Free Will - Do you choose Altruism or Objectivism; Virtue or Vice; Truth or Ignorance?

reply to post by EnochWasRight


There are some very good ideas here and extemely well argued.

Picture two people (strangers) happen to sit next to each in a Public House. Begin conversing. At some point one offers to buy the other a drink. The other obliges with the next round. After some shots of Absinthe one of them appearing to be intoxicated; says to the other "YOU are drunk". The newfound freind says "YES I have no excuses, I came here intending to become so, you on the other hand have no IDEA why you are also drunk".

Point being, the "self truth" (and it is a pure thing when in understanding of it) whether it is Determinism, Altruism, Objectivism, etc. is in knowing what your doing and why. Unfortunately understanding this will allow for all kinds of mischef-incuding horrors carried out. It is part of the nature of things; all things are allowed in order for the intellectual growth of God if you wish, or the Self Aware Universe. Trick is you must acknowelge any action of your own good or bad conciously; as a fully willing participant. This type of realization can be a true game changer; as in there is no accumulated Karma.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Altruism is not the opposite of objectivism. If altruism is self-LESS-ness, then the opposite is self-ISH-ness.

Ignorance is not the opposite of truth, because ignorance IS truth. There is ignorance. The opposite of truth (which is always shown in reality) is deception (which does
not).

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Altruism is not the opposite of objectivism. If altruism is self-LESS-ness, then the opposite is self-ISH-ness.

Ignorance is not the opposite of truth, because ignorance IS truth. There is ignorance. The opposite of truth (which is always shown in reality) is deception (which does
not).

Ignorance is ignoring truth or being unaware of it. Objectivism is seeking self first. Wikipedia could clear this up for you. Also, read any book from Ayn Rand to know Objectivism. There is also a move out (Atlas Shrugged). The book that is out for altruism is the new testament.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by akushla99

 

Okay, Akushla? Buy yourself a dictionary. You don't understand anything about omniscience and omnipotence. And it would help if your Bible wasn't so vague. But if I'm so wrong, then prove it with scripture. Because I noticed that in your entire diatribe, you didn't post a single line of scripture disproving my assumptions.

Can you do better than that? Because the Bible says that "God" can see 1000 years into the future. From his previous record, it's ridiculous to think that he can see that far and not twist things to suit his own agendas. He's always done so.

Don't just accuse me of being stupid. Prove it to me.

edit on 30-1-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

First of all, I didn't accuse you of being stupid...I opined on an opinion...I'm sorry you personalised it, but this says more about you than me...

Omniscience - all wise, all knowing
Omnipotence - all powerful

Scripture-quoting...deconstructioning the words of One 'script', out of many (but missing the gist of all of them), is not, in my opinion, inclusionist, nor a sign of a good god. Exclusionism is not an attribute of an omniscient and omnipotent god...that would be a mistaken notion...(which cioncidentally, can be supported by scripture - All scripture)...fit the evidence to an imagined crime...

"Because the Bible says that "God" can see 1000 years into the future."...

"From his previous record, it's ridiculous to think that he can see that far and not twist things to suit his own agendas. He's always done so."

These two statements are separated by quite a few assumptions...this is obvious, sorry...

A99

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Ignorance is ignoring or not being aware of truth - yes, but ignorance itself is truth because it exist. Existence is truth. Lies are only in the mind , not existing in reality or it would be called "truth".

Objectivism is the viewpoint that says that reality exist as it is regardless of your opinion. Objectivism is the opposite of Subjectivism which says reality is whatever you believe it to be in the mind.

Altruism is for people to be taken advantage of. To set out with an intention to only do for others without thinking of self - to put all others before you - will lead you on a path of being taken advantage of / used for all you have by some who care nothing about you whether you realize or not. That is the reality.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Ignorance is ignoring or not being aware of truth - yes, but ignorance itself is truth because it exist. Existence is truth. Lies are only in the mind , not existing in reality or it would be called "truth".

Objectivism is the viewpoint that says that reality exist as it is regardless of your opinion. Objectivism is the opposite of Subjectivism which says reality is whatever you believe it to be in the mind.

Altruism is for people to be taken advantage of. To set out with an intention to only do for others without thinking of self - to put all others before you - will lead you on a path of being taken advantage of / used for all you have by some who care nothing about you whether you realize or not. That is the reality.

An economy of Altruism would disallow debt. A simple example is this: If I throw trash in your yard, this is a -1 as an analogy. If you beat me up, there are now -2. You cannot fix a negative with anything but a positive. Now, you can multiply two negatives and get a positive. Why is this? Because if I pay your debt, I walk you back from a negative, but it cost me a negative as well. This is giving. Let's use the same example. I thrown trash in your yard. You then pick it up and throw it away. One positive against my negative cancels the negative. This cost you the effort. Gifts must be earned.

This gets us to the will of God. God is not a thief. He cannot take. God's will is to give and receive. The thief takes. Selfishness is taking and is the very reason we are 16 trillion in debt. We did not earn what we took. This is why debt is created.

Another version of this. If you smoke, you get cancer. This is because you took a reward and suffered the debt. On the other hand, if you work out in the gym instead, you gain health. This is because suffering first ends in reward. The same principle applies. Gifts must first be earned. They can then be given away. Nothing worth having is worth anything unless it is given away. The true value is what we offer to the larger community we occupy.

In our world today, self-gratifying behavior is destroying lives. Opposite this, there are many in this world that suffer good choices, work hard at jobs and love their families enough to spend drug, alcohol and cigarette money on their kids instead. Who suffers when rewards are taken in place of gifts given? With smoking, the entire family suffers. With suffering a job and giving all the money to the family, the entire family benefits. By denying gratifying behavior, what is saved is used for what is needed rather than what is wanted and desired.

This law of returns cannot be escaped. We are seeing our world die due to our own selfishness.

In the Bible, selfishness is the mark of the beast for many reasons. Namely, it can be seen in this verse.

2 Timothy 3

3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

-----Notice how many markers there are of selfishness. 18. That's 6+6+6. He says, "MARK THIS!"

6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

Notice the descriptions of this type of person. Compare to what I said about smoking or working out. One is Altruism and the other is Objectivism.

In an economy of Altruism, people would work hard for what they give to others. Today, we work hard to give to ourselves, thereby causing a debt twice. One by the reward we take and one by the debt to our loved ones.

reply to post by arpgme

Ignorance is not the opposite of truth, because ignorance IS truth. There is ignorance. The opposite of truth (which is always shown in reality) is deception (which does
not).

The only truth in ignorance is admitting you are ignorant of truth.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by arpgme

 

Ignorance is not the opposite of truth, because ignorance IS truth. There is ignorance. The opposite of truth (which is always shown in reality) is deception (which does
not).

The only truth in ignorance is admitting you are ignorant of truth.

11:11 you observed this as well. What was going on here. Ignorance is NOT knowing everything maybe an anything only of some things. That you do not SEE some of them (the obvious) . The opposite of truth is not deception, it is a only some more ignorance. Its half right got to give it; to the altruistic genious arpgme.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
...Point being, the "self truth" (and it is a pure thing when in understanding of it) whether it is Determinism, Altruism, Objectivism, etc. is in knowing what your doing and why. Unfortunately understanding this will allow for all kinds of mischef-incuding horrors carried out. It is part of the nature of things; all things are allowed in order for the intellectual growth of God if you wish, or the Self Aware Universe. Trick is you must acknowelge any action of your own good or bad conciously; as a fully willing participant. This type of realization can be a true game changer; as in there is no accumulated Karma.

Knowing what you're doing...and why... ?
Do what you will... Winning or losing are secondary to the experience.
What is meant by "...you must acknowledge...consciously; as a fully willing participant."
Is this an active exercise (like - Catholics going to confession [et al])...or simply saying "I am responsible for the doing & the results'...?

Originally posted by WanDash

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
...Point being, the "self truth" (and it is a pure thing when in understanding of it) whether it is Determinism, Altruism, Objectivism, etc. is in knowing what your doing and why. Unfortunately understanding this will allow for all kinds of mischef-incuding horrors carried out. It is part of the nature of things; all things are allowed in order for the intellectual growth of God if you wish, or the Self Aware Universe. Trick is you must acknowelge any action of your own good or bad conciously; as a fully willing participant. This type of realization can be a true game changer; as in there is no accumulated Karma.

Knowing what you're doing...and why... ?
Do what you will... Winning or losing are secondary to the experience.
What is meant by "...you must acknowledge...consciously; as a fully willing participant."
Is this an active exercise (like - Catholics going to confession [et al])...or simply saying "I am responsible for the doing & the results'...?

Yes, winning or losing are secondary to the experience you gain by being fully engaged in doing what thy wilt.
You as a spirit move in an orbit, be true to it as engaging your impulses and keeping past experience in mind as to your actions. The exercise would be this: your duty to experience the right event from one to the next from one moment of conciousness to the next. Thelemetic Law.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


The concept of "free will" is better thought of as freedom to choose a path. When you take one step on a path the next step is predetermined. The only thing that can prevent you from taking the next step if down the wrong path is repentance. True repentance always brings a man back to the right path.

It is set up this way so that you may see that every negative action leads to a negative reaction. And that every positive action leads to positive reaction. It is possible for the will of others to affect you on your path but God has promised to those on the straight path that he will never allow us an obstacle that we cannot overcome.

So anyone who takes a step towards God the next step will be in the right direction. Each time you come to a new step remember where both the bad and good steps lead, and this time and every time follow the path that cries out "Abba" Father.

Love your father and do what he asks of you, what he asks of you is to love. Turn the other cheek and serve others anyway you can. The burden is light.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

The concept of "free will" is better thought of as freedom to choose a path. When you take one step on a path the next step is predetermined. The only thing that can prevent you from taking the next step if down the wrong path is repentance. True repentance always brings a man back to the right path.

It is set up this way so that you may see that every negative action leads to a negative reaction. And that every positive action leads to positive reaction. It is possible for the will of others to affect you on your path but God has promised to those on the straight path that he will never allow us an obstacle that we cannot overcome.

So anyone who takes a step towards God the next step will be in the right direction. Each time you come to a new step remember where both the bad and good steps lead, and