Your hatred for me is mis-directed.

reply to post by michael1983l


Because it goes with the title. It goes with the thread. I can only speak of what " I " have observed throughout my career. I speak of what " I " think about the results of buying crap from China.

I bought a well used '86 Jeep Cherokee 450,000 miles right after university in 2000, paid $2500. I drove it for a year and a half and added another 80,000 without a hitch, and traded it in on a '96 Grand Cherokee, got $4200 on trade in. Drove the Grand for ten years and only spent money on maintenance.
Although they have not produced the Cherokee in 13 years, there are still a bunch on the road.
I would buy another in a heart beat.

Great post, I am a technician myself, but I have only been in the field since 2004. I started at Chrysler in 2007, and I could see a sharp difference in quality from the cars I was working on, as compared to the new stuff that was just coming in from the factory.
We had to do training on all of the new engines Chrysler had in 2008, and the instructor told us there that Chrysler, in the name of saving money and trying to maximize profit, started using cheaper materials, and cutting out things that they saw as unfit. At this time they were still merged with Daimler (Mercedes), and as a result they got some really good (but weird) engineering ideas, and the accountants just said "nah, we can do without".
I have noticed a few problems with new cars in my field which lead to this:

1. Adding too much "stuff" - What I mean by that is cars are so accessory rich, that they become needlessly complex. The bluetooth technology, GPS, TPMS (a government mandate on all passenger cars, mind you) all lead to so much crap crammed in the car it becomes a nightmare. And with all these modules communicating on the same network, stuff gets real bad, real fast. The Dodge Caliber, for instance, has two thermostats, one is used to quickly get heat into the heater core so on cold days the driver can have heat sooner, but that is just one more thing to break, and leak. Remember this: Simple = Reliable.
2. Government mandates - Chrysler's 4.0L inline six used in the Jeep Wrangler was by far one of my favorite engines they produced. It has a ton of torque, smooth, bullet-proof; very little went wrong with them. But Chrysler had to discontinue it because it couldn't keep up with emissions. The 5.9L diesel used in the pickups was awesome as well, but it had to go for the same reason, and the 6.7, from my experience and from what I hear from techs still there, is not anything to lose sleep over. I work at FedEx, and our trucks still use the 5.9L (called the ISB), and the 6BT, both are leaky as I don't know what, but these trucks have 400k miles on them and run like a champ.
3. Cost cutting - The main reason cars suck today is because manufacturers are losing their engineering edge, so they have to find a way to keep the cost down, with price now being the main factor people consider. For a while there, domestics were horrible, and people bought foreign without a second thought. Now that the big three are hitting their stride and building cars that people actually want to buy, the boys in Japan and Europe have to find a way to stay ahead of the game, and using cheaper materials is the path that many choose. Also don't forget the Koreans are building exciting, better cars now (Kia, Hyundai), and they are cheap, way cheaper than that VW.
4. The customer - They will build what you will buy, period. The manufacturers are focusing on many things that aren't important necessarily, but will sale. The flashy exterior design, all the gadgets, and the desire for a car that can run forever without maintenance compels them to build cars that can provide that, but everything comes at a price. Now that the car isn't something that people will, or even want to work on, they build them anyway they choose, and the technician is left picking up the leftovers.



S&F Loving my 1991 Toyota Corolla

reply to post by Beartracker16


Those were well built. The Jeep Liberty that i suppose was meant to replace it is not anywhere near as good. Lots of electrical issues related to the transmissions. I believe i read that Jeep is going to be built in China now.

reply to post by wjones837


Yea, i worked heavy line for Chrysler in the early 90's. I recall seeing "made in Mexico" all over the cars. Emission standards got really tough in the 80's and the new mandates were going to cost billions to research/develop. The big 3 threw lobbyists at the issue instead and got a ten year extension to comply. That left the Japanese and European manufacturers to foot the bill for new research/development. The big 3 cut deals with various Japanese manufacturers to rebadge their cars and sell them as Fords/Chevrolets/Chryslers. That allowed them to basically steal the technology. In some cases the big 3 bought enough stock to take over some Japanese companies.

The big 3 whined about not being able to compete with Japan during the Reagan years. That led to a 25% tariff on imported cars. The big 3 raised their prices so as to get higher profits. They remained higher priced than the Japanese out of greed. That did however create jobs in America. The Japanese built factories in America to avoid the tariff.

Originally posted by michael1983l
reply to post by jimmiec

 

Did anybody else notice that the OP said "I" 11 times in 3 short paragraphs?

Did you realise you used the letter "i" 6 times in one sentence..?

reply to post by zatara


Gotta love trolls.

reply to post by michael1983l

Originally posted by michael1983l
Did anybody else notice that the OP said "I" 11 times in 3 short paragraphs?

No.

But I guess that's normal being a robot and all...

One has to wonder if this is all part of the Illuminati plan to keep us in slavery.

It would also explain all the strange symbolism in the auto logos.

Perhaps the Amish with their buggy's were right after all...

"The BMW logo shown above is a perfect example of sun symbolism used by the Illuminati. BMW uses a cross in the middle of a circle to denote sun-on-cross sun symbolism. The illuminati are proud to be “Order of the Sun” and display it on virtually all product logos. Most people see it unwittingly, but it severely impacts us through the subconscious. The Illuminati love to rub our noses in it - esoterically, keeping us in servitude, slaves.

I’ve seen Alfa Romeo featured as one of the top 5 sinister corporate logos. I understand why! Not only does it have sun/cross, but it has a snake (representing the illuminati) eating a dude (representing you and me). Plus if you drop the dude and snake’s head down a bit, it extends the cross’ right arm and forms a second cross in the middle. Plus, it has the same three section horizontal box like Cadillac. It looks like a crown in this case. Anything royal alludes to them being god-like and us not."

There’s three methods of sun symbolism used by the Illuminati in the auto logos:

Sun-on-cross
Triangle (capstone of pyramid) with all-seeing eye
Winged Solar Disk

Illuminati Sun Symbolism

reply to post by Murgatroid


Given that GM is not being allowed to pay back the bailout money and get out from under federal control. You may be right.

reply to post by jimmiec


'93 Nissan Skyline R32 GTR ($16,500 - 160psi in each cylinder, 112,000kms)

and

'93 Suzuki Swift GTi. ($2,100 - Third cylinder has 80psi...but still runs, 238,000kms)

the other car I own is (and I don't like it):

2007 VE Holden Commodore Omega - It's still newish, still runs like new. Aussie built, quality ok.

I get what you're saying. I only like cars between 1960 and 2004.

reply to post by jimmiec


My buddy is a mechanic and has his own shop.. he does everything but body work. He loves the junk cars as he is always stacked with work.

Actually it is by design that products are made not to last. Ihave seen this in almost all kinds of products. printers come to mind as they make the gears in them out of plastic so they wear out forcing you to buy another. Cars are essentially the same. Everything is made disposable to keep the economy going.

why would you build a product that never needs to be replaced or repaired?? If I made a food that would keep you fed for your life time I would be out of business pretty quick. I would much rather feed you food that made you hungrier and there are additives used in food to do just that.

Recently I heard on the radio how toyota is recalling some cars. Considering the reputation toyota had of such good manufacturing and quality practices I am really surprised. Seems to me they are no long parcticing Kaizen and following JIT or was it lean manufacturing principles.

I had a Geo Tracker that I took over 150k miles (it was a 1997) -- worked great, minimal problems.

I can attest to the crap-tastic-ness of newer cars. They don't make my Toyota anymore, but I only have 74k miles and I JUST got it back from the shop because of the starter.

It actually was the second time in 2 weeks I've had to take my 03' Toyota back to the shop for the same problem. The first time they told me it was the clutch switch, and it ran fine for about 10 days. It wouldn't start again, so the mechanic looked and finally said it was my starter.

$1,000 later w/parts and labor and it was probably the starter all along. The shop I go with has always done good work, so I'm 50-50 on using them in the future.

All you right wing people are going to hate me -- but my next car is probably going to be a Subaru Forrester.

