The Bible identifies the whore of Babylon as Jerusalem.

Your assertion is that "John write veiled references to Rome" is born of your own opinion as you say later in your reply.

And you say your opinion is the word of God, while I say mine is my opinion.

That's our difference, Scorpie.

You are intentionally ignoring all those parallels and asserting your opinions that it is Rome.

No, I am observing that not one of those parallels says or implies that John meant Jerusalem instead of Rome when he wrote "Babylon." The Bible does not identify "Babylon" anywhere. We must look elsewhere to resolve the problem, in particular at all the information John had.

Difference being, Jerusalem is mentioned by NAME in the Bibe...

So is Babylon. So what?

People who say "Rome" are using their imagination to fill in the blanks either because they refuse to see the parallels in scripture between the whore and Jerusalem... or because they don't want it to be Jerusalem.

People? What people? It's no skin off my nose whether it's Jerusalem or Rome. I see the parallels just fine, the problem is that I see the parallels to Rome, too. I also see parallels between Jerusalem and Rome in the First Century Christian experience. I look at the writer's context to help understand the writer's intention, you don't. That's pretty much the nub of it.

I guess I can dismiss take it as one of the many unsubstantiated opinions I've heard so far. Like Jesuit garlics opinion that the sea beast was Mussolini.

You do with it whatever you want, Scorpie. But Mussolini belongs to the wrong Rome and the wrong millennium. No wonder you're so set on Babylon being Jerusalem and not Rome if you can't tell the difference between Jesuit Garlic's interpretation and mine.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
It's a fun topic to discuss ... but it's really not important to salvation.

It is more important to salvation than you think.

If you follow the true antichrist because you expect him to be from Rome and not Jerusalem, it is very important.

Originally posted by truejew
If you follow the true antichrist because you expect him to be from Rome and not Jerusalem, it is very important.

Dude .. I"m not going to follow ANY living human being .. no matter where he comes from.

When Jesus comes again, He is supposed to come in the clouds and EVERYONE will see Him in His glory. There will be no question.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Dude .. I"m not going to follow ANY living human being .. no matter where he comes from.

I hope you are right about that, but from what I've seen, I doubt it.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

When Jesus comes again, He is supposed to come in the clouds and EVERYONE will see Him in His glory. There will be no question.

I never said He would not. The question is... What side will you be on when He does?

reply to post by eight bits

And you say your opinion is the word of God, while I say mine is my opinion.

That's our difference, Scorpie.

Except I'm not saying my opinion the word of God.
All I am saying is that the Bible makes a stronger case for my opinion... about the whore being Jerusalem. (Refer to the verses listed in the OP).

If you hold the opinion that the whore is Rome, fine. But it is nothing more than an extra-biblical speculation. Much like other extra-biblical speculations about the whore being the UN, EU etc. Point remains that all those entities are not described as being prophet killers. Jerusalem is... by name.

I don't like debating opinions, but if you have something from the bible that makes a case for Rome being the whore, then bring it.

Map of "greater Israel"


Map of the Babylonian empire.

Is Israel being referred to as Babylon, because it lies within the geographical boundaries of the ancient Babylonian empire?

Possibly.

Scorpie

Much like other extra-biblical speculations about the whore being the UN, EU etc. Point remains that all those entities are not described as being prophet killers. Jerusalem is... by name.

I realize that returning to a quiet thread after a long break, as you have, may make it hard to keep track of who has argued what. I'm arguing for a "contemporary with the Biblical author" interpretation. Things that lie in the authors' future (the United Nations, the European Union, etc.) are not in any respect "like" any interpretation I have proposed.

Let me refresh your recollection of my view, then. The Biblical author's situation was that Rome had become for his generation what Jerusalem had been for an earlier generation but was no more, which is what Babylon had been before that for a still earlier generation but hadn't been for a while. That there's nothing new about God's people suffering persecution is part of John's teaching.

I don't like debating opinions, but if you have something from the bible that makes a case for Rome being the whore, then bring it.

But you and I have no dispute about the Biblical text. It does not resolve the matter, and intentionally so: the point of apocalyptic writing is to call upon the reader to supply the omitted interpretation. That will come from what the reader knows about the current situation of the author and his first readers. It is a letter, after all, with a specific sender and recipients.

There is also no dispute that the author of Revelation drew on already venerable Jewish scripture to construct his apocalyptic epistle. The original authors of the texts John used were writing about their own concerns. It was John who reused them to describe his times and to convey his message. If we want to interpret John's sources, then we find places like Babylon and Jerusalem being discussed. If we want to interpret John's composition, then we find Rome.

The relationship of "Babylon" to a past Jerusalem is literary. The object of alluding to past persecutors of Godly people is to discuss Rome, as Rome was in John's time. The point of doing so figuratively is to evade the same ongoing persecution that is the subject of the message.

There's nothing "extra-Biblical" here. That's what's in the Bible. John's letter uses plainly figurative langauge based on earlier scriptural allusions to get his message about current events across to his intended recipients.

Okay ... been doing some more reading up ...

When this thread started I was ..

75% in favor of the Whore of Babylon being Rome
25% in favor of the Whore of Babylon being Jerusalem.

Now .. I'm 50/50 ... I'm thinking it could be either one.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Dude .. I"m not going to follow ANY living human being .. no matter where he comes from.

