Physical Death. Let's Face It. Let's Discuss It.

Originally posted by dominicus
Where is this intention coming from? Theoretically there should be nothing or pure chaos. No intention, no order.

You need none. What you see is emergent behavior. Electrostatic forces work in a particular way, atoms possess certain attributes, Bob's your uncle. Nothing needs to exist that "intends" or "plans" or "creates order".

This is the point. We should be studying subjectivity, how it works, how inputs work, etc. Instead, science said the subject was pseudo/fringe, so we are only about 20-35 years old in the study of consciousness lagging behind everything else.

Not at all. Sensory perception and the nature of how humans process information is old old science, with many people working on it. It's an offshoot of experimental psychology, been around since the 1800's.

Subjectivity is how each individual operates and experiences reality, therefore it should be taken serious and included in all things science.

Good lord, no. Perception is a valid science - it's interesting to know how we process information, it reveals a lot about how we work internally and gives us information on how we tend to misinterpret things. But people are notoriously bad observers, most of science's basic framework exists to remove human error as much as possible.

What YOU'RE talking about isn't science, it's religion. That's where you want to go for people embracing perceptual error.

This is the frame of mind that has to be gotten rid of. That of "subjective experience" having no weight. Yet we all experience reality subjectively. Even when in science and conducting experiments, it's various subjects, getting together to form objective conclusions.

Subjective experience is a great start to piquing your curiosity about a subject. It's not so good for analyzing it.

Well of course there is a lack of data because of the bias.

The bias about wanting something provable?

That's all strict materialist "old guard" theory. It's on its way out. There are fresh new scientists discussing non-local consciousness and looking at the nano-particles of the brain as possibly the aspects which allow for consciousness to interact with physical matter. This ish is being taken very seriously in various. influential scientific circles.

Well, it's taken very seriously in woo circles. I guess if that's your thing, it would seem influential. I'm fine with people looking at that as a possible aspect of consciousness, if they can establish anything provable, repeatable, and real, then it'll bear looking into. Once the wishful, magical thinking bits have been weeded out, of course.

Doesn't prove anything. In various philosophies, one can increase the amount of remaining conscious through various experiences.

And in biology, one can decrease the amount of remaining consciousness through oxygen deprivation, glucose reduction, and alteration of ion channel activity.

Reminds me of when the beatles gave an indian guru a bunch of lsd and asked him how it was, but it didn't phase him because he was already in a high state of consciousness. I know another guy who reached a high state of consciousness and can literally drink gallons of spirits/shine/100+ proof liquors and he's perfectly fine and conscious. That would require a whole study of high level consciousness people and what influence insulin, etc has on them.

This is where subjective data is failing you. You believe what you want to believe, see what you expect to see. Drinking gallons of 100 proof liquor, much less with no effect? Sure. Sure he did.

Ego and animalism are the Bane of the human condition.

Not nearly as much as soggy thinking and religion.

Originally posted by karen61560
reply to post by Bedlam

 

You forget the participation of the sperm which is alive and has an agenda.

It has a tropism. I'll give you that. Agenda, not so much. Heck, it doesn't even contribute "energy" - it jettisons all its mitochondria and all you get are what was in the egg.

Originally posted by Night Star

As for near death experiences, there are intriguing and convincing cases. There was a child who met a deceased sibling that he never knew about. The parents were astonished.

And, no one had EVER mentioned this around the kid. Not the parents, not the relatives. Not once, not ever, and this was something that could be proven. Kids hear things, record them, process them later.

There are cases where the deceased knew what people were saying outside the operating room and knew what the doctors were doing and saying.

This is called the mystic sense of "hearing".

Oh Bedlam, you humor me deeply.

Unfortunately I think you've made your mind up so intently that it is no longer open to new ideas and direction.

Thanks for holding the contrast, but I think I'll move on. The Universe has taught me a lot more than "its all coincidence".

reply to post by fourthmeal


No, I LOVE new ideas. I just like my ideas to have some basis in reality.

reply to post by Bedlam

You need none. What you see is emergent behavior. Electrostatic forces work in a particular way, atoms possess certain attributes, Bob's your uncle. Nothing needs to exist that "intends" or "plans" or "creates order".

I'm still of the thought, that technically there should be nothing. Then all of sudden, we have something out of nothing that all evolves into this. The sheer odds of this boggle the mind. As to your statement above, no matter how much you attribute it all to emergent behavior, in that behavior, I can't help but see how beautiful and complex everything is designed. Everything ordered instead of chaos.

