The Most Important Chart in American Politics

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by beezzer

 

Actually Beezer, as I stated earlier in this thread, if even just Walmart, gave it's annual bonus cash to the general minimum wage worker, the economy would boom almost over night.

It would be an actual stimulus package sponsored by the markets, and not by the government. So yes, raising wages and addressing poor treatment by US companies is certainly a good place to look.

~Tenth

We are spending a trillion dollars over "budget". We have been. If the economy was even tepid, I might agree with you. But we have gone beyond the threshold where just increasing household earnings will make a difference.

Local economies may flourish for a bit, but without sustained growth, not a "one-time" QE-type stimulus, we're heading for a hard hard landing.

reply to post by xedocodex


I'm not derailing anything. Just trying to put things into proper perspective.

reply to post by XPLodER


Maybe I'm just not explaining myself well.

ANY spending has to be done with SOMEONE'S money.

And we are broke.

Flat busted.

We can't afford to spend anymore.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by XPLodER

 

Maybe I'm just not explaining myself well.

ANY spending has to be done with SOMEONE'S money.

And we are broke.

Flat busted.

We can't afford to spend anymore.

acually i find that about as incorrect a statement as i can say i have heard in a long while,

NZ AS A NATION CANT PRINT MONEY,
america as a nation CAN print money

your central bank has expanded the money supply exponentially,
our bank CAN NOT expand our money supply

because your expanded money supply "skipped the economy" and went straigh to the banks,
your dollar devalued against ours,

we are now less "competitive" in the world market,
you are steeling "value" from our currency

we CANT print money to compete in this devaluing process,
and therefore are losing money on exports putting pressure on OUR economy.

as money drys up here we are forced to sell our assets TO THE BIG BANKS THAT GOT THE BAILOUT,

so every time you beat on your drum, were broke, we must stop spending
you are either critically under informed,

or really trying to rub salt into an open wound

at this point your banks now own our assets without having to do anything,
and i have to sit here a listen to you "preach" austerity?

all our boats are tied to your economy.
and your "suggestions" that the rich have no duty to their country to pay fair taxes,
feels like one hell of a slap in the face.

when your survival effects us


xploder

reply to post by beezzer


I dunno... there's a logic to what you say since typically when companies raise wages they raise the prices and nothing in the market exists in a bubble so there are potential ramifications, like you state. However that is because we let it happen, well sort of anyway. We have all the power we need to have over the leeches, our dollars. Now unfortunately this is where things really devolve between Americans.

We have the power to tell companies that we don't accept higher prices to compensate for higher wages yet we don't do this. We have half the country yelling about how you can't tell a business owner or board what to do with their money and the other half wanting to slap a million nonsensical regulations on them. Meanwhile the fat cats sit back laughing as we punch each other in the face. Our solutions lay largely in the middle and at some point we are going to have stop digging our heels in, grow up and meet there.

reply to post by beezzer


I never postured that it woudl be a fix all solution Beezer, but we both know that house hold income plays a significant part in a healthy economy.

Your middle class are the ones pumping the rest of the country with money with purchases. The less value their dollar has, and less of those dollars, equate to an economy that is unsustainable from the get go.

Doesn't matter if we create 2 million new jobs, if they are all crap pay, the issue will never get resolved. Inflation and the cost of living must be factored into these decisions.

Like I said, a temporary, real economic action plan would involve stimulus from the private industry as well as public.

~Tenth

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

I completely agree. The problem begins and ends in DC. And as long as their rears are covered, they will care not one bit to what we all are going through.

To be fair, that problem lies in your own backyard as well. If you think your state legislature is any better, you would be wrong. It certainly does not begin and end in D.C.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Paying employees based on perceived value, not actual value, which is what you are proposing, would tank the economy.

Doesn't matter which way you slice it.

The chart you have posted is highly misleading. It implies that the gains in production and GDP have been employee driven, which is not accurate. The gains have been primarily through technology. Technology that has been funded by business, not by employees.

If you think otherwise, I challenge any welder to go against my automated welder. S/he wouldn't even be set up for his tacks before the auto is finished multiple pieces. Who paid for that piece of equipment? The company did. So, who should benefit from that piece of equipment?

reply to post by beezzer


The corporations that are making record profits needs to curb its greed and raise wages.

That is what this thread is about. Is that simple enough?

reply to post by peck420


The fact that you would choose to eliminate a good job in favor of a robot shows that you have the same corporate mentality as the vast majority of fortune 500 companies.

Which is the crux of the problem. Profit over middle class and economic stability. Every job eliminated due to automation contributes directly to the declining economy.

