumor of it would be out by now.

Originally posted by Pants3204

Originally posted by boomer135
reply to post by matej

 

I would like to quickly interject here.

The YF-22 was not a "lesser capable aircraft" in comparison to the YF-23, in fact it was far from it. The ultimate goal of the Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) program was to make a low observable, highly maneuverable air superiority fighter for the purpose of supplanting the aging F-15/16 and to meet the (at the time) threat of modern Soviet designs. The YF-22 exceeded in this role, specifically in the high altitude-supersonic flight regime, which was the USAF's primary envelope of operation while retaining exceedingly low RCS/IR emissions/etc. These reasons coupled with less inherent risk in employing Lockheed over Northrop were most of the deciding factors in making the F-22 the USAF's 21st century A2A platform.

edit on 19-2-2013 by Pants3204 because: (no reason given)

I don't disagree that the F-22 is the most advanced ATF we have in the world. What I'm saying, and what I've heard and saw, the YF-23 overall scored higher in just about everything. I don't think we will know for a very long time exactly what plane got what scores but leading up to the decision, everyone thought the YF-23 had it in the basket because it was waaaaaay faster, more stealthier and rumored to have a bigger payload than the F-22. Not to mention the super-cruise was a lot better as well. I know this discussion will be a hearsay discussion for a long time, so this info is just based off of rumors. Also, rumor has it the navy wanted the F-23 as well to replace the tomcats. And we know how the Navy and Air Force like to bicker. I always like to tell the Navy to get their own tankers then!

Oh the F-23 was also going to get a new canopy and a redesigned forward fuselage, along with a great increase in payload.......Hey wait, maybe it did and maybe that's why it could have gone black world!

Again all hearsay, but some level of rumor/truth to it.

Originally posted by boomer135

Originally posted by Pants3204

Originally posted by boomer135
reply to post by matej

 

I would like to quickly interject here.

The YF-22 was not a "lesser capable aircraft" in comparison to the YF-23, in fact it was far from it. The ultimate goal of the Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) program was to make a low observable, highly maneuverable air superiority fighter for the purpose of supplanting the aging F-15/16 and to meet the (at the time) threat of modern Soviet designs. The YF-22 exceeded in this role, specifically in the high altitude-supersonic flight regime, which was the USAF's primary envelope of operation while retaining exceedingly low RCS/IR emissions/etc. These reasons coupled with less inherent risk in employing Lockheed over Northrop were most of the deciding factors in making the F-22 the USAF's 21st century A2A platform.

edit on 19-2-2013 by Pants3204 because: (no reason given)

I don't disagree that the F-22 is the most advanced ATF we have in the world. What I'm saying, and what I've heard and saw, the YF-23 overall scored higher in just about everything. I don't think we will know for a very long time exactly what plane got what scores but leading up to the decision, everyone thought the YF-23 had it in the basket because it was waaaaaay faster, more stealthier and rumored to have a bigger payload than the F-22. Not to mention the super-cruise was a lot better as well. I know this discussion will be a hearsay discussion for a long time, so this info is just based off of rumors. Also, rumor has it the navy wanted the F-23 as well to replace the tomcats. And we know how the Navy and Air Force like to bicker. I always like to tell the Navy to get their own tankers then!

Oh the F-23 was also going to get a new canopy and a redesigned forward fuselage, along with a great increase in payload.......Hey wait, maybe it did and maybe that's why it could have gone black world!

Again all hearsay, but some level of rumor/truth to it.

edit on 19-2-2013 by boomer135 because: (no reason given)

I'll quote directly my AIAA reference book on the ATF competition.

The Northrop F-23 design was reported to be slightly faster and "stealthier," whereas the F-22 was more optimized for maneuvering. None of these differences, however, was decisive, as both designs met the stated requirements for the ATF. The F-22 was more like a conventional fighter design and therefore appeared to represent less uncertainty. Perhaps more important than any design differences were the management and risk mitigation plans contained in the proposals. Lockheed's proven experience with the F-117A and Boeing's avionics and aerospace manufacturing expertise may have been factors in that team's favor.1

Now for your claims that the YF-23 was "waaaaaaayy" faster, here are the official supercruise/top speed figures (from the same book)

YF-23A Max Supercruise Speed (with YF-120 engine): Mach 1.6
YF-22A Max Supercruise Speed (with YF-119 engine): Mach 1.58

YF-23A Max Speed (theoretical, not demonstrated, with YF-120 engine): > Mach 2
YF-22A Max Speed (demonstrated, with YF-119 engine): > Mach 2

The YF-23A demonstrated marginally greater VLO characteristics than the YF-22A but it should also be noted that the reduction in radar/infrared/electronic signatures came a cost, both in maneuverability (very important to ATF) and $$$ (even more important to ATF).

In the end, both exceeded ATF standards and both are fantastic aircraft.

The Northrop F-23 design was reported to be slightly faster and "stealthier," whereas the F-22 was more optimized for maneuvering. None of these differences, however, was decisive, as both designs met the stated requirements for the ATF. The F-22 was more like a conventional fighter design and therefore appeared to represent less uncertainty. Perhaps more important than any design differences were the management and risk mitigation plans contained in the proposals. Lockheed's proven experience with the F-117A and Boeing's avionics and aerospace manufacturing expertise may have been factors in that team's favor.1

Now for your claims that the YF-23 was "waaaaaaayy" faster, here are the official supercruise/top speed figures (from the same book)

YF-23A Max Supercruise Speed (with YF-120 engine): Mach 1.6
YF-22A Max Supercruise Speed (with YF-119 engine): Mach 1.58

YF-23A Max Speed (theoretical, not demonstrated, with YF-120 engine): > Mach 2
YF-22A Max Speed (demonstrated, with YF-119 engine): > Mach 2

The YF-23A demonstrated marginally greater VLO characteristics than the YF-22A but it should also be noted that the reduction in radar/infrared/electronic signatures came a cost, both in maneuverability (very important to ATF) and $$$ (even more important to ATF).