ETA: People make fun of my tiny Toyota Echo, but other than this starter issue -- It's been a great car. I average 27mpg in town and about 35 highway. I only fill up like once a month.

I'm not on the mechanic end of it but I do understand the value of an experienced tech who can really diagnose an issue because they have learned how to think the processes through. Some techs will say the car needs a new computer because the computer can't tell his equipment what's wrong with the car.

I do know the metals of the panels very well as I've been manipulating them to remove dents without paint work for years. The newer panels are becoming thinner and thinner to satisfy mileage improvements and they do not hold up the same. The Korean is about the worst. I think it's made from rejected washing machine metal. It behaves unlike any of the others. The Japanese metal is fairly tender too. Most Subaru's get beat pretty easily and their drivers tend to be in their own world for some reason. Honda metal is pretty decent of the 3 main ones. American cars haves thinned but are still a decent alloy. German metal is strong and detrimming them is like reverse engineering alien crafts. Toyota trim has gone to push in type retainers for their interiors so factory techs don't have sharp tools on them while installing the interior trim on the lines. All of the newer model cars are taking a beating when they are hailed upon. Estimates to repair are often double or more for what they where 10 years ago. That old metal would hold up consistently throughout the car. Now top panels are often replaced, roof and all.

I think if or when the Chinese begin selling cars in the US, we will see the industry going more towards disposable cars more or less.

I would have to agree about the build quality of newer cars, and since I am not the sort of person who thinks tying up thousands in a car when something that costs hundreads will serve just as well if not better. I recently bought a 2001 Rover 75 (the car that saved Land Rover/Jaguar until they were asset stripped out of business by chinese venture capitialists) in a private sale on the recommendation of the Mechanic who has been servicing my cars for a few years now. The car drives like a dream, despite its 2.0 V6 engine is economical, is comfortable, stylish, has only just done 80k, and only cost me £725 UK which means I own it and not some finance company.

reply to post by jimmiec


that is a career i kick myself repeatedly for not pursuing and I love auto repair in general...if people get upset about the price of a repair than go fix it themselves...same thing with a plumber or electrician...great jobs that can earn you well above what a college degree could and your odds of success even as a apprentice are much more in your favor than what you might major in while in college...for all the debt you are going to collect getting your master's degree your probably going to come out of the gate making if your are lucking in the low 40's...but I could be wrong but I do a lot of hiring and I work for the state and there are some pretty lofty degrees getting tossed around for entry level positions..just saying

reply to post by votan


Well, cars that require repairs require parts. Those parts have to be manufactured. They are being manufactured by the power of coal. We are polluting far more by building junk. Economy's did just fine when quality was a source of pride for the manufacturers. I am not so sure that it is intentional. The way engineering of a car is done is a problem. The body design is the first step. There are many dept's that engineer different sections of the car. All these engineering dept's come up with their ideas and then fit it into the body. This does not usually go well. They have to give and take for every inch. Their parts interfere with other dept's parts. They go to battle over an inch here or there. The styling gets effected or the drivetrain does. The location of a power steering pump can cost a week of arguing. I have worked on cars that require 13 hours to replace 1 motor mount. It was easy to see where they could have simply used a bolt instead of a nut in order to turn that job into a 30 minute job. It is said that mechanics make the best engineers. Obviously the engineers we have today have no mechanical experience.

reply to post by chrismarco


I worked with a guy for 14 years that got his Masters in college and went straight to turning wrench's. He said he enjoyed it. It can be lucritive. A good mechanic in a metro area will easily make 60-120k a year. 50k a year entry level with good skills. Plus side work and scrap sales. Personally i think kids should go straight from high school into trade school before going to college. That way they would
have a skill to fall back on and have a couple years to mature more.

I live in Australia and drive a Holden Commodore.

reply to post by MystikMushroom


Subaru is a good car. They used to be an angineering company for other manufacturers actually. Being all wheel drive the gas mileage isn't too great though. Depending on what year/model you buy. There is a fuse you can install under the hood,passenger side firewall that puts it in front wheel drive only. It can save on gas. It is a small black box with FWD imprinted on it.