Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?

Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?

www.youtube.com...

I have always had a problem with the notion that God would have hardened Pharaoh’s soft heart and pave the way for him to kill/murder the first born of Egypt. For God to do so would have been evil indeed.

Do you think that science has explained the purported miracles as natural phenomena?

From what I can see, the Jews who wrote the story did not take it literally.

www.raceandhistory.com...

Should Christians recognize the O T stories as natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?

Regards
DL

The Egyptians kept pretty good records of their history. According to them, their hard labor (like with the pyramids) were done with paid workers and not slaves.

I've always found it interesting that the Egyptians never, ever, not even once, mention that thousands of Jews just upped and left during the middle of work, and that the pharoah's men drowned in a sea that was parted by Moses.

You'd think they would at least mention that somewhere.

The exodus is considered a work of fiction with no documentation to back it up...

Finkelstein and Silberman point out that there is still no evidence for the existence of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Lot, Moses, and Joshua. There is no evidence that Jewish people existed as an identified people that were enslaved in Egypt. There is no evidence that over 600,000 men (plus women and children - the number could have been over a million) had an exodus from Egypt and wandered in the desert for 40 years. According to the Bible, 38 of these 40 years were actually spent encamped at Kadesh-barnea. This area has been turned upside down for decades, looking for even a tiny piece of pottery from this supposed time. It is not likely that this many people would have lived here this long and not left archeological evidence.

The Exodus Myth

Note that this is only one link of MANY. Do your own research, and decide for yourself.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Should Christians recognize the O T stories as natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?

Depends on the OT story.

Adam and Eve ... 'borrowed' from the Summerians and re-written from a Jewish point of view.

Noahs Ark .. 'borrowed' from the Summerians and re-written from a Jewish point of view.

The Psalms ... some 'borrowed' from the (older) Egyptian temples and re-written giving credit to David.

Abraham ... probably true BUT it was written from a peasant point of view. The dude heard voices telling him to kill his child, and so he tried to. That's not sane. But he convinced those around him that God wanted him to kill his kid and then changed his mind at the last minute .. so it makes him look like a hero instead of a mad man. So I think the basic facts are true, but then the religious stuff got tossed in by the wide eyed peasants of the day ...

The Exodus ... written from the Jewish peasant point of view. The story leaves more questions than answers. For example ... if all those Jews were slaves upon leaving Egypt, then where did they get the gold to make their idol statue? The leaders of Egypt were all set to let the Jews leave, but then suddenly they decided to hunt them down and chase them at great expense. Was it because the Jews LOOTED EGYPT before leaving? Is that where they got the gold and is that why the Egyptians changed their minds and suddenly chased them across the desert??

The book of Daniel ... I'm actually thinking much of it is true. Others can accept or reject it as they wish, but I get the feeling it's probably mostly true.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?

www.youtube.com...

I have always had a problem with the notion that God would have hardened Pharaoh’s soft heart and pave the way for him to kill/murder the first born of Egypt. For God to do so would have been evil indeed.
Do you think that science has explained the purported miracles as natural phenomena?
From what I can see, the Jews who wrote the story did not take it literally.
www.raceandhistory.com...
Should Christians recognize the O T stories as natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
Regards
DL

What if one were to read the Book of Isaiah and every word is the exact reversal of what it means? It might shed some light.

reply to post by Greatest I am

I have always had a problem with the notion that God would have hardened Pharaoh’s soft heart and pave the way for him to kill/murder the first born of Egypt. For God to do so would have been evil indeed.

As I've told you before.... You being a gnostic Christian, you should know the answer to this...

OT God was the original biblical terrorist...

Things hidden in silence

I happen to think that the Exodus was natural and perceived by an ancient people as having been supernatural. After all, back then if anything unusual happened, it tended to be credited to the divine.

And before any hardcore believers jump on me, claiming that I am undermining religion or furthering secular humanism. I happen to believe in God and believe that his word is true - particularly the Pentateuch. I just also happen to think that God created a set of rules that we perceive as reality and that, when interacting with our reality, he follows the rules himself. Science has gone a long way to show that we can understand much of what, just a hundred or two hundred years ago, was totally unfathomable.

~Heff

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
The Egyptians kept pretty good records of their history. According to them, their hard labor (like with the pyramids) were done with paid workers and not slaves.