Not at all. Sensory perception and the nature of how humans process information is old old science, with many people working on it. It's an offshoot of experimental psychology, been around since the 1800's.

Neuroscientist describes the Bias and taboo-ness against Consciousness, that still exists within Scientific Acadamia

We have a Neuroscientist here, at the very forefront of Consciousness studies within Science, who has a first hand look of what's going on, and he's describing how there is still Scientists out there viewing Consciousness/Subjectivity as "Woo" and as result Science is moving slow and is in it's infancy in regards to what we know about Consciousness.

It's the whole "Woo" attitude that prevents growth & evolution in knowledge. Charlatans are the those who issue the "Woo" label an everything they don't understand.

"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as fraud" - C.G. Jung

What YOU'RE talking about isn't science, it's religion. That's where you want to go for people embracing perceptual error.

What aspect of religion are you referring to? Because there is the exoteric belief based. Then there is the esoteric experiential based. BIG/HUGE difference. And who says it's perceptual error?

People flock to religions because it's already built into the psyche/heart/intuition/subconscious, that we are merely parts of a Grander Whole. There is a built in, inner longing to reunite, with the Source.

There is a schism between the head, (logic & reason), and the psyche/heart/intuition/subconscious which is (Love, intuition, artistic creativity, and the access point for consciousness to reach it's source). This is ultimately why there is schism between science and religion.

Subjective experience is a great start to piquing your curiosity about a subject. It's not so good for analyzing it.

What I am saying, is that we need to study subjective experience itself, and analyze it, know it, figure it out. We are not "there" yet, and when we do get "there", science will eventually quantify consciousness as being non-local. I'm so sure of the inevitability, I'd stake everything I own and my own life on the betting table.

The bias about wanting something provable?

The bias about wanting something provable, if it disproves what many believe to be true. For example, Atheism is a majority view within academia. The study of consciousness is not touched upon by many, because this is where proof of non-local consciousness and it's source will come from, and quite a few folks know about this.

Well, it's taken very seriously in woo circles. I guess if that's your thing, it would seem influential. I'm fine with people looking at that as a possible aspect of consciousness, if they can establish anything provable, repeatable, and real, then it'll bear looking into. Once the wishful, magical thinking bits have been weeded out, of course.

I already covered the "woo" bit. It's woo that we should be studying. A horse-less carriage was considered "woo" a couple hundred years ago, and now we have combustion engines that rule over all transportation. The whole "woo" attitude creates bias. The guy who came up with the Em-Drive was labeled as "woo", and everyone was against him, until Chinese scientists took him serious and are now repeating his work. Also, the scientific method needs to be adjusted because it only accounts for repeatable results. already mentioned that some results, by their very nature, will never repeat (just like the double slit experiment giving two results based on whether or not there is an observer)

And in biology, one can decrease the amount of remaining consciousness through oxygen deprivation, glucose reduction, and alteration of ion channel activity.

Consciousness is not physical/biological.

Oh and the gallons of alcohol being drunk = many witnesses and not drunk all at once. It was over an all day all night bender.

A vid for you my friend:

reply to post by dominicus


You look at things and see God. I see physics.

As far as consciousness not being in the brain, I give you Phineas Gage.

reply to post by Bedlam

You look at things and see God. I see physics.

I look at things, and see Physics & God. The former has yet to catch up and explain the latter. 1 day it will

As far as consciousness not being in the brain, I give you Phineas Gage.

Gage doesn't matter. You give me Gage, and I can give you at least a dozen philosophical premises that predate Gage, that explain that personality is something constructed from childhood based on peers, parents, environment, etc etc ...

...yet prior to a personality being there, being constructed, what is in a newborn baby that is there from the get go? Awareness. A child is aware.

Are you not aware of your own personality? Just like an eye is not the same as what it see's, so too, the part of you that is aware of your personality, is not the personality.

On top of that, you give me 1 Gage, and I can give you hundreds/thousands of reported NDE experiences

Originally posted by dominicus

Gage doesn't matter. You give me Gage, and I can give you at least a dozen philosophical premises that predate Gage, that explain that personality is something constructed from childhood based on peers, parents, environment, etc etc ...

Sure it does - but it contradicts your argument so you wave it off. Premises be damned - here's a piece of hard evidence. There are many others like it. Personality may be constructed of this and that, but it's alterable with a slice of the scalpel, or in Gage's situation, a rod through the head.