In the end, both exceeded ATF standards and both are fantastic aircraft.

I agree almost with all that. The max speeds were deemed classified so we will never know the top max speeds of either aircraft. A lot of the info I get from the program are from the actual test flight pilots at Edwards AFB. They would always tell us that the YF23 was a far superior aircraft and it seemed that they knew that the bird wasn't done yet. But I agree completely that the thrust vectoring and management/risk were key components.

reply to post by boomer135


That flight was kind of "Accidental" as the USAF KNEW about the Dykstra-Flex camera
system being on the private jet, but they didn't KNOW when the ILM B-Roll flight would take
place. From what I understand, the original PURPOSE of the flight was to shoot background
plates that would be used in the Empire Strikes Back specifically used in the Planet Hoth
Air-to-Air Fighter scene and when they came back to the California airfield, USAF personnel
were on the ground waiting. As far as I know, no-one else at Industrial Light and Magic KNEW
about the extra flight until later. Fuel charges were already paid for right then and there and the
only other thing was that anyone in the Film Crew NOT an American Citizen had to stay on the ground.

The 2nd Unit DOP (British) was literally stamping his feet and cursing up a storm until Dykstra
took him aside to "Bribe" him with a beer and steak dinner. From what I also understand,
one crew member had an 8mm film camera on-board which he didn't declare to the USAF
personnel, and therefore I understand that cabin footage WITH SOUND of a good portion
of the flight IS still available. (NOTE: Since I've transferred MILLIONS OF FEET of super-8
and Reg-8 -- I'm open to some Beer and Steak in exchange for letting me transfer that footage
to hard drives and BluRay before it gets lost to the sands of time and plastic decomposition -
What a historical piece that would be!)

As another aside, there was a second program based on the F-117/Have Blue
SAP (Special Access Program) that was a LARGER version built for RECON
purposes which was basically designed as a "Stealth Satellite Imaging Replacement"
craft. The bomb bays were REPLACED with big lenses and plate film. This craft was
designed and USED for overflying Soviet Submarine and Ship bases in the Kamchatka
area and to survey nuclear missile and Warsaw Pact armed force positions in Poland,
Czechoslovakia, Hungary, East Germany and Finland. As far as I know they were
NEVER DIRECTLY overflown in WESTERN RUSSIAN airspace but the Eastern
Russia/Siberia territories were fair game. Used until the early to mid 1990's
THEY were the replacement for the SR-71 Blackbird aircraft...NOT the much
ballyhooed Senior Citizen or Aurora Black Budget aircraft which were
TEST PLATFORMS for fine-tuning Pulse Detonation Engine and ScramJet
technology.

---

Since the ABOVE HISTORICAL MISSIVE will raise just a few old-timer hackles
in "The Dungeon", I'll add this extra one regarding the "Copper" (i.e. the metal) series
of Black Budget aircraft...but I'll leave that for another day.

Originally posted by boomer135
Oh the F-23 was also going to get a new canopy and a redesigned forward fuselage, along with a great increase in payload.......Hey wait, maybe it did and maybe that's why it could have gone black world!

like a Big Black Aardvark?

reply to post by StargateSG7


This recon F-117 story sounds dubious. By the time the 90s rolled around, we had good satellites. Further, the F117 isn't undetectable, but rather hard to target. Overflights would have been detected. Last of all, aircraft don't really scale. A larger F117 would be a different looking aircraft. Not radically different, but not supersized either. And if the airframe was different, you might as well make it more aerodynamic since the computer simulation for stealth shapes would have surely been advanced for a second generation aircraft.

Originally posted by roadgravel
reply to post by spacecase7717

 

While watching the video I had that thought of when the UFO talk would start up. I am going with the usual explanation.

If civilians were filming (not sure why they would be, guessing equipment) then I would imagine a real UFO would be filmed, film confiscated, and rumor of it would be out by now.

====

"Civilian Film-Makers" at this time 1978 to 1980 had the MOST ADVANCED motion-stabilized
camera system available. John Dykstra made something akin to a modern 2000's era Wescam
(i.e. a gyroscope stabilized video camera) in 1978 and applied it to making the Star Wars films.
The USAF already KNEW his camera system was on a plane and for technical expediency,
it was just easier and FASTER to just hire the 2nd Unit Industrial Light and Magic-operated
camera plane on an ad-hoc basis to get the Have Blue footage. Mostly it was just luck that
the Filming Jet was in the right place and right time for the USAF to take advantage of their
equipment. I personally suspect that a RELATIVE of an ILM 2nd Unit Crew Member was a
USAF techie in the Have Blue SAP program and HELPED bring this film-shoot altogether at
the last moment. I HIGHLY SUSPECT that you'll find that a certain ILM crew member or techie
in the years 1978 to 1980 had a Brother, Father or Son working at Lockheed or at Area 51 who
KNEW about the Dystra-Flex Stabilized camera and mentioned it to higher ups who decided
to go with it for filming the Have Blue craft!

Find that techie and you'll be able to CONFIRM WHERE the original IDEA of using a
Civilian camera system to film a secret aircraft came from!

The "UFO" that many of you see would LIKELY have been one or more Chase Planes,
possibly the old F5 Freedom Fighters or POSSIBLY Area-51 or Nellis Air Force Base
sourced F4 Phantoms. Those aircraft were quite a bit FASTER and more maneuverable
than the "Have Blue" and would be ideal for technical observance of the flight envelope
testing that would have taken place. I don't think the F-14's or F-15's were available
at that time yet for chase plane duty since they were still in their OWN flight envelope
testing period.