I've always found it interesting that the Egyptians never, ever, not even once, mention that thousands of Jews just upped and left during the middle of work, and that the pharoah's men drowned in a sea that was parted by Moses.

You'd think they would at least mention that somewhere.

If you watch that horribly long link, you will see that they did. Try at about 1.05.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Klassified
The exodus is considered a work of fiction with no documentation to back it up...

Finkelstein and Silberman point out that there is still no evidence for the existence of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Lot, Moses, and Joshua. There is no evidence that Jewish people existed as an identified people that were enslaved in Egypt. There is no evidence that over 600,000 men (plus women and children - the number could have been over a million) had an exodus from Egypt and wandered in the desert for 40 years. According to the Bible, 38 of these 40 years were actually spent encamped at Kadesh-barnea. This area has been turned upside down for decades, looking for even a tiny piece of pottery from this supposed time. It is not likely that this many people would have lived here this long and not left archeological evidence.

The Exodus Myth

Note that this is only one link of MANY. Do your own research, and decide for yourself.

There may be some history to the myth as that clip clearly shows but I read it as allegory. To me Moses is just an archetype. Just like Jesus is.

Jewish writers seemed to do that. There are connections being made between the N T and The War of the Jews in this same way.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Should Christians recognize the O T stories as natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?

Depends on the OT story.

Adam and Eve ... 'borrowed' from the Summerians and re-written from a Jewish point of view.

Noahs Ark .. 'borrowed' from the Summerians and re-written from a Jewish point of view.

The Psalms ... some 'borrowed' from the (older) Egyptian temples and re-written giving credit to David.

Abraham ... probably true BUT it was written from a peasant point of view. The dude heard voices telling him to kill his child, and so he tried to. That's not sane. But he convinced those around him that God wanted him to kill his kid and then changed his mind at the last minute .. so it makes him look like a hero instead of a mad man. So I think the basic facts are true, but then the religious stuff got tossed in by the wide eyed peasants of the day ...

The Exodus ... written from the Jewish peasant point of view. The story leaves more questions than answers. For example ... if all those Jews were slaves upon leaving Egypt, then where did they get the gold to make their idol statue? The leaders of Egypt were all set to let the Jews leave, but then suddenly they decided to hunt them down and chase them at great expense. Was it because the Jews LOOTED EGYPT before leaving? Is that where they got the gold and is that why the Egyptians changed their minds and suddenly chased them across the desert??

The book of Daniel ... I'm actually thinking much of it is true. Others can accept or reject it as they wish, but I get the feeling it's probably mostly true.

edit on 2/4/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

Perhaps but not literal unless you believe in a ten headed monster. I hope not.
It may hold some truth but should be read as a myth with meaning.

We all get lost in the inconsistencies and oddities of the way the myths are written and try to make them conform to reality when they may have been written to conform to another type of reality.
IOW, they may have a deeper spiritual meaning.

This clip speaks to some of the more esoteric meanings and if you look at what the other older religions were doing, it lines up.

www.youtube.com...

Please check the linl in the post above as well.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?

www.youtube.com...

I have always had a problem with the notion that God would have hardened Pharaoh’s soft heart and pave the way for him to kill/murder the first born of Egypt. For God to do so would have been evil indeed.
Do you think that science has explained the purported miracles as natural phenomena?
From what I can see, the Jews who wrote the story did not take it literally.
www.raceandhistory.com...
Should Christians recognize the O T stories as natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
Regards
DL

What if one were to read the Book of Isaiah and every word is the exact reversal of what it means? It might shed some light.

Being a Gnostic Christian, I have little problem doing so for some scriptures but I have not tried that there.

Said of Gnostic and Christian reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I do it more for moral aspects and not so much for mythical chronology.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I have always had a problem with the notion that God would have hardened Pharaoh’s soft heart and pave the way for him to kill/murder the first born of Egypt. For God to do so would have been evil indeed.

As I've told you before.... You being a gnostic Christian, you should know the answer to this...

OT God was the original biblical terrorist...

Things hidden in silence

I have my fair share of answers but if I idol worship them I would be no better than Christian idol worshipers. Or you. Some things may have more than one answer.

In esoteric terms this guy thinks that no first born died as it is all in the mind ---- the first born is when the third eye opens ----- and I lean towards that.

www.youtube.com...