I hope you are right about that, but from what I've seen, I doubt it.

Oh ??? And exactly what human being am I supposedly following in an unquestioning stupor? Good luck answering that ... because I"m not following anyone.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


i like your way of reasoning skorpion
- just i suggest you vieuw it a bit wider;
babylon being ' this present world system '

yes ' jerusalem ' is the symbolic representation for that,
[ not the ' mountain of zion ' : that is the néw jerusalem, during the 1000 y reign ]

but this worldsystem is a whorish Consciousness,
it teaches people to understand only Personal Gain and Hyperindividualism -
...and that is deadly to Faith
hence ' who killed their prophets ' etc ;

..if you take it 1 step further ;

we [ ats for example ] know that every country s being indoctrinated by msm
and it is, literally [ ! ] like a Spell over the people

...because it tells them how to vieuw the world [ according to Evil ]
what to buy, what to like,
to value Capital and marketsystem [ and so loose any dependancy on God ]
etc

the whore represents the Spell
because a ' whore ' is representing always a false spiritual thing

...hope i make sense

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Dude .. I"m not going to follow ANY living human being .. no matter where he comes from.

I hope you are right about that, but from what I've seen, I doubt it.

Oh ??? And exactly what human being am I supposedly following in an unquestioning stupor? Good luck answering that ... because I"m not following anyone.

One who follows doctrines of men, will follow the man known as the antichrist.

Originally posted by truejew
One who follows doctrines of men, will follow the man known as the antichrist.

Says the cultist who follows the doctrines of men!

The Ten Commandments .. doctrines of men.
9/10 of the 10 Commandments was taken from the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
The 10 Commandments are 'Doctrine of men', written by men for followers of pagan gods.
Moses was highly educated and well versed in them.
He passed this 'doctrine of men' from the pagan Egyptians to the Jews ...
and the Jews passed them to the Christians.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Says the cultist who follows the doctrines of men!

Not true. Looks like you are following Adjensen now. Without repentance you will exchange an antichrist for the antichrist.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

The Ten Commandments .. doctrines of men.

The Ten Commandments were given by God. We are also not under the Law anymore.

Originally posted by truejew
The Ten Commandments were given by God.

WRONG. It is a FACT that 9/10 of them are from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which predates the Moses time period. Moses took the pagan laws and gave them to the Jews to follow, claiming that God gave them when in fact that's just not true at all.

Do you believe in Adam and Eve and/or the Garden of Eden?
It's a creation myth stolen from the Summerians and changed. It didn't happen.
Congrats .. you believe in the doctrines of men.

Do you believe in the Noahs Ark story?
It's a MYTH stolen from the Summerians and changed. It didn't happen.
Congrats .. you believe in the doctrines of men.

Do you believe that Abraham was following God's orders when he tried to murder his son?
Hearing voices telling you to murder your child is NOT NORMAL.
Congrats .. you believe in the doctrines of men.

Do you believe that a person has to worship God on Saturday (the sabbath) or go to hell?
That's from the 10 Commandments .. 9/10 of which Moses took straight from
the pagan texts of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Obviously he made up the last one.
Congrats ... you believe in the doctrines of men.

Do you believe that God struck Onan down because he 'spilled his seed'??
Obviously Onan had a heart attack or stroke from the stress, but the peasants though
God struck him down because of some huge imagined sin.
Congrats .. you believe in the doctrines of men.

etc etc etc ....

reply to post by FlyersFan


God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses as recorded in Scripture. Any source that contradicts that is false.

Originally posted by truejew
God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses as recorded in Scripture. Any source that contradicts that is false.

No. Scripture is false. It has been PROVEN false. It's a FACT that it's false.

9/10 of the Ten Commandments came from the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
This was something Moses was well schooled in.
The Egyptian Book of the Dead PREDATES Moses and the 10 Commandments.
The Egyptian Book of the Dead was written by humans for pagan god worship.

Therefore .. if you believe you must worship God on the sabbath because the 10 commandments says so, then you are in fact following HUMAN DOCTRINE. The 10 Commandments were made up by Moses based on his Egyptian schooling on the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Again .. congratulations .. you follow the doctrines of men.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by truejew
God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses as recorded in Scripture. Any source that contradicts that is false.

No. Scripture is false. It has been PROVEN false. It's a FACT that it's false.

9/10 of the Ten Commandments came from the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
This was something Moses was well schooled in.
The Egyptian Book of the Dead PREDATES Moses and the 10 Commandments.
The Egyptian Book of the Dead was written by humans for pagan god worship.

Therefore .. if you believe you must worship God on the sabbath because the 10 commandments says so, then you are in fact following HUMAN DOCTRINE. The 10 Commandments were made up by Moses based on his Egyptian schooling on the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Again .. congratulations .. you follow the doctrines of men.

You are incorrect. God and His Word has existed a lot longer.

BTW, I do not follow the Law. I do not keep the sabbath.

Originally posted by truejew
You are incorrect. God and His Word has existed a lot longer.

Dude .. you are SO wrong!

2600 BC – Egyptian Book of the Dead is written.
2100 BC – The Code of Ur-Nammu (Summerian)
1770 BC – The Code of Hammurabi
1490 BC – 10 Commandments

reply to post by FlyersFan


God and His Word existed before time/dates existed.