I'm sick and tired of people telling me I can't be British because I'm a Muslim.

So I'm a British born Muslim of Indian descent who's proud of his British background, and I'm sick of constantly having my validity as British citizen called into question simply because of the religion I follow and the colour of my skin.

Once again and no doubt not for the last time I had an exchange this evening with someone I met in the pub which went a little bit something like this. This one was rather tame and, at least more ignorantly quizzical than outright abusive but believe me when I say I typically get it much, MUCH worse than this.

"Where are you from?"
-"Croydon, but I moved from there when I was about 12."
"No, where are you really from?"

Oh dear.

-"Well, I lived in Croydon all my life, it's where I was born."
"Oh. Where were your parents from?"
-"My Mother was born in Birmingham, my Father also Croydon."
"Okay. But what about like, originally? Where did you really come from first? Like genetically"
-"How far back do you want to go? I'm probably more British than you, if that's what you're getting at."

To which they take offense.

"There's no way you can be more British than me! My Great Grandad fought in both World Wars after all. Just because your grandad sneaked over in a crate as a "Get out of poverty free" card doesn't make you British."

The last part made me chuckle. But this is a common, yet ignorant deflection I'm faced with which is blind to the fact that India, from whence I can genetically draw my heritage to, had been in some part or wholly a territory of Britain through trust of the East India Trading Company since 1606 where the first trading posts were set up in Bengal. And from 1857 onwards when the British Raj was officially formed Indians could be considered full citizens under the right circumstances which included many members of my family. Today it remains a commonwealth member and diplomatic relations are powerfully positive.

I can trace my family tree and their lives, at least on one side, back for almost 300 years - they were quite affluent and always, always with no exceptions, loyal subjects and strong supporters of the crown. What makes up me today, served in more or less every single major military conflict the British were involved in, one or both of my Great-Great-(Etc)-Grandparents were involved in it either directly or in a direct economically supportive manner, even one of women I am related to was a nurse in the Crimean war, working alongside Florence Nightingale.

In the 1940's, after world war 2 where both of my Great-Grandfathers had fought in Burma from the first day to the last, they moved over Britain to start a new life rather than follow the separation, already holding full British citizenship their entire lives which is how I "came to be". Although they weren't the first in my family to call the Isles home at all.

I have 300 years of proud cultural identity and claim to the country I live in. And for some nobody to point fingers at me and say that because I'm not white and protestant in what was once a colonial empire which today openly embraces all religions and races somehow diminishes my claim to that heritage is insulting to me on the most basic of levels.

I'm not saying my claim to British-ness is stronger than anyone elses, just that it certainly isn't weaker. When most people draw back their family tree they find it crosses between Dutch, French, Prussian, Irish, Scottish, Swedish here and there. And that is by no means a bad thing. But it is when these same people, some only 3rd generation citizens themselves use it as a basis to attack me, and most of their fellow Daily Mail readers will nod along in complacent agreement because of the racist overtones imbued into their tiny, incapable minds through years of hate speech and indoctrination.

I also get this quite a lot, especially from Americans oddly. And yes, I realise that atrocities were committed against Indians, but that has never affected me personally. The American's treatment of the American Indians never dissuaded American Indian patriots in the 20th century. People in Germany don't hate the land they live in because of what the politicians at the time wrought upon their ancestry a century ago. It's passe, what matters to me is that I love, love, love the country I live in, and doing so is somewhat of a family tradition.

I'm proud to be British. And before people start playing 20 questions on whose side I'm "really on" and if I'm actually "one of them". I wish they'd simply take a history lesson.

I'm confused as to what your proud of, being British?



Maybe you should be more proud to be yourself, and stop worrying about what others think. Especially on some Nationalistic level. Whatever works for you, I guess...

Life is much bigger than trying to defend some notion of 'I'm from here'. It's a joke, really.

Dude your here so your british, however, the real test is........do you eat fish and chips?

mmmmmm fish an chips....mmmmmmm

reply to post by sajuek


I'm confused.

Muslims are forbidden to drink alcohol.

You're meeting idiots in a pub.

What gives.

reply to post by retirednature


I understand where you're coming from and I'd like to agree. I'd like to bury and forget about it, but I'm only human, subject to human emotions and thus human responses. And having literally people sometimes proactively go out of their way to hurl abuse at you over the same thing for the entirety of your life... It gets pretty old pretty fast.

reply to post by winofiend


Not all my friends are Muslim, and I quite enjoy virgin Mojito's so it makes me the perfect designated driver!