Productivity is the DIRECT result of employee work. I used to own a Call Center. Sure I came up with the idea, I made the business rules and the contracts with various companies.

But if my staff wasn't doing their job, my business would have tanked in just a few years.

They were the reason I collected a pay check. I paid them what they were worth, as a group of people who made me quite a bit of money. I even sold it to them after I retired.

Business can be successful and moral, you don't have to choose which.

~Tenth

The number one killer of jobs is technology, it's been like this since the dawn of the garden. The whole point of technology is to bring gains and profits, such is the graph in the OP. There is only one true path through this mess, and it's the ugly way.

Our current system will have to be systematically dismantled and replaced with hands on labor jobs and consumerism that is based on need to survive goods. All the arguing in the world will not produce a solution. We have to give up the things that we don't need, there is no way around it. This will happen on an individual level as well as a global level whether we like it or not.

The only question is, do we get our heads out of our asses and make the tough choice, or do we ride it out and let nature provide us with the consequences.

Each one of us has the responsibility to see things for how they are. By arguing over small details and not addressing the big picture problems, we compound the predicament AND waste our own precious energy.

Be responsible for the future of our children. Don't play into the meaningless squabble they provide us with. It's sole purpose is to keep us occupied while criminal business practice harvests every resource that it can sniff out.

We are here to learn how to make the most difference, if we are going to do it, we need to cut to the source of the problem, address the real issues and keep each other, and our communities in check.

Lets stop pensions for criminals in congress! Lets stop making easy for these people in congress and staff from having inside knowledge getting kick back contracts. Stop legalized bribes, Health care fraud, And unwind the fees and regulation that add to fees and taxes. Stop sending money over seas. Hell Kuwait should have paid us to come over there to fight Iraq back when they invaded Kuwait. we sure as hell shouldn't have agreed to pay the bill, geeshz

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by beezzer

 

I never postured that it woudl be a fix all solution Beezer, but we both know that house hold income plays a significant part in a healthy economy.

Your middle class are the ones pumping the rest of the country with money with purchases. The less value their dollar has, and less of those dollars, equate to an economy that is unsustainable from the get go.

Doesn't matter if we create 2 million new jobs, if they are all crap pay, the issue will never get resolved. Inflation and the cost of living must be factored into these decisions.

Like I said, a temporary, real economic action plan would involve stimulus from the private industry as well as public.

~Tenth

Household income is a reflection of a healthy economy. It is not the driving force behind a healthy economy.

Government is currently pumping billions into Wall Street, corporate entitlements, personal entitlements, giving us the illusion that the economy is recovering.

All the while undermining the very foundations that a true, honest economy rests on. It's another "bubble" that cannot be maintained for long.

(In my humble opinion)

I don't know why people don't see the need for austerity in order to fix the implications of that chart.

The chart shows that neither productivity, nor GDP/capita, but only household income was stagnating.

The reason is the process of ongoing globalization and internationalization of corporations, the privatization of their profits, and a downwards adaptation of wages to globalized cheap labor markets.

The countermeasure to this is Improvement of the economical and industrial location (infrastructure, high workforce quality) and to reward companies that honor their patriotic obligation, instead of corporations that move U.S. jobs abroad and profits into their own pockets.

Also, if you want wages adjusted, fix up the worker representatives and employer associations and have them work together in partnership.
Works pretty good here, but requires a solid basis for negotiations for the worker representatives first (good economical and industrial location).

The catch to this matter is that those measures cost money... money the U.S. doesn't have.
So, in order to invest into the United States as an economical location, they need to cut uncovered expenditure first (Austerity!), because you can't spend what you don't have...

I support cutting entitlements to the too big to fail. THEY ARE NOT TOO BIG TO FAIL. All those banks should have been allowed to crash.. they are not entitled to any bail out.

That is where the true entitlement is. In the super wealthy the ones who buy politicians and use economic manipulation to bring government to their knees. We should not allow them to be able to do that.

It appears some here have jobs but few appear to have ever been an employer but most really seem to be confused and not recognize the role of "Inflation" and how it comes about.

So as not to confuse anyone by listing all of the impacting factors, I will point out the one and most significant cause behind "Inflation" and the Buying Power of Dollars Earned; :THE PRINTING OF DOLLARS!

Certainly rising taxes pay a role in a wage earner having less money to buy things but, nothing has a greater impact upon the buying power of a Dollar than the Federal Reserve's Printing of Dollars (I am not talking about replacing damaged and destroyed dollars); I am talking about the Printing and Placing into Circulation of New Dollars. New Dollars that diminish the value (buying power) of existing Dollars in circulation.

If yesterday (for example) the total face amount of US Currency was $100 and today the Federal Reserve put into circulation an additional $10, the overall value of the Currency in circulation would have been reduced by 10%.

