Love and Schizophrenia; someone come and give me a how-to

Originally posted by Tasmanaut
yes, yes, yes! You seem to understand.
This path is a paradox, it sounds so easy and at times it is, but it is also the most difficult thing to accomplish. At times I have stayed true to it and balanced on the edge of that blade, other times I have strayed and fallen off it. If I remain steady 99% of the time and stray 1% of the time, I have failed 100%. I have had a lot of growing up to do very fast but I feel this is a worthy task, and this person is worthy despite the temptation to think otherwise.

Everyone person is worthy of being cared for, no matter how dark their past and how they have behaved some times. I am hoping that a little bit of unconditional love can go a long way towards helping this person. This is what I used to believe, then I believed that no longer. Since knowing this person again, I've begun to believe it again

Soulwaxer, please give me some advice here. How can I maintain the mind-state necessary and not compromise my position when she becomes hostile towards me. To yield is one thing, but there is also to collapse and to allow yourself to be controlled and manipulated. This isn't the path at all. I feel that when I have yielded, I have done so forcefully or I have allowed myself to be compromised. I feel that I must be softer and more effortless

edit on 30-1-2013 by Tasmanaut because: (no reason given)

My advice is to use a very simple communication technique. When she becomes hostile towards you, and tries to pull you into a conflict, NEVER interpret anything she says or might feel. Only communicate what YOU experience and feel when she acts the way she does. Tell her how you feel about her and tell her what YOU need in order to get along with her. Try to stay somewhat disconnected from your emotions. Picture yourself hovering above the both of you and direct the conflict from there. You are aware of your body and your emotions, but your consciousness is not in it. Even if you don't believe in that, just pretend that you do, and you will see it work. That's how I learned it.

The whole time, make sure your intention is pure.

She most likely feels very small inside and needs to degrade you in order to feel safe. When you judge her actions and feelings, you trigger her defense mechanism which is aimed at you. Don't give her the chance to go there. You will feel the power of this right away.

soulwaxer

Tasmanaut.

You are setting yourself up for Big Trouble.

You are essentially soliciting the advice of amateurs and lay-people, for insight into how you can cure a woman of her mental illness (good luck with that), and your motivation is because you find her attractive and you want to be with her.

Does that, to anybody else, sound like equal parts foolishness, arrogance, and selfishness?

*********************************You do not have the right to work to try to change another person into somebody who will love you, even if they are mentally ill.**************************

Please understand, I say this not to be insulting or rude. I only want you to take a step back and really analyze what it is you are undertaking here.

I also want you to realize the extraordinary danger in this situation. You are playing with fire. Because if this situation doesn't turn out the way you want it to, you may be hurt, but you are a strong, smart, and --**Mentally Healthy**-- individual. On the other hand, she is not. How would this girl react, for instance, if you were to break her heart? Would she have a breakdown? Would she hurt somebody? Hurt herself??

And that is only one example of something that could go wrong.

This is not a worthwhile endeavour you are undertaking.

reply to post by heyitsok


I'm sorry if it came across that way, that is not my intention. I am not selfishly seeking a relationship with this person, though sometimes I think that is what they want from me. Honestly, I just want to be there friend and the best one they've ever had.

I am not seeking to change this person into something that I want, she is who she is and that is beautiful to me regardless. There is good in her, I've seen it. I do not expect it 100% of the time or even 50% of the time. I feel that she just needs someone to talk to and give a damn. I am just seeking a way to communicate with this person and avoid the pitfalls, because I know that I can.

No, I'm not a strong or mentally healthy individual, some of the time, but I am growing through this. I am learning to be both of those things a lot of the time. I seek nothing that is not already there, maybe I am foolish but I am not selfish. But thankyou, and I hear what you are saying

reply to post by soulwaxer


I think you are spot on. That correlates very closely to what I have experienced. I will do that, I may not be able to maintain it, but I will do my utmost.

I'm a big martial arts geek, and recently she thought it would be fun to have a sparring session with. I was worried myself that it would all go a bit wrong. I began with the intention of using a Tai Chi strategy, to be soft and yielding. She found that she could not hit me, she then proceeded to kick me several times and a few knees straight in the guts. I smiled and laughed it off, though it did hurt quite a bit. I then explained that if I wanted, I could keep her at distance and not allow those kicks to land. I showed her and she gave up and we did something else. Later she told me she had developed a limp and a big bruise on her foot from kicking me so hard.

I believe that sparring is a kind of conversation. Perhaps from this I can learn that when she is hostile, I must keep my distance and not allow the emotional blows to land, or else she will hurt herself from trying so hard to hurt me. I am not yet at level great enough to maintain a close distance and be yielding. I must keep some distance for now

reply to post by mysterioustranger


it is a meditation and study of duality, this experience. It may not be fair from the perspective of most people, but this is my calling and my chance to learn and grow. As far as my life being in turmoil, it has been or was for a very long time, before I came to understand myself better. This has taught me so far how to ride that storm through. I won't lie, it gets me down and then it lifts me up again, and I sometimes fail to achieve the balance, but this is life after all, and I feel nothing if not alive

Originally posted by Tasmanaut
reply to post by lasvegasteddy

 

I hear what the others are saying and they are speaking sense. I'm the kind of person that throws that out the window, and I feel drawn towards what you say

all this mucky mucky eastern tai chi buddist tao carpet flying crossbearing...etc craps means nothing
absolutely nothing without self acceptance of fact...you're a human being

feelings are thoughts
emotions are thoughts that move you
"e-motivating"

is love a thought...screw that b.s.
love is action born in emotion

can not be denied
acts of true love still to this day baffle most in humanity
all the rest is word based thought...commonly called b.s. where i'm from

if 2 find themselves in love's entangle that is true...true love
neither has power over it if they are human...best case is to be friends in it with hopes of surviving it's power

need i point out proven acts of true love
do i?

when my daughter was born...i was there
what labels one could claim
i'll let you in on a secret
with all humanily possible muster of motivation
if something went wrong...it would of went wrong for 3 lives that moment
my wife...my daughter...and i
3 were there and 3 were to leave together...oh i forgot...there was doctor types n nurses and stuff i think
yes i would of taken out all and any who would of tried stopping me in that room to save both my wife and daughter
no was not an option
true love

reply to post by Tasmanaut

Ive been in one of these situations before. Absolutely no blame should ever be placed on the sufferer. They...without recognition of the issue, have little hope. Sometimes, mid sentence my friend would just "switch", and in bed as well. Get right up, clothes back on....and out the door in a new personality. She's come back in awhile or a day or so, in the other personality. It was really really hard for me. Took 5 years for her to realize we werent together anymore.

Thank you for the reply. MS

reply to post by Tasmanaut


Bad news bro, stay away.

Trust me, you will stick by her and when she has a prolonged period of being happy and "sane" she will meet someone else and want you to listen to her all the time as she calls you to talk about how horrible he is.

You should explain to her she is manipulating the image she has of you in her own mind and like you said you were like putty so she could express her sorrow, or your mind could realistically translate her pain through the image you have of her in such a way she would know you were listening and contemplating her pain to better understand her. BUT.... this is only because you wanted to spend your life with her, you let her and she was able to. This is important for her because she has been abused, now she is trying to get in touch with her own mental power again, not to cast spells or anything but simply to affect change in her own mind. Which might be something as simple like she used to like the color purple most but after her abuse she was made to believe she liked the color yellow most. One needs a part of the mind to change that and she has had a negative control over that, by which I mean if she had positive control she would know she changed her own mind but in negative control mode that knowing is gone and instead is replaced by a knowing others can change her mind.

So the good news is she is on the road to recovery and I believe you can be a factor in that but something problematic might be that she knows power because she has seen others use it on her and now she is in a position where she can use it herself and probably wants to make up for the lost time so she would use her power poorly and you'd become her victim. You might also help her by learning aikido, either the philosophical side or just a few training lessons to get the vibe from it.

reply to post by Dragonfly79


Thankyou friend, I understand what you are saying. As for the learning of Aikido, I'm quite happy with Tai Chi for now, that alone should take me a good 70 years to perfect :p Essentially, if there is any truth to either, they are pointing at the same thing.

As it stands right now, I am under a 1 week 'test' not to talk to her. This is both immature and a worthy test. I refuse to see this as manipulation and instead choose to make this my own personal time for reflection. This is my personal trial, I'm using this time to let go of any ambition of gaining something from her that has wormed its way to the front. I intend to let go of her, to purge the desire from my mind and to achieve a state of inner contentment, to no longer rely on, expect or need anything from any other person for my own happiness and piece of mind.

If at the end of this week I say hello, a number of things could happen. She may have come to the conclusion that I am another source of pain for her and that she is better off without me. She may cool down and decide to let me in a bit closer. Or we may simply talk from time to time. By the end of this week, should I succeed in my personal battle, none of these outcomes will matter. Only from that state of mind can I be strong enough to deal with her, however it turns out

Originally posted by Tasmanaut
reply to post by Dragonfly79

 

Thankyou friend, I understand what you are saying. As for the learning of Aikido, I'm quite happy with Tai Chi for now, that alone should take me a good 70 years to perfect :p Essentially, if there is any truth to either, they are pointing at the same thing.

Sorry I haven't read the entire topic yet, I don't have a lot of time unfortunately. I just read you are a martial arts fan. It's not so much about reaching perfection or being loyal to one system, it's about how you put it into practice. Don't mind mixing styles, just go with her to a free practice session and maybe it'll help the two of you.

The big difference between aikido and taichi is in aikido you learn how to spar together in a very controlled manner. But taichi would work too, although you should not spar with her because it will only frustrate her and she'll take it out in a different maybe unexpected (to you) way. Lucky for you in the spar you described she associated the lack of power from missing you with her kicks and punches to her own body and subsequent bruises. But otherwise that energy would have to be vented someplace else or some other manner and she might have hit you unexpected just to test she is still in control and actually can hurt another body, as it is supposed to be.

So instead go to scenic places in nature (avoid concrete) and just rehearse different stances together, that way you can attune to eachother. But do take it slowly otherwise you'll suffer for it (but she would appear to do better but it would only be temporary).

As it stands right now, I am under a 1 week 'test' not to talk to her. This is both immature and a worthy test. I refuse to see this as manipulation and instead choose to make this my own personal time for reflection. This is my personal trial, I'm using this time to let go of any ambition of gaining something from her that has wormed its way to the front. I intend to let go of her, to purge the desire from my mind and to achieve a state of inner contentment, to no longer rely on, expect or need anything from any other person for my own happiness and piece of mind.

Actually this just reinforces her belief she has you and you'll always come back to her. It's pointless to deconstruct the image you have of her if anything you should observe her more closely and think about how she is, get to know her better. If you must practice how to let her go you should focus on how you exert more and less control and examine the many females in this world (except family members) and find comparisons. And you should practice on the content of what you say, like a simple hello but while you think of yourself and her in the most beautiful way you can. I don't give you much chance on the purging process, maybe you can try the intellectual approach where you seperate lust from the physical appearances and learn how to control yourself by not running straight to the bedroom of your gf when you think of her but instead aim for the living room, mentally speaking ofcourse.

She may have come to the conclusion that I am another source of pain for her and that she is better off without me. She may cool down and decide to let me in a bit closer.

If you need bargaining chips you could say she might have a better chance with you than others. It's a cold hard fact most men don't want to stick around once they find out the date is schizophrenic. I've been diagnosed myself, I haven't had a date for years (which I'm ok with) I can tell you as a guy I don't even ask women on a date anymore because of my diagnosis. Which leaves me with plenty of time for reflection and contemplation. But anyway good luck, I believe you two can really have a future if you both choose to.

reply to post by Dragonfly79


I do wonder at times whether this person really has schizophrenia. Sometimes it seems that too is a big fib. A psychologist friend of mine suggested to me that it is more likely borderline personality disorder, of which there is no hope of recovery and every chance of catastrophic destruction. Personally, I don't even necessarily believe in labels and definitions for 'mental illness's' and what not. They seem to exist only as a matter of convenience for those whose profession it is to treat them as such, then again I am very ignorant in these matters, I only know what I have learned from observing myself.

It is now 3 days deep into this 'test', and I've reclaimed my independence and strength. I will not be beaten by this, if that has been her intention all along, it has not succeeded. I do not place any blame on her part nor feel bitter about it. It is my own weakness that she has seen and seized upon, I did expect such a thing and yet I watched it happen and almost break me down. This is naive and also the definition of insanity. Countless times this has happened before and yet I was foolish enough to think that perhaps the same thing would not happen again. I cannot expect her to be reasonable or to consider my emotional state when she acts in these ways, I now make the effort to immune myself against such things.

Philosophically speaking, the darkness in her is attracted to the light in me, my darkness seeks the light in her, and vice versa in all the combinations. In moments of destructiveness, she has sought to suck the good right out of me and leave me with nothing but the dark, and she's almost succeeded, but yet not even close. my darkness must find the light in myself, to be free of the need for her to 'fix' me or complete me. I must achieve an equilibrium within myself. There can be no weakness on my part if there is any hope of continuing a friendship with her. That is not to say I don't feel a great deal of compassion for her, but it is to say that I must subdue the chemical head trip that was brewing in order to give the kind of love that she really needs.

As others have said, such a situation is surely hopeless from the get go, barring some kind of miracle. This has been the catalyst for my own personal transformation regardless of the outcome. If I succeed in this internal alchemy, the miraculous may occur. I'm just not counting on it

I probably should have added it to the other post but if you "ride" that crazy train I got the knowhow on how to get one like that in the sack. If that is the kind of advice you are looking for I can help out with that as well.

reply to post by Superhans


tempting... Show me what you've got and I'll decide what to do with it

Originally posted by Joneselius
I can tell you now, that's not Schizophrenia, not at all.

I live with a Schizophrenic, my mother, and that is NOT the symptoms. You're describing a Psychopath/sociopath. I URGE you to leave her alone, let her be. This will NOT end well for you. She's openly admitted that she likes to manipulate you and you're letting her.

One day she'll bring a big fella' to your house and tell him you've been beating her, then she'll watch as he rips your head off. These people thrive on power, not emotion. She's probably never 'felt' anything at all. That was beaten out of her, and now she's damaged. The best thing you can do is tell her to see a shrink, one that deals with identity disorders.

I fear for you. You sound naive and soft. That will work with some people but when it comes to someone whose out to get you (like this girl) they'll leave you on your ass with nothing but a fat lip and an empty wallet. Try making her pay for meal, or ask her how she feels EMOTIONALLY about a dead animal. If the response is cold and calculated, meretricious or venal, then leave and DO NOT look back.

There's a good chance she wont just 'disappear' and you've caused that, you may have to get a restraining order, this woman sounds incredibly dangerous and I hope you come to your senses.

Psychopaths are ALWAYS victims, they always come across that way but they don't feel, they don't love. They use and dispose.

A Schizophrenic does love and feel, they suffer and try their best to hurt no one. They are sometimes emotionally distant (but not emotionally dead) and can often stare into the distance for long periods of time. They might laugh at themselves or mutter things to themselves and lose their temper easily. You'll often see them chase something that isn't there with their eyes or act like they're smelling something that's not there too. They are EASILY helped though. They'll often tell you exactly how they're feeling because they don't like their symptoms. Psychopaths thrive on theirs.

edit on 11/10/2012 by Joneselius because: (no reason given)

Yesterday my dog died.

So here concludes this sorry saga. I decided today that I wouldn't play out this little game of not talking for a week. I figured, I've already learned so much about myself, I no longer need this nor care about the outcome either way. I have already gained all that I have needed from this in terms of strength, patience and self control. I no longer need to subject myself to little games nor prove anything. I said hello, told her this in a polite manner and asked how she was. She is well, lo and behold... her abusive ex for whom there is a restraining order against, has come crawling back to her. I'm glad I found out now, rather than later.

I decided to stop lying to myself. I cannot be a saint. I cannot love so unselfishly as to not desire anything from her. I was seeking a relationship, if I'm honest, though I was prepared to give it much time seeing as though the ex was off the horizon. I have been strung along through this, without placing blame and feeling bitter, I refuse to be told that I am delusional and she didn't give me strong suggestions that she wanted the same. I have decided to terminate the friendship, but not because I don't care. I cannot sit by and watch her go through the same cycle over and over again, then be the doormat and have the life sucked out of me. Her mental games and emotional blackmail have always been the same, I have just been foolish enough to believe this time would be different. I wish her all the best, I really do.

Perhaps I lack the strength to be a true friend to this person, but I have also come to accept this and not to beat myself up about it. Dozens have failed and fell into the same trap as I, so I don't feel especially weak. I have come to realise that there is something in me that seeks to 'fix' someone else, and this is a reflection of myself, something inside that I hope to 'fix'. It is healing, as it must before I can ever engage in a meaningful relationship with anyone. No longer will I seek to fix someone so broken in this way, it is not healthy for both parties. In this case, I have gotten away very lucky and with some rediscovered wisdom.

reply to post by Tasmanaut


It is not your responsibility to save her. You are throwing away your own health over guilt that belongs to someone else.

She needs meds, she needs to be stabilized, but she will never be "better".

Trust me, what you see is now is what you are ready to committ to for a lifetime. You really want to spend the rest of your life dealing with this?

reply to post by Tasmanaut


I think your lady friend has schizoaffective disorder, this is both a psychosis and mood problem.
If so, its no-ones fault, and even with the right meds she will find life hard to cope with.
Its a sad situation for you both.

Kind regards.

Originally posted by Tasmanaut She doesn't like to talk about these things with anyone, though occasionally will open up to me... right before I get bombarded with abuse.

That's pretty typical behavior from someone who doesn't love themselves. Doesn't accept themselves. She has told you in no uncertain terms that she doesn't respect you. She can't = she doesn't respect herself.

Walk away.

reply to post by Tasmanaut

So tell me, am I a fool for thinking I can do the seemingly impossible and stick by this person?

Yes a complete and utter fool. Because you think you can change somebody who does not want to change and probably deep down likes it like that. You may not even be the only go to guy when # hits the fan for her.

That I can somehow sit through it and in the end, she'll find some happiness?

Seems you two have known each other for a long time, if it has not happened by now it will not happen. Go your separate ways. Happiness comes on its own terms not your or hers, maybe you will both be happier if you were out of each others life. Its something to consider.

How do I deal with this?

You don't. There is nothing to deal with its a one way street to a dead end. Life is like a journey, you go down a path a street, sometimes you have companions down that path, sometimes not. Now if you were going down a long journey, would you want to go with the person that irks and messes with you constantly? Or with the one that does not?

Can a schizophrenic person ever trust?

She seems to be trusting and respecting the other boyfriends, even when she gets abused. She is just looking to do the same to some poor idiot who will put up with it, ie a punching bag most likely because of her inaction and inability to do something about it when dealing with the ones she really likes, and that is the one she keeps coming back to, the one she complains about to you. And that's were the whole love game comes in, and that's were your idiot ass comes in.

So to answer your question.... YES, off course she can trust. She is doing that right now, its just not you she trusts. She just trusts you to be there for her when she needs to get her frustrations out. And so! Just what kind of "trust" we talking about here?

Can they ever go for a day without abusing and hurting your feelings?

Yes they can go 2 days. Or maybe even a whole week. Possibly even months. But none of that means anything.

Can a person such as this have a meaningful friendship or relationship with another person?

Yes, even people like that have there binary equivalents, of which I think they should be with. However like I said she is just looking for an emotional punching bag --> you. And you! besides your whole goody to shoes attitude probably are there because you want some of that, and are willing to put up with it till you get it. After that however, I do believe its all going to fade.... You should contemplate that, meditate on it or something.

Will the mind games ever stop?

NO, because you are a target, you put yourself out as a target, you come off as a target. Your trying to put yourself in her life in a certain way, you know what I mean. And as such the mind games will always continue. I suggest you can be friends with this crazy lady, but if it gets to anything more then that terminate it, as that is were it will likely be going anyways. But you know you don't want to be friends right? In which case.... Oh ya dude! Do as you will.

I think I know the answers, I'm prepared to stick by her anyway, just because the good times are so beautiful, and the bad times seem to make me stronger as a person.

Someone please advise me.

Wear plenty of sunscreen. And take plenty of vitamin C. Oh! and eat your vegetables.

As for the rest, I usually find that giving advice on such things is kind of pointless as its just something some people just have to go through and experience. In a lot of cases it seems to be that you have to stick your hand in the fire, to learn about why you should not to stick you hand in the fire. Tell you what! Do what you want and keep us updated on how it all went, you know for data gathering and educational purposes.