Originally posted by sajuek
Not all my friends are Muslim, and I quite enjoy virgin Mojito's so it makes me the perfect designated driver!

Haha Good call.

Still, sounds like you need to avoid pubs with drongos in them. Hard to do.. But not worth the interpersonal hassle I'd imagine if it riles you.

Nothing worse than being in a pub and having drunks wander up to you assuming they've got you sussed and ramble at your face as if you're something else.

reply to post by winofiend


This was only an example. Most of the times it's actually simply on public transport when I'm making my daily commute. I get assailed with questions like "Why don't you go home?!" (... Why else would I be on the tube?)

Lord forbid if I'm ever seen even remotely close to something like a Jobseekers office where people just can't wait to make the connection and some buck-toothed toddler totting state suckler inarticulately describes why I'm everything that's wrong with the world.

I'm making it sound more common than it is, the more extreme examples are maybe annual/bi-annual occurrences. The overwhelming majority are really nice. But it's people like these who make it difficult to integrate for 1st & 2nd gens, and breed the ugliness of extremism that they fear.

It's always buses more often than tubes, oddly. Maybe I should just stay subterranean.

The sad fact is i think the majority of the people who think like that will never change and the bull.... constantly drip fed to them by the sun and the mail is a lot to cut through. the fact is you know your history and your feelings sometimes you just have to accept that a certain bunch of morons will always see you as an outsider. i'm a gay brit whilst not a similiar issue the same group of people will always see me as an outsider so i have to do the same thing.

A lot of energy can be wasted on people who will never want to educate themselves. Both the rags you mentioned especially the sun (im scouse :0) are there to point the finger at everyone other than white hetero males and the people reading them are looking for blame not facts they want to know who's fault it is their society is broken and their life is not all they want it to be just so long as nobody points the finger at them and says you, you are the problem in your life and your community is at fault for the state it's in. good for you that you have kept pride in yourself and your home in the face of ignorance. thankfully its not everyone in that country i always managed to surround myself over their with a decent diverse group of intelligent people some people are just better to avoid until they grow up. be well

reply to post by sajuek



member


posted on 31/1/2013 @ 03:57 this post

reply to post by winofiend


"This was only an example. Most of the times it's actually simply on public transport when I'm making my daily commute. I get assailed with questions like "Why don't you go home?!" (... Why else would I be on the tube?)

Lord forbid if I'm ever seen even remotely close to something like a Jobseekers office where people just can't wait to make the connection and some buck-toothed toddler totting state suckler inarticulately describes why I'm everything that's wrong with the world."

With a quote like that about jobseekers you sound just like the Daily Mail readership that you allude to in your first post.
Pot and kettle spring to mind.

reply to post by glassspider


Did you not read his Daily Mail 'description' of job centre customers?
"buck tooted toddler tottin state suckler"
Hypocrisy at it finest.

reply to post by glen200376


The quote about Jobseekers was simply alluding to the fact that if someone sees an Indian person anywhere near a Jobseekers office the first thing that jumps to their mind is "Immigrants! Living in council houses with families of 15 kids on state benefits!"

I am (unironically) an IT consultant, the instance I was referring to was an actual occurrence where I was fresh out of University and was setting up a wireless network for JSA. As I was leaving I then got an earful from someone fitting that exact description. I was describing an event,based on actual, tangible experiences rather than short-sighted racially motivated assumptions.

The ones who bang on at me the loudest about living off state benefits with children in-tow even though I never have, are the ones who themselves are doing just that. But they are "entitled to" it based on their perception of entitlement which is simply based on their cultural background, which funnily enough we almost entirely share.

May I add, she literally had buck-teeth, a triple width pram and was upset that "My people" were making her wait longer for a free house? Not only that, but I have had similar abuse when seen near a jobseekers office for very similar reasons.

Sorry, maybe I should have been more specific that I wasn't generalizing.

reply to post by glen200376


No i was responding to the first message but when i read that i took it as a description of someone who attacked them rather than a daily mail description of all people on benefits.

reply to post by sajuek


A likely excuse,I believe you but thousands wouldnt.