The fact that the Federal Government knows this and has not seized the Federal Reserve and Arrested all of its management should tell everyone just how corrupt and owned the US Federal Government is. At this moment, few individuals on planet earth actually knows the true value of the Dollar because the "Market" is being guided by the Supply and Demand Sides of the Market; e.g. What Suppliers and Buyers will pay for a product or resource but the under currents of what is happening can be seen in various places, e.g. a higher price for a container of coffee and that container also having less coffee in it.

This will not last for much longer. The Orchestrators of our demise are prepared to pull back the curtain and crash the US Dollar and subsequently all fiat currencies; at which time they will provide a solution to the problem they created by offering a no option conversation of Dollars to "Digital Currency". A digital currency that everyone will have to declare and convert their dollars to; a digital currency the Government will then be able to assess, tax and control at will. They are afraid of doing this because they have not yet disarmed the American Civilian Population and their Police and Control Grids will not be enough to restrain a pissed off population of gun toting vigilantes but they are working on it and the bunkers many of them will need to be living in.

Hell is coming children, are you ready?

reply to post by Mijamija

no one has mentioned ,nor does it seem like anyone wants to or is willing to address or debate the ONEthing that will end this countries finacial woes .FLAT TAX . for every one ,NO EXEPTIONS. even if the person is on public assistance. corporations or small buisness will recieve no tax breaks ,no individual will recieve tax breaks. that instantly closes all the loopholes across the board, and fixes our economy ,short term and long.

Originally posted by rcowboy
reply to post by Mijamija

 

no one has mentioned ,nor does it seem like anyone wants to or is willing to address or debate the ONEthing that will end this countries finacial woes .FLAT TAX . for every one ,NO EXEPTIONS. even if the person is on public assistance. corporations or small buisness will recieve no tax breaks ,no individual will recieve tax breaks. that instantly closes all the loopholes across the board, and fixes our economy ,short term and long.

Unfortunately, you are breathing from one of the left-right paradigm exhaust pipes which jumps right into the line of accepting and assuming upon us and our children debts created by the Government that are growing and have already exceeded GNP and the ability of Americans to ever repay. I appreciate your attempt at offering constructive input.

A Flat Tax would be fine were the Federal Government overhauled and run through a version of Bankruptcy that included but was not limited to the return of all public lands back to the people but it is far far more complicated than that since the US Government has nothing to back its currency; it has little if any Gold and Silver for example and has debts and debt obligations that go all the way back to King James....yes, we are paying the British Crown to this day for its interests in the Colonies.

Unfortunately, a flat tax would simply raise the price of everything for consumers; the super wealthy still can only eat so much steak, drink so much fine wine and drive expensive cars; a Flat Tax would put a direct burden upon the middle class and the poor if government subsidies were removed.

Additionally, a Flat Tax circumvents our Constitution and No Taxation Without Representation. I for one have long since done all in my power to limit the amount of funds out of my pocket that goes to this sick, corrupt, rotten Government and your Flat Tax would be just what they want...a direct means for collecting tax revenues they are not entitled to and use to further abuse and use it's citizens.

I have something else you might not be interested in but others might:

reply to post by tothetenthpower


What we are seeing in that graph is the death of the middle class. The 1% of our society has gone to great lengths to gut those beneath them. The demonization of unions, deregulation etc. was a powerful combination attack that knocked a good portion of the American population to their knees. The only protected jobs in America are those tied to Gov. spending, all other sources of income in America hemoraged as globalization opened the doors of cheap labor and incomes adjusted accordingly. Just look at how the word "socialism" has been sculpted into a weapon of fear in America. Who orchestrated all of this? its really not to hard to figure out...

the problem is not people paying more of what's left of their income in taxes. It's the FED. As long as we are paying interest on the non-existant made up money they are loaning us, we are never going to get out of debt. For a contact to be considered valid each party must have something to loose. It's called consideration. The FED's contract with the US is invalid because they have nothing to loose. The money they are printing is based on NOTHING- no gold- only the people of the United states that they hold as collateral to the loan. Can you be collateral for your own loan? Google how much of the national debt is interest payments on the loan from the FED for the money it gives us. Imagine how much good we could do if we did not have to make interest payments on the imaginary money the FED loans us...Imagine how much money you would have if you did not have to pay interest on your house or your car? Have you looked at your amortization schedule on your house? You are paying $200,000.00 interest on a $100,000.00 house. The USA's "house" is a lot more more expensive and the interest payments are a lot bigger. That is why we don't have any money for entitlements, welfare, salaries, infrastructure, and any other nice things in life anymore.