Consciousness, like personality, is in the brain. Physically.

reply to post by Bedlam

Sure it does - but it contradicts your argument so you wave it off. Premises be damned - here's a piece of hard evidence. There are many others like it.

It doesn't contradict my argument at all, instead it supports that we are not our personalities, which are changeable, malleable, etc.

My personality was different when I was 5-6 years old, compared to teenager, compared to mid 30's. On top of that, plenty of people have had complete personality changes due to spiritual/mystical experiences, etc.

It's beautiful hard evidence, that supports at least 1 half of those "damned premises,", that we are not our personalities ...the second half being that we are that which is aware of the personality.

Personality may be constructed of this and that, but it's alterable with a slice of the scalpel, or in Gage's situation, a rod through the head.

That's fine

Consciousness, like personality, is in the brain. Physically.

Aside from your statement above being theory, I would like for you, if at all possible, to go ahead and list the book or study where this has been proven as scientific fact. I'll leave you with plenty of time to respond to this request.......

Originally posted by Bedlam
reply to post by dominicus

 

You look at things and see God. I see physics.

I see a materialist trapped in a materialist box closed off from everything except the pseudo-safety of the materialist's paradigm.

Enjoy ...as best you can. [sigh]

reply to post by dominicus


I have many mixed feelings on this touchy subject.

I am afraid to die, but not because I personally don't want to face death... but I know I haven't fulfilled my purpose yet, and I don't even know for sure what it is. Not to mention, I have a lot of loved ones, and I think dying would be rather selfish on my part, because it would hurt all of them.

I have had three near-death experiences in the past couple years, and it's made me think a lot. Once I was hit by a police man going 60 mph, once my friend and I were nearly t-boned on the main road, and once, my fiance and some friends and I got caught up trespassing on someone else's property, and the property owners showed up and threatened to kill us. That last one was definitely the scariest of the three... I was playing through my mind how I would have to whip out my pocket knife, how I would have to move, and how I could run away. I even contemplated jumping out the window and crippling myself to escape them long enough to use my phone to call the police. We were on the second story of an abandoned and falling-apart building.

That was the most frightening thing I ever experienced.

Still, I don't think I've had enough near-death experiences (sounds weird, don't it?) because I still have a tendency to take things in life for granted. I catch myself doing it, and I always try to stop myself from thinking that way.

I feel quite numb half the time, like life never ends, even after death.

Ever hear the song "Life is Beautiful?"

That song defines the way I feel. It takes a funeral to make me feel alive.

My Grandmother died a couple months ago, and it hit me really hard... huge wake-up call. She died the day after my mother and I left from visiting her. We showed up a few days later for her funeral, and the whole thing was surreal. I was standing there, watching all of her family talking, and my Grandfather was holding a little wooden box containing her ashes.

Just a week earlier, I gave her a hug good bye, and told her I loved her.

It was mind boggling to see her ashes in a box so shortly afterwards.

And, it was also a big red-flag reminder; You don't live forever!

It was the first time in a long time I felt really profound, meaningful emotions. And it was the first time in quite a while that I actually cried.

So, slowly but surely, I'm attempting to force myself to "live each day like my last." There's nothing I hate more than regret and guilt, and the thought of dying with those feelings makes me physically sick.

God help us not to forget not to regret.

Originally posted by XxNightAngelusxX

I have many mixed feelings on this touchy subject.

I am afraid to die, but not because I personally don't want to face death... but I know I haven't fulfilled my purpose yet, and I don't even know for sure what it is.

You don't need to and you will die when the plan you made before your incarnation demands it.

Not to mention, I have a lot of loved ones, and I think dying would be rather selfish on my part, because it would hurt all of them.

They'll live.

It's a required part of their plans that you die. In effect, you will be doing them a favor.

reply to post by MUness

It's a required part of their plans that you die. In effect, you will be doing them a favor.

What do you mean by this?

Originally posted by XxNightAngelusxX
reply to post by MUness

 

It's a required part of their plans that you die. In effect, you will be doing them a favor.

What do you mean by this?

Everyone participates in their pre-birth planning. Soul groups align their plans so to meet and service each others needs for spiritual growth.

Certain things are going to happen in life no matter what, such as death.
Other things are easy to put off, like vacuuming your house.
The quicker you vacuum your house, the more time you have to enjoy a clean house without the stress of having to vacuum.

On the idea of fearing death, is there something to gain from struggling with this final act?
Seems like one of those things, that you should just accept, not because it is better for you, but also because, you simply have to, or you can struggle and suffer, if that is what you wish.

Does your mind think itself to be more important than fate? Have you convinced yourself of the pain you're quite sure you will feel by having to leave your pitiful worldly possessions behind? Who or what is greater than that final destination? My greatest fear is insulting god in that final moment by clinging to my body instead of his truth.

In Edo, during the time of samurai warriors, it is written that a true stalwart is a man that does well at the time of death. Since reading this, I've resolved myself to having courage at the time of death, and placing all doubts and concerns in to the hands of God.

Don't forget;
Angels of death smite there faces as they rip the souls up through the neck, out of the bodies of unbelievers upon death.

Originally posted by KapablankaDon't forget;
Angels of death smite there faces as they rip the souls up through the neck, out of the bodies of unbelievers upon death.

Naw, you're making things up now. The spirits report exactly the opposite.

reply to post by dominicus


Excerpt from Divine Dynamite
Such Raw Beauty
February 13th, 2013

There's a heart-aching so sharp, so sweet and so bottomless, that both shatters and reassembles us. Such terrible beauty accompanies it, such fathomless yearning, such exquisitely painful gratitude. Endless is this beauty. Upon its shores we break and spill, emptied of the familiarity that self-centers our days and ways.

So very soon we are gone, like dreams vanishing before morning's habits. Did we leave a mark? Only wingprints in endless sky, tracing evaporating goodbyes. Tombstones soon but stardust. Life is our signature, scrawled by the infinitely varied shape-takings of the Real. Such raw beauty, beauty to die for, beauty both to bow to and to be, beauty that simultaneously outlives and is us.

Death makes Life worth living. Death makes beauty unspeakably obvious. Death makes Love unsurpassably important. Death wakes us up. What better ally could we have than Death? Death gives all the same opportunity. Death leaves no one out.

Life is, among other things, a Near-Death Experience. The passing of all things breaks our heart open to what matters most of all. Only through intimacy with Death do we find intimacy with the Deathless.

Gazing into soft blue sky, dissolving in its boundless embrace, cradling each of its clouds, whether weeping or thundering or dancing. Beauty beyond beauty coupling with undisturbable peace, through their succulent embrace revealing — not explaining, but revealing — that each moment contains all moments. This the deep lovers cannot help but recognize, as they die into joy, surrendering their all to the Beloved until they are but clearings for that One. Naked openness, owned by none and belonging to all.

Avoiding Death kills us. Are we not, when we truly tire of doing time and redecorating our cells, dying to live? Dying to really live, to fully live? Dying to stop pretending we are not pretending? Dying to at last enter and fully, fully embody the Life we were born to live?

Such dying is but birth, a labor of love, a making room for a deeper Life. The tenderest upstart green cracks and splits open the concrete sea upon which we are shipwrecked. The messy ecstasy of birth unravels our straitjacketed identity. We bleed and soar, waves breaking on ever-virgin shore, dying into the Undying.

Silence is our witness. Silence has seen it all. Silence cradles our pain until its ache wakes us.

Death doesn't happen to Life. Death serves Life. The beauty of it all, the hyperbole-transcending majesty and wonder of it all, both brings us to our knees and wings us. We go from survival to living, and from living to being lived, and from being lived to Being, losing everything along the way except what most matters.

Loss breaks open the heart, dissolving its armoring. Loss gives beauty its true depth. Death is the mother of loss.

The blue fire of the dying poet's eyes makes ruggedly transparent art of his ravaged face. He cries out, his hoarsely impassioned words the last sigh of a vagabond wave, seafoam dying on some midnight beach. His freedom is in having no choice. His love empties his mind and leaves his body see-through. His final poem is an infinitely sadhappy smile as he freefalls into Death.

And what is his message for us? Let go, let your heart break, let your life be beauty made visible, let all things awaken you, let your life be Poetry, the music of Truth, the epiphanously idiosyncratic soulsong of significance.

And all the words die so, so soon in an avalanche of Silence, their sound and meaning and audience gone. But how they danced in their bright sliver of a moment! And how we danced and loved and wept and blazed in our brief time!

The door is, as always, already open. Openness awaiting openness. The Invitation that will not go away. We are dying to live. Let us not wait any longer. Let us do what it takes. There are not higher stakes.

Excerpt from Divine Dynamite: Entering Awakening's Heartland

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