If you hang out at a pub what do you expect. A drunk mans speech is a sober mans thoughts. If London is sometimes known as Londonistan then you are bound to get this type of racism. I was at a party were I was the only white guy there amongst blacks. This drunk old black guy took out his hatred of whitey out on me so I got the hell out of there. It is not you per say but dont have arguements in pubs.

reply to post by sajuek


I have much sympathy with you. Anyone that wants to settle here, raise their kids here, pay taxes here, etc is as British as they want to be (to me, at least).

I grew up in a small village in a whiter than white rural area. At school, there was only one lad of Indian descent (and no others of colour) who i happened to be good friends with. So, although i had some exposure to other culture, it was minimal. This meant that by the time i was ready for release into the wider world as an 18 year old i was pretty ignorant.

I moved to Bradford, where i was the only white person for street after street in all directions. Talk about culture shock and a real eye opener. The thing i found most weird at first was seeing someone in full traditional dress suddenly let rip in a broad Yorkshire accent - it kind of smashes belonging right down your throat!

It taught me a lot about tolerance, acceptance, etc. That people are no different to each other, we share the same fundamental goals, etc. However, what i did notice was there was a minority that had lived here for years and still spoke no English (or refused to)........and these were generally the ones that caused trouble in the area.

And to me, that is the key point. If you are prepared to learn the language, use it daily and pay into the system then you are just as much a citizen as any white person that is "native born". However, if you can't be bothered to learn the language, why are you here? (rhetorical, not aimed at you!).

Originally posted by winofiend
reply to post by sajuek

 

I'm confused.

Muslims are forbidden to drink alcohol.

You're meeting idiots in a pub.

What gives.

Loads of "Muslims" drink or eat bacon butties or generally get upto all sorts of things they aren't supposed to, particularly the younger generations. Nothing unusual at all about that.

I don't think you [OP] should get annoyed about people asking where you are from. They don't mean that you are not British but they want to know where you got your looks from, they want to know who they are speaking to.
I always ask that question when someone doesn't look European, because I want to know what their heritage is. Maybe I can then make small talk about it. I am someone who is really interested in other cultures, I want to know if someone is of Indian background or Pakistani or other Asians I'd like to know if they are Korean, Japanese or Chinese.
The reason I ask is that I speak Japanese and love their culture and would love to share stuff if they happen to be Japanese, even if they are 3rd gen British, they could probably still have interesting stuff to tell me. But you can't just go up to someone and say something in Japanese if they may be from somewhere else.

Furthermore people ask me where I am from because of my accent [which is almost unnoticable], they guess S-Africa or Australia but I'll tell them that I am German.
Then we talk about Germany for a while. Even though I am a British citizen and lived here for over 23 years. I am more Brit than German but hey, its something to talk about.

I think you should just tell them, like my husband does [who has olive skin and black hair from being half Mediterranean. Yet he was born in London and is a proper "Cockney" and Londoner with all the trimmings.

So when someone asks we don't get annoyed, we tell them that his Mum [who was born here] is from [a Med-country] but that he is a true Londoner. And you know what, that is all people want to know. Sometimes they start talking about this country and how they went on holiday there. So what? It helps with starting a conversation. Why is it so bad?

I think you are being on a high horse here. Calm down and accept people can show interest in cultural backgrounds without being racist or having an agenda. If I met you and you'd be so stuck up I wouldn't want to talk to you anyway.

A few nights ago i was sat in the pub with a group of mates... there were 2 black guys ... 3 british Indian...2 british pakistani... 1 chinese... 1 jew... 3 irish.. and myself a scot.... out of all of us..i was the only one born abroad in cyprus when my dad served out there in the late 60's.... funny old world isnt it ?

As to the white trash red neck village idiots mate.... fek em... and pay no heed... they very rarely have something intelligent to say...

L & R

British on paper...

Thank you very much to all for your kind words.

reply to post by Jepic


Yes, I am British on paper. On my birth certificate, on the passport I hold to the only country I do and ever will hold citizenship to it says I am. On my drivers license, university degree and every other piece of documentation I have ever received it tells me the exact same thing.

If however, your suggestion was that I am -only- British on paper, and despite anyone's background they can only be a citizen to their very genetic origins. I suppose it's only fair I go to India and you can head back to Italy, Norway or France. Or Africa if you're feeling really old school.