I will go check that link of yours.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

I have my fair share of answers but if I idol worship them I would be no better than Christian idol worshipers. Or you.

Would you mind explaining that little comment?

Originally posted by Hefficide

I happen to think that the Exodus was natural and perceived by an ancient people as having been supernatural. After all, back then if anything unusual happened, it tended to be credited to the divine.

And before any hardcore believers jump on me, claiming that I am undermining religion or furthering secular humanism. I happen to believe in God and believe that his word is true - particularly the Pentateuch. I just also happen to think that God created a set of rules that we perceive as reality and that, when interacting with our reality, he follows the rules himself. Science has gone a long way to show that we can understand much of what, just a hundred or two hundred years ago, was totally unfathomable.

~Heff

I see some of the Godheads inspiration going into some of the writings but mostly think that the ancients were brighter than we think. It is only that today we have a bitch of a time trying to think as they did and all the modifications, re-writes and interpretation of words we have put to these old text make then damned near intelligible in any reasonable way.

Hence the various Jewish, Christian and Muslim cults that all come out of the same history of writings.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I have my fair share of answers but if I idol worship them I would be no better than Christian idol worshipers. Or you.

Would you mind explaining that little comment?

Just that we should all retain some flexibility and be prepared to admit we were wrong on something.

Most of us are fundamental to the way we think and it is like pulling teeth to get any of us to change our minds. We idol worship what we think we know IOW.

Proof.
When was the last time someone you changed your mind about any of your fundamental beliefs?
The same with me. It has been a long time.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I have my fair share of answers but if I idol worship them I would be no better than Christian idol worshipers. Or you.

Would you mind explaining that little comment?

Just that we should all retain some flexibility and be prepared to admit we were wrong on something.

Most of us are fundamental to the way we think and it is like pulling teeth to get any of us to change our minds. We idol worship what we think we know IOW.

Proof.
When was the last time someone you changed your mind about any of your fundamental beliefs?
The same with me. It has been a long time.

Regards
DL

I wouldn't say we worship our beliefs... Well at least I don't, but I don't know about others...

Why should we not hold fast to our beliefs... at least until a greater truth is presented?

The only thing not changing my mind on my beliefs proves is my conviction...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I have always had a problem with the notion that God would have hardened Pharaoh’s soft heart and pave the way for him to kill/murder the first born of Egypt. For God to do so would have been evil indeed.

As I've told you before.... You being a gnostic Christian, you should know the answer to this...

OT God was the original biblical terrorist...

Things hidden in silence

I checked your link but had no comment . Not my type of discussion.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


Its not really a discussion... just an attempt to point out some similarities...

What was important was the link in the thread to a gnostic text...

I guess I should have said that before hand

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I have my fair share of answers but if I idol worship them I would be no better than Christian idol worshipers. Or you.

Would you mind explaining that little comment?

Just that we should all retain some flexibility and be prepared to admit we were wrong on something.

Most of us are fundamental to the way we think and it is like pulling teeth to get any of us to change our minds. We idol worship what we think we know IOW.

Proof.
When was the last time someone you changed your mind about any of your fundamental beliefs?
The same with me. It has been a long time.

Regards
DL

I wouldn't say we worship our beliefs... Well at least I don't, but I don't know about others...

Why should we not hold fast to our beliefs... at least until a greater truth is presented?

The only thing not changing my mind on my beliefs proves is my conviction...

No Argument. As Stated I do the same but have noted that the more I am convinced of one thing, the more I might miss the subtleties of looking at it from the others POV.

This link speaks of not being for or against and I did not like that implication --- and fight it still ---- but recognize that it is a good starting point. I just have a hard time doing it.

blog.ted.com...

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Its not really a discussion... just an attempt to point out some similarities...

What was important was the link in the thread to a gnostic text...

I guess I should have said that before hand

I think that we will find many similar things from the old text as we learn more of their languages and how they intermixed then and gave them meanings. There was a lot more, what is the word, typology perhaps, going on in the past. This O P shows one between the O T and Egyptian history and I made a reference and a link above to the N T and the book the Wars of the Jews. I think we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg. Most religions are the same basic blueprint.

This Gnostic clip speaks to that. Long but I found it worth it.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL