Humans kill animals then they eat them(true story)

reply to post by OldestLurker


Scroll up on the previous page.

You apparently missed an entire post of mine to you.

reply to post by OldestLurker
I don't think I could have produced a better example of my point then you did. In order for you to go on like you did you must really consider yourself quit the schollor..............but I think "you" are the only one who does. For you to call people "tards" of any sort makes me belive nothing you say no matter how true it might be.

People like you fail every time you open your mouth, have a nice self-absorbed day.

I like the ATS tagline - deny ignorance


Here is another study

Quoting the conclusions - some hard science and fact.

Half of the vegans were categorized as vitamin B12 deficient and would be expected to have a higher risk of developing clinical symptoms related to vitamin B12 deficiency.

Now they *could* achieve what the other 50% do - but they don't and as a result their health is seriously compromised.

Serum concentrations of vitamin B12 and folate in British male omnivores, vegetarians and vegans: results from a cross-sectional analysis of the EPIC-Oxford cohort study.


Here is another just in case anyone is unaware of the effect of B12 deffeciency

Human Dietary Deficiency of Vitamin Bi2


Here is another great article responding to the vegitard naysayers on B12
Response to: Vegan Vitamin B12 Deficiency is a Myth

Unfortunately, this could not be further from the truth. The most common, serious damage that results from vitamin B12 deficiency is when a pregnant vegan who does not supplement has a baby who also does not get any B12 supplementation. Typically, around 6 months of age, the infant’s growth and neurological development ceases and then begins to regress. In many cases, such infants have sustained permanent brain damage.

Why it is not just vegantards but vegitards to

Vegetarian Diet and B12 Deficiency

Researchers have long known that a strict vegetarian diet -- one that excludes all animal products -- can lead to vitamin B-12 deficiency, and possibly heart disease. Now, new research suggests that even those who follow a more lenient vegetarian diet are also at risk.

You see this is why I am reminded of nibrutards. Facts are right there in your face but you choose to ignore them.


Here is some vegan child abuse for the ethically smug vegitard meme to ponder apon
VEGAN PARENTS ON TRIAL - DEAD & INJURED CHILDREN


Now I have though about your side of the arguement. How about you step up and at least see a rabbit killed, skinned and eat some. You may actually get some insight into the wonder that is nature that you are really...really missing out on.

reply to post by Battleline


I wonder do you have the guts to read the list of infants starved to death by vegan parents before you drift back into disneyland.

reply to post by OldestLurker

Now I have though about your side of the arguement.

I was hoping for more than you 'thinking about it'. I was hoping for an actual response to points and questions.

I am done with whatever it is you're doing. Certainly not a discussion or a debate.

How about you step up and at least see a rabbit killed, skinned and eat some. You may actually get some insight into the wonder that is nature that you are really...really missing out on.

Right because when I said I have been a vegetarian for 9 years (multiple times) implicit to that isn't the understanding I ate meat prior.....

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Although a person can eat specific plant life such as Soy Beans, Tree Nuts and various Legumes that will provide a person with the needed Amino-acids necessary for survival...it has been proven by various studies such as the one done by the American Medical Association as well as a very well regarded one done by NASA as it was done to determine how Humans would biologically respond to long term Plant Exclusive Protein digestion and consumption for understanding possible issues that Astronauts might have if they were to travel to Mars and stay there for a long time.

These studies used not only Adults but Children as well.

The results showed that such a diet was insufficient for the proper growth and development for children as for various specific reasons such as a Young Childs ability to be able to absorb specific Amino-acids from Protein rich plant life during digestion.

Those who ate a strict Vegan Diet with NO animal based Proteins or FATS especially...had over 5 times the likelyhood of developing Menal Illness as well as being underweight and having much less muscle mass and density...thus being...I believe if I can remember...20% less strength...although it could have been 30%.

These studies determined that Animal Fat played a HUGE part in Child Development both physically and Mentally. Thus a recommendation stating that it such a Vegan Diet was a detriment to a Child Health, Mental Health and ability for a Child to properly grow both the body and ESPECIALLY a childs Brain and Skelletal structure.

A secondary study went on to document how two 5 year old children where one ate a specific number of Calories and Nutrients consuming Plant Life that were calorically and nutrient wise the same as an Omniverous diet. No suppliments were used and liquid consumption was carefully monitered as well as ratios of Carbs, Fats and Proteins to make sure these two children who were IDENTICAL TWINS...thus had the same metabolic rates and genetics...consumed equal amounts of all catagories.

The VEGAN DIET caused one twin to be 18 lbs lighter than the other twin. The Omniverous Dieted Twin grew 3 inches more than the Vegan Dieted Twin who grew little at all. The greatest difference was in Health and Strength as they both went to the same Private School and had the same classes thus to equal out exposure to bacteria and Virus.

As this study lasted One Year the Vegan Dieted Child came down with the Rhino Virus 4 times to 1 time for his Omniverous Twin. The Omniverous Dieted Twin was over 26% stronger in Strength that was determined by many forms of Weight Lifting and thus determination by ratio. The Vegan Dieted Twin became tired far easier than his brother due to lack of endurance and his twin could run close to one and one half longer a distance than he could. The Omniverous Dieted Twin also had a greater level of concentration as flash cards were shown to both and they were told to shout out the answer as soon as they had it. The Vegan Twins responces were slower as well as incorrect more often than his brother.

The only area where the Vegan Twin had better results was in digestion as his greater level of fiber intake allowed better regularity but his diet did not allow him the same level of happiness as he tended to be lathargic as well as uninterested in things his twin would be acting much more the 5 year old to in a form of curiosity of youth.

The AMA went on to say that it would neither recommend or condone future experiments of this nature to take place even when the parents were more than willing to allow it and be paid to do so...as these parents had already been raising BOTH Sons in a true VEGAN lifestyle and agreed to this experiment of allowing one twin to eat Animal Flesh in their hopes it could prove that a Vegan Diet was superior from a Health Standpoint.

The study and experiment proved the opposite as well as this study and the Doctors involved becomming Expert Witnesses in a The State of California vs. "The Parents"....as their names were not released because at the time this information was released the case was being ReTrialed due to "A GROUP DEDICATED TO THE ETHICAL TREATMENT OF ANIMALS" supposedly being accused of influencing the Jury by both alledged intimidation as well as outright PAYOFFS.

Needless to say...it is obvious a developing Human Child cannot properly or Healthily grow eating a strict Vegan Diet...as well as other studies using ADULT TWINS both Male and Female that have shown that these same issues that plagued the Vegan Dieted Twin were also present in the Vegan Dieted Adults.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

Although a person can eat specific plant life such as Soy Beans, Tree Nuts and various Legumes that will provide a person with the needed Amino-acids necessary for survival...

Add dairy and eggs. Vegetarian means no meat. It doesn't mean only plant based.

Vegetarians can eat those. Vegans don't.

Milk contains all essential amino acids. Eggs also contain all the essential amino acids.

Your study talked about protein absorption.

Whey protein offers highest absorption rate of any protein
Milk contains both fast and slow absorbing protein. Whey and caseins.
About 90% of milk protein is absorbed after digestion

Now add plant based protein on top the milk and eggs.

White rice and beans is another great protein source. That combo is also a complete amino acid chain. I eat that a lot. Greek yogurt gets a vote from me as well. Much higher in protein than normal yogurt.

I feel like your study used specific vegetarians aka vegans. I am not, nor have I ever been a vegan, so I am not going to address that in the fear I would misrepresent them. I will say this. I happen to be friends with a vegan family and their children seem really healthy to me and are full of energy.

Either way I understand reading a study like that and casting doubt. But what about the 15 million vegetarians in the US alone? Can't the proof in the pudding demonstrate viability? My fitness level is testament to me. I am really strong. That coupled with getting told I am healthy from the doctors.

I say 15 million but according to Vegetarian Times it is actually:

The just-released “Vegetarianism in America” study, shows that 3.2 percent of U.S. adults, or 7.3 million people, follow a vegetarian-based diet. Approximately 0.5 percent, or 1 million, of those are vegans, who consume no animal products at all. In addition, 10 percent of U.S., adults, or 22.8 million people, say they largely follow a vegetarian-inclined diet.

Worth noting 1 million vegans should say something as well. Does to me any ways.

These people don't seem to struggle with protein absorption either

We are ominvores folks we can surivive either way,but everything in moderation,on one extreme we have the fruiterians who wait by trees for fruits to fall -off so as not to hurt the poor wittle trees in anyway..a recipe for extintion if there ever was one,then we have the guys who feed cows other cow parts mixed in with their grain to gain greater yield ,this in-turn makes cows very mad,they then makes us mad because we tried to turn them into cannibalistic ominvores,and that's just plain CRAAZY!!!!

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


I have no issue with a persons choice to either be a True Vegan or just eat only Plant Life as well as Milk, Cheese and Eggs...as this second diet is much healthier.

As far a Young Children are concerned...the second diet would be healthy as Eggs and Milk Products provide what is needed for their growth.

As far as Harvesting Animals...since I am a Hunter...I KNOW that the Money that Hunters pay for Lisensing goes to protecting our Enviroment and Wildlife. In my state of Mass...since there are very few predators...Hunters provide a very necessary way to bring the Massive deer population which is out of control and there are so many deer that they are starving as well as killing young saplings which cause soil erosion and such numbers also cause disease to be rampant in the deer population.

We can Harvest up to two or three just with a shotgun alone. Venison is quite possibly the Leanest and Healthiest Meat one could eat. I do have issues with Factory Raised and Killed Farm Animals.

Still...Humans are Omniverous and we are BORN Predators with our Canine Teeth developed for puncturing and cutting flesh as well as our forward facing Binocular Vision and our Best amongst all Animals...Energy Storage and Access system as a Human can out distance and track down or run down any other animal on Earth.

Our Bodies are designed to Kill and Eat Animal Flesh and our bodies are Healthier when we do so.

The current issues of Heart Disease, High Blood Pressure and High Cholesterol are due to our consumption of SUGAR and Machine Milled Flour which turns into cholestrol and artery clogging plaque in our blood stream as our body cannot process such finely milled wheat and rye.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

Our Bodies are designed to Kill and Eat Animal Flesh and our bodies are Healthier when we do so.

Respectfully agree to disagree on that idea

As for the hunting bit. As I had said before the biggest ethical issue is how the animals in the food industry are treated while they are alive. I exclude hunting from my 'activist' talks on the matter.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


I want you to know that I once went Totally Vegan...No Meat...No Dairy...No Eggs...Just Vegetables and Fruits and Beans for 3 Months.

I am 6 foot 1 inch and muscular as well as I am in Extreme Physical Condition as I tour in a Signed Band and have done so for Decades as well as I am a..."CIVILIAN" that has a sometimes...JOB that allows me to work with various U.S. Members of the Military.

Because of these two jobs and even though I am now older...I am capable of extreme endurance...strength...agility as I practice various Martial Arts and combinations of and I also try to swin a Mile three times a week either in an Olympic Length Pool in the Winter or in a Lake or Ocean...as I am also a Master Scuba Diver...in spring, summer and fall.

My Girl and myself will do 2 dives a day in Gloucester waters either from a Boat or from shore. We even use RIP TIDES to propel ourselves quickly away from shore as we are wearing 80 lbs of equipment in the form of steel air tanks, weight belts and dive computers.

RIP TIDES are something that drown most people as they are formed when the tide will cut a channel from the shore out away from the shore and as waves bring water to shore the returning water is funneled back out through this channel and a swimmer caught in a Rip Tide can find themselves far away from shore very quickly as the water current is too strong to fight against.

We look for this channel from a high point and once found we get into the water in front of it and allow it to pull us out sometimes a quarter to half a mile. We then swim out a bit further to a rock formation underwater where we get lobsters and dive and remain under in about 40 to 55 feet of water for about 30 to 40 minutes...then swim back to shore away from the rip tide channel. Then after some food...we do it again at a different location or if on a boat do dives if at a wreck as far down as 130 feet.

When I went Vegan....IT WAS A DISASTER! I did it as a bet and I am sorry I did as my strength left me as well as my endurance. I found that I could not dive so easily or run distance and I was EXAUSTED as every movement seemed like extreme effort. I also was constantly nodding off during the day and I NEVER DO THIS as I NEVER take NAPS during the day.

The worse thing for me was lack of ability to concentrate or think quickly as I noticed after some time a BIG difference in my abilities mentally....and in particular...MATH. I am a WIZ in Math and when eating this diet I became confused doing Dive Calculations that we do to protect ourselves from getting to much Nitrogen in our Blood Streams. I could do these in my head and even have a computer on my suit double check the calculations as they are life or death. I just could not do the calculations.

When I went back to eating my normal diet I noticed the difference almost overnight as my energy level soared and my thinking cleared.

I went into this with an open mind and I learned a lesson quickly.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


I don't know how to respond to that.

My experience has not been the same.

I am currently at 34 proper form consecutive chin-ups. 25 wall-assisted handstand push-ups. That's enough to show I am quite above average strength. I compete in full contact weapons-based martial arts. I am strong, have endurance, and feel healthy.

Your story doesn't negate mine. And mine doesn't negate yours. There are too many variable at work here outside of diet as well that could contribute. Sleep patterns, alcohol consumption, lack of water, etc etc. Or even more obvious. There are good and bad vegetarian diets. Just because you tried vegetarian doesn't mean it was ideal. For instance I know for a fact when I was eating omnivore it could have been done much healthier.

The worse thing for me was lack of ability to concentrate or think quickly as I noticed after some time a BIG difference in my abilities mentally

My mind is sharp I don't notice a decline. If anything I continue to feel smarter, but I don't attribute it to diet.

reply to post by SplitInfinity


And, a guy called Carl Lewis went totally vegan for his '91 World Championship's training, after which, Track And Field magazine stated, "It had become hard to argue that he is not the greatest athlete ever to set foot on track or field."

Why do you think his vegan experimentation didn't end as disastrously as yours? If not eating meat is so inherently wrong for humans, how do you account for the successful non meat-eating athletes in the world?

Originally posted by ottobot

Originally posted by gosseyn
The question is : do we have to continue doing something we did in the past, just because we did it in the past ? Is that reason enough ? What is the reasoning behind that ? Should we follow nature in everything that nature did ? And haven't we freed ourselves from some of nature's rules until now ? Are we destined for the stars for example ? Or are we destined to stay on that blue marble just because we have been here for thousands of years now ?

We cannot escape our nature.

One interesting thing about the current western culture: it emphasizes/celebrates the carnal side of our nature, but degrades the spiritual side as "outdated". The balance that we achieved as a species has been lost by this culture because all behaviors are driven by materialism.

We have always wanted to go to the stars. Some of us do. Yet, the rest of us are limited by one specific part of our own nature as a species: greed. Only the "best" get to go to space, because they are the only ones who "deserve" to go to space. They are no different than the rest of us, except they were born in a position to be considered "best". (One movie that explores this phenomena and almost in the same context is GATTACA.)

Even so, we cannot escape our nature, even in space. If I existed in space, I would still want to grow plants. I would do whatever it took to successfully grow plants in space, even though that is not the nature of earth plants in space. This is in my nature. If I landed on a planet, I would learn the vegetation and animals and begin to cultivate these things to produce a sustainable food source for myself and my comrades. This is my nature. I can choose to deny this nature, but I then begin to suffer because I've always (seriously, since about age 2) been driven to plant seeds and help them grow.

We are animals, but we have a specificity, like ants have their own specificity or dolphins or lizards etc., we are not better but different. Our specificity lies in our capacity to anticipate, to reflect, to chose, to be conscious of consequences to a certain extent. Should we harvest those possibilities or should we just ignore them and keep doing business as usual ?

Ahh, but that's the thing: Humans as a group do not care about consequences.

A Human sees the consequences of his/her actions because his/her life is affected by action or inaction. The Humans (as a group) are oblivious to the consequences of their actions. This is because, collectively, we believe that it's "someone else's problem" and we try to blame our errors on groups of humans we don't like. This is in our nature. This is not limited to one culture or set of humans. This is human nature.

Ultimately, I think it is a debate about culture/nature.

Indeed, but the key is to have a balance between one's culture and one's own nature. This is what we have lost.

You ask, "Who do we want to be?"

The answer, for many humans, is, "Who do they want us to be?"

edit on 2/5/13 by ottobot because: (no reason given)

I think we have different ideas about what "human nature" means. I don't think "greed" is in our nature, but is only a behaviour that can appear under specific conditions. We are not greedy for stuff that is present in abundance, regardless if we need that stuff for our survival or not. Here are 2 example : the air we breathe and sea water. We need breathable air for our survival and yet we don't stock breathable air, and even if I am in a crowded place, I know there is enough breathable air for everyone. We don't need sea water for our survival, and it is present in abundance, thus no one is greedy about sea water. In those 2 examples, the conditions for greed to appear are not met, and subsequently there is no greed for breathable air or sea water, until the environment/conditions is/are changed. The real question is : what do we think we need ? And this is a question about cultural environment. In a society where scarcity is artificially maintained, and where greed is almost celebrated, there will be greed.

Originally posted by gosseyn
I think we have different ideas about what "human nature" means.

I think so, too. By "human nature", I mean any set of innate behavioral responses that appear in humans and are not limited by culture.

Greed is not limited by culture - it is in our nature to horde the things we believe are valuable and to protect these things by active exclusion of other humans.

All cultures have some monetary or barter system where objects are assigned a value. It doesn't matter if the currency is goats or abalone or gold - this is a human behavior.

Interestingly, it is not an exclusively human response to currency. Scientists at Yale trained a group of Capuchin monkeys to use currency, and they began to use it in the same manner as humans do: they traded currency for food and then sex, were angered by stingy monkeys, gambled, and stole money from their friends when the opportunity arose. Monkey Business

I don't think "greed" is in our nature, but is only a behaviour that can appear under specific conditions. We are not greedy for stuff that is present in abundance, regardless if we need that stuff for our survival or not. Here are 2 example : the air we breathe and sea water. We need breathable air for our survival and yet we don't stock breathable air, and even if I am in a crowded place, I know there is enough breathable air for everyone. We don't need sea water for our survival, and it is present in abundance, thus no one is greedy about sea water. In those 2 examples, the conditions for greed to appear are not met, and subsequently there is no greed for breathable air or sea water, until the environment/conditions is/are changed.

The only reason ocean H20 and normal 02 are not commodities is because there is no way for humans to control these. There is no "source", so there is no way to bottleneck access to it.

It's not by accident that there are so many "from the source" bottled waters. It's not by accident that people who live in a city must pay for their natural gas, water, and even some pay taxes to operate fireplaces. These natural resources have become commodities because someone looked at them and said, "I can put a fence around this and make people pay me to have access to it."

The real question is : what do we think we need ? And this is a question about cultural environment. In a society where scarcity is artificially maintained, and where greed is almost celebrated, there will be greed.

What 'I think I need' and what 'We think We need' are two very different questions with two very different responses. (For me, anyway.)

The culture I live in celebrates greed and cutthroat behavior. I do not subscribe to this set of behaviors or its companion philosophy. As a result, I do not enjoy the same benefits as other people in the culture. This is my choice.

Yet, I do not accept the norms of my purported culture because my personal nature does not match that of the culture - I am innately uncomfortable with the norms of the culture I was born into. The nature of "we" is not the nature of "I". There is a difference. However, many people are conditioned not to recognize this distinction.

"We" need whatever we believe is valuable: money, sex, gourmet meals, iPhones, fast cars, big houses, pretentious degrees, diamonds, to feel superior than other humans, etc.

"I" need enough food not to starve, water, air, the ability to think, a garden, and love.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
My reference to hunting, weather it be rabbits, squrriels, raccoon, you appreciate the sacrifice and give thanks to the animals spirt for supplying you with food.

Gardening? Have you ever gathered dandelion greens and flowers? there are hundreds fo recipies for preparing them. Fried dandalion greens are quite tasty. How about cattails? Pull the tubers up and use them in various ways. They can be used as potatoes if you desire.

And don't forget snails. In most countries they are considered a luxery. Frog Legs are looked on with the same respect. And I know from personel experience that they make a fantastic meal.

My point here is that as a country, as individuals, we have forgotten how to survive on our own, Ny father and my grandfather taught me how to hunt, how to fish, and how to live off the land.

I am simply suggesting that people need to give it some thought, and possibly give it a try.

Originally posted by gosseyn


Did you know that human beings actually KILL other animals to EAT them ? Don't you find that disgusting ? They even have built factories to INDUSTRIALISE the process of killing the other sentient animals and chop them in small portions that they pack in plastic. WOW. At first I didn't want to believe it but I have seen the proofs. It's 100% true. They eat dead corpses of animals that are made of exactly the same stuff as them, and almost every human being find that this is totally normal. They even encourage their own LITTLE CHILDREN to eat dead corpses of other sentient beings, imagine that... I mean, what do they have in mind ?? Can't they just think for one second ? I am truly out of words..

I have a more important question!!

How did a sarcastic trolling rant make 21 pages of content? That’s unbelievable. I mean, the world economies are collapsing faster than Obama can play a round of golf, war is still happening almost everywhere, people are dying of hunger and disease globally, tyranny abounds, etc and here we are discussing humans eating meat???

I have to give it up to you, OP! You’ve made it happen…you even got my attention!

S&F

Gotta run! Hamburgers on the grill!!

reply to post by IvanAstikov


Carl Lewis is notorious in the circles of Track and Field...as to be known by many to have used HGH and Blood Doping. HGH is still to a certain extent and most definitley was at the time almost impossible to detect.

I am physically capable to an extent far greater than most in my ability to perform acts of speed, agility and strength even at my current age...and can do so all the while having great directed concentration to solve a problem.

I am explosive in my abilities and have been paid to be so from a physical aspect as well as mental.

There are very few that could match me even at my age and I am still more than capable of huffing it over long distances of difficult terrain as well as swimming both above and below ocean water in the most dangerous conditions brought about by tides, water temp., water depth, visability and current.

I also practice multiple forms of Martial Arts as well as combinations of and know what it is like to be able to keep up with the 20 somethings that are members of my Team in the Desert Heat and Arctic Cold.

When you are using a rebreather at 99 feet of depth...which is equal to 4 Atmospheres of Pressure in the November cold of such Ocean depths...and have to carefully take a directional reading by COMPASS if your computer is failing due to condition...and have to Orientate yourself to determine location of position as well as direction of travel all the while being swept along by current and having about 3 feet of visability as you have to be careful you don't get to close to a bunch of super sharp metal beams that used to be a ship....THEN...you notice that your usual vast amount of strength and energy seems to be quickly waning as the COLD starts to bother you and this makes you slugish and unable to concentrate...then every kick of your legs that have their feet inside an easy to remove Ocean Flipper becomes an effort...and every breath feels as thick as syrup...

...and then you realize....I can't just eat Tofu and Avacado/Cucumber Seaweed Rice Rolls with Lentil Soup and expect to be able to DO THIS!

If you were to attempt this...you would notice a difference as well.

Split Infinity

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


It depends upon your level of physical activity as some of the things I do require my body to be running on all cylinders. For that one needs Animal Fats and Proteins.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Yeah, I had a similar experience as well. Also into martial arts, and lots of physical activity, heavy manual labor for a living. It took a few days before it really started to hit me though. I went on with if for around two months, didn't work well at all. It was pretty surprising, I only eat meat generally at one meal per day, so I figured going to none would be easy peasy.