Surely Africa should adopt European/Western ideals/values or at least redefine African values?

I suggest you research quite a lot of civilised west was invented by blacks, take for example shoes, knife and forks, open heart surgery, the computer and its advancement, and so on. If I were a black doctor I'd save tons and go back to Africa and start a school for doctors. They don't do this however. What I mean is Africa is in a grid lock. And lies spun and so forth. I don't think charities that claim to help Africa actually do. Cos they should be getting a lot of money. But instead they are still suffering. People are not being told the truth as usual. So Africa could easily produce the same level of academics, scientists etc as the west but the power structure doesn't want them to. My great grandad was a normal medical doctor and also a witch doctor , not a voodoo one, but a herbalist . He lived in Africa . It is possible for Africans to keep their tradition and adopt a western one too.

I agree in principle. Africa should adopt some ideals of western culture and merge them with their own. There is a reason why western culture is the most developed. Asian countries are heavily westernised already, and they are some of the fastest growing developing nations ever. I also dont like when judging cultures is somehow painted as racist or bigoted, because thats nonsense. We are not talking about race, and culture is just a collection of customs and attitudes. Those are certainly valid targets for judgement.

reply to post by Maslo

You know,i mostly look at the world we have to live in, from an angle that originates from a "worldview" informed more by the metaphysical than the physical world.I have to say: "All good and well,but What is wrong with being happy with a simple life,and being satisfied with what you have,even if it is little?"

We revere the Dalai Lama for being so serene,but Africa is the only place where i have glimpsed TRUE SERENITY,TRUE GRACE,right in real life,not from a pic or quote from the Lama..You find it among warm-hearted,down to earth,strong people,who for the most are satisfied with the close-to-nature,simple lives they have.And have not much desire to be great,but just to BE.The world,the frenzied ratrace world the others in the world live in,dont touch you in Africa,unless you want to be part of it.In that case,there are many bustling,vibrant cities,including Universities,where "instinctive scholars" those who have a burning passion for learning,will learn,and better themselves academically.

They can better themselves academically,SO CAN PROPABLY 75% OF AMERICAN SCHOOLSTUDENTS.Or am i mistaken? I dont think so.
Im not quarelling,just throwing an idea out there-one of the most important lessons a soul has to learn,is to be at peace,to be satisfied with what you have.Its already a long-established way of life here,even lil kiddies got it down pat.
There is too much of this world that is developed and sophisticated and in fact polluted and scarcely tenable to live in already.There has to be Balance.

reply to post by Raxoxane

We revere the Dalai Lama for being so serene,but Africa is the only place where i have glimpsed TRUE SERENITY,TRUE GRACE,right in real life,not from a pic or quote from the Lama..You find it among warm-hearted,down to earth,strong people,who for the most are satisfied with the close-to-nature,simple lives they have.

Thats thought-provoking, but try not to idealise the place too much. Here is a map of world happiness:

Clicky

Originally posted by FreedomEntered
I suggest you research quite a lot of civilised west was invented by blacks, take for example shoes, knife and forks, open heart surgery, the computer and its advancement, and so on. If I were a black doctor I'd save tons and go back to Africa and start a school for doctors. They don't do this however. What I mean is Africa is in a grid lock. And lies spun and so forth. I don't think charities that claim to help Africa actually do. Cos they should be getting a lot of money. But instead they are still suffering. People are not being told the truth as usual. So Africa could easily produce the same level of academics, scientists etc as the west but the power structure doesn't want them to. My great grandad was a normal medical doctor and also a witch doctor , not a voodoo one, but a herbalist . He lived in Africa . It is possible for Africans to keep their tradition and adopt a western one too.

I especially liked your example of the black doctor going back to Africa and starting up a school of doctors. Certainly some do. But it is a very good - because, if you look at many African countries, they have the potential to be regions of big boom, much like the US in the height of railways and building of great cities and whatnot. It would be very empowering.

However, the reality of it is that security is a great issue. Why would I, being born in Europe with such advanced technology and society, desire to go to unstable regions? The truth of the matter is that self-interest does come into play. But of course, if there was some sort of great African consciousness and motivation, where every Black African across the planet thought "strive for the cause", "make Africa great", "ensure the supremacy of the Black African" - then we would see such schools being set up by Western-educated people, much like it occurs in China.

I guess I am being impatient and have impatient ambition. Maybe such things are occurring like China, but on a much slower schedule?

If I could, I would go to Africa and make it great - but there is only so much one man can do. And I prefer to live in a European society... :sigh:

Originally posted by HomoSapiensSapiens

Originally posted by FreedomEntered
I suggest you research quite a lot of civilised west was invented by blacks, take for example shoes, knife and forks, open heart surgery, the computer and its advancement, and so on. If I were a black doctor I'd save tons and go back to Africa and start a school for doctors. They don't do this however. What I mean is Africa is in a grid lock. And lies spun and so forth. I don't think charities that claim to help Africa actually do. Cos they should be getting a lot of money. But instead they are still suffering. People are not being told the truth as usual. So Africa could easily produce the same level of academics, scientists etc as the west but the power structure doesn't want them to. My great grandad was a normal medical doctor and also a witch doctor , not a voodoo one, but a herbalist . He lived in Africa . It is possible for Africans to keep their tradition and adopt a western one too.

I especially liked your example of the black doctor going back to Africa and starting up a school of doctors. Certainly some do. But it is a very good - because, if you look at many African countries, they have the potential to be regions of big boom, much like the US in the height of railways and building of great cities and whatnot. It would be very empowering.

However, the reality of it is that security is a great issue. Why would I, being born in Europe with such advanced technology and society, desire to go to unstable regions? The truth of the matter is that self-interest does come into play. But of course, if there was some sort of great African consciousness and motivation, where every Black African across the planet thought "strive for the cause", "make Africa great", "ensure the supremacy of the Black African" - then we would see such schools being set up by Western-educated people, much like it occurs in China.

I guess I am being impatient and have impatient ambition. Maybe such things are occurring like China, but on a much slower schedule?

If I could, I would go to Africa and make it great - but there is only so much one man can do. And I prefer to live in a European society... :sigh:

You know,....I understand where you're coming from. I was born in Europe and partly grew up there. My most immediate family escaped Communism and we lived in Germany and then moved to the U.S. by choice. We knew that our former country could be great if certain people were not in power, but we could not go back in fear of being thrown in jail for leaving in the first place. It was not safe to go back. It took 15 years for us to be able to return once we had our U.S. citizenship and passports,... and even then we wondered what might happen. After having a taste of what's out there in the world, we did not want to go back to live there because we experienced a culture clash. Although we wanted so badly to help these people, their attitudes of "that's impossible" and "you can't do that here" was driving us crazy (and to some extent it still does). It takes true self-sacrifice to want to go into that country and fight the opposition of the masses even if all you want for them are good things. They endured a lifetime of despair and mediocrity and have learned to cope with it by simply doing only enough to survive and not much more. The older generation is slowly dying and a new generation is rising. This new generation has experienced slightly more freedom. They are now free to travel to other parts of the world to work and study. Those who can afford it, do. Those who can't try to make the best of what they have at home. They were making great progress up until the recent elections when the older generation decided to vote (if it wasn't rigged in the first place) for politicians with Socialist ideals. This older generation doesn't know how to cope with capitalism and ambition, so they cowered back to the old ways where someone would be there to ensure they always had just barely enough to survive.

Basically what I'm saying is that it takes a special kind of person to go back and fight for the well-being of their fellow countrymen, even despite them fighting him/her the whole way. You would be risking your very life by returning to some regions and there is the possibility of failure. Most people have your attitude..... "what can one person do?" The truth is that one person can do a LOT, it depends on how they go about it. This is why some parts of the world will have to live through decades, maybe even through centuries of despair.

One way to go about it is to unite outside the borders of Africa first, and descend upon it when you have enough individuals and resources willing to (metaphorically) fight for the cause.

This graph demonstrates that the more "financial aid" (welfare) was given to Africa, the poorer it got.
All monetary aid should be scrapped and replaced with education. That education should only be given when asked for. We should stop ALL intervention and ALL talking about what Africans "should" and "shouldnt" do, by what values they "should" and "shouldnt" live. Africans ought to define their country and values for themselves. That will lead to them developing more of their own unique cultrue.

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens


Yep, people dont want to risk it . Well, maybe this is why you find famous white people adopting black peoples or what ever else. Maybe they want to encourage these kids to go back and help the region. To try to at least.

The issue also is that there is snobbery amoungst black people. Folk forget this, its just like any other society. Where the upper echelons cant really be bothered to sort out the lower classes.

I mean Im sure in many cities in Africa, there are great minds. And from what my african family have said, there is a great divide between rich and poor there now.

I dont think you are listening, the issue isnt education. There are tons who have education and no jobs for example. Apparently, this is how bad it is. If someone has a degree they are given a job as a cleaner, also check this ...a peice of bread is a million in their money. Not literally but it is alot. Thats how much they mess with Africans economy.

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens


The reason African cultures are at this stage IS BECAUSE OF EXTERNAL INFLUENCE that has been put on them, yet you want to make them into something else.

Look how African American is adjusting to "European" lifestyles, even that small change took about 350yrs.

You can' t make someone into something, it will revert, with a pendulum effect.

Last thing i want to experience is "European" lifestyles when i go tour to Africa.

reply to post by luciddream


lol i agree let fishes be in the ponds they should be. It is actually unfair to kidnap people and move them into the climate that isnt suited to their nature.

A mix of west and african would be quite nice actually.

Maybe we should adopt some of theirs.

Originally posted by FreedomEntered
reply to post by luciddream

 

lol i agree let fishes be in the ponds they should be. It is actually unfair to kidnap people and move them into the climate that isnt suited to their nature.

A mix of west and African would be quite nice actually.

In my opinion, When a Brit go to Africa to live, i want him to be Brit living in Africa but follow African culture as a Brit. There is a way to Co-exist and keep your culture and respect native culture.

When one try to impose or force something else, that is when it does not work well.

Well I admit I am somewhat ignorant about African culture.

You say African culture yet Africa is a continent made up of many different countries. Are we therefore to assume that there is one single overriding African culture?

I wouldn't say there is a single European culture. Although there are similarities there are certainly many nuances and differences among various countries.

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens


The things that you are seeing that you consider to be benefiting humanity may lead to our eventual downfall. Our bioshpere in on the brink of collapse because of our technological achievement. Many shamanic type cultures are more advanced than our own. It depends on what criteria you use to judge

Africa is the motherland of all human beings. You are looking at a different culutre and calibrating is against Western culture. What does that achieve. Put Einstein in the middle of the Kalahari desert next to a bush man and see who survives the longest. I know where my bet would be.

Many great things have come out of Africa. Much of it is discredited by Western culture. Have a look at Islamic mathematics for example. Have a look at the great cities and civilizations that have existed in the past there.

As for the aid. You should have a good hard look at the banking system that is in place and the likes of the IMF the World Bank and the World Trade Organisation. They are complicit in keeping poor countries poor and rich ones rich. If the like of the CIA kept there greedy little fingers out and stopped destabilising countries I am sure things might be a lot different there now. Many African countries are kept poor so the resources can be stripped out cheaply.

s

Originally posted by HomoSapiensSapiens
African countries go back and forth and unfortunately, we do not see much contribution to human advancement. (Put it this way, if all Sub-Saharan Africans (not the region, the people - because if the region vanished, humanity would be in deep sh1t) were to suddenly vanish, would it really affect the progress of humanity? Unfortunately, not in the least - possibly even on the contrary.

.

The thing is the answer is a big YES YES YES if that happened it WOULD affect the progress of humanity.

Whose standards are you judging by ? - yours ? mine ? the MSM ? the indoctrination we get drip fed via the education system ?

I am not some wet liberal but i appreciate the African people and I am glad that they are here with all of us working towards the progress of humananity. Hand in hand.

However - what I class as progress many would not. For example, I love kindness, laughter, and I think we need to go back to a time period whereby we actually made things, you know the time before 'call centres' and ;marketing and career politicians.

I want us to go back towards old fashioned values, at the same time I want us to live and let live.

The African people, [as have all of us], but particularly in recent centuries, the African people, have suffered greatly on many levels. It will not always be like this.

Please don't judge Africa by the standards of materialism and greed that the West seem so attached to.

We need a strong Africa a proud Africa, and an Africa where the people can build good productive lives.

I must also add an Africa where her people and her beautiful animals are valued and allowed to live without fear.

Sometimes we have to fight for these things, with love not violence of course.

You know we chip, chip, chip away at that boulder and it seems immovable, until one fine day it cracks right open and the sun shines through.

Peace.

Surely this is a troll thread.

If not, the OP is the product of an Imperial Education; an education system that teaches white Europeans created, invented and discovered everything.

He must have such feelings of little self worth that he blindly accepts the introduction of the printing press (by Europeans) as the origin of all facts that MUST be believed.

Dig a little deeper and we see that Vedic cultures developed maths.... for example the English speaking world uses the Hindu-Arabic notation.
Darwin didnt invent evolution he simply expanded on the work of his father who spent most of his time studying the work of Al Jahiz ( a half East African, half arabic scholar).

Think about this rationally and you'll see that most intellectual feats are in fact just advancement of work done by previous scholars.

Yes, the industrial farming of people ( a la Europe) does provide a more fertile ground for specialised education but please dont think for a second that virtually every European achievement ever is based on the work of those before them.

(You do know Europe was probably under a couple metres of Ice when the wheel was first developed....without the wheel we wouldnt have the Space Shuttle.??)

As an example...how would Europeans have known about Building and Structural physics 12000 years ago when they were at the end of a very long ice age.
Instead of building things like Gobelki Tepe these Northern Europan "survivalists - very similar to todays sub saharan survivalists, were in a hostile place concentrating on surviving.

Humans are Humans..there is no such thing as a "pure breed" and we are the combined output of our evolutionary journey.

Get a grip but more importantly, get on Wikipedia and do some research.... the biggest dissapointment from Sub Sahran Africa I've seen recently is your brainwashed attitude.

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens


I must ask - sorry if I have missed it, have you actually been to Africa, if so where?

I have been to North Africa twice and Southern Africa once. I want to go to Botswana and Namibia - they are high up on my list of places to go.

Also I have worked with many, many African people and have over the years had many friends and positive experiences with those of whom you speak so negatively.

What you are seeing is a smokescreen - look deeper !

In my last post I was not saying that everything is hunky dory in Africa, It is not, but with work and perseverance things can change and if the will is there, it will happen. It will not be an IF but a WHEN.

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens


First off, there is no such thing as 'African Culture' nor is there such a thing as 'European Culture' - both are continents comprised of a number of countries, each with their various cultures and histories. Very few are alike. The concept of a united Europe and its realization is a relatively recent concept and is in many ways dark and corrupt.

In respect of Africa as a whole, one of the reasons why there are the problem which arise as they do on a regular basis, is less to do with the 'Africans' themselves, but the situation in multiple cases, of historic rape of resources and control by these same European countries that you praise so much. Rape that is ongoing even as we speak and serves as the engine room so to speak of many countries economies.

You may be of African descent but it seems you don't know Africa as a continent very well. There are many laudable aspects to multiple African countries - people are less materialistic as a whole and when they are, they are copying Western cultures.

I'd actually argue the reverse: If European countries emulated African countries cultures, then we'd see many positive changes for the better.

Don't judge Africa by what its forced to become. You see the consequences of colonial domination for centuries and say 'There, they can't even run an effective economy. They should emulate us." And then go an post on a forum without understanding the most basic history of the continent.

I don't think there's even a question here, of course they should. You want to see what happens when "African culture" takes over? Look at Zimbabwe. Somalia. Ethiopia. And don't start on with colonial apologism, it's got nothing to do with that. Let's take Rhodesia as an excellent example here. Now, Rhodesia, what's now Zimbabwe has massive natural resources. Chromium, iron, coal, gold, whatever.

In 1980, Robert Mugabe's ZANU took control of the country, inheriting one of the most advanced economies in Africa. What happened then? A series of economic missteps and failed policies resulting in amazing hyperinflation, resulting in Zimbabwe being ranked #227 out of 228 countries in the CIA World Factbook, with a per-capita GDP less than that of $500. That puts Zimbabwe behind such economic powerhouses as North Korea and Haiti (both of which are estimated at more than double the Zimbabwean numbers).

You'll notice a distinct trend when looking at development indexes and economies in Africa: the more "westernized" a country is, the higher it's ranked. Countries like South Africa, while still quite poor and violent, consistently appear higher on every ranking system for basic human needs than places like Zimbabwe or Ethiopia, where the colonial system simply collapsed with no handover of power to the "natives" (I use that word very lightly, as I figure an Afrikaner is just as native as a Zulu at this point).

I disagree. I read about 2 paragraphs into your post before dry heaving.

Neither Africa nor any other continent adopt ways that are opposing their true existence. No way are you 100% African or you would see the degradation to a Native society when they attempt to adopt foreign ways. Matter of fact, much of the decay of African is due to Western influence AND attempting to adopt the ways of an oppressor. This is not a judgement against Western society but it is an indictment against some segments attempting to lord their ways over another population. And said ways are deemed rightful and fruitful.

Perhaps other than societies should just stay out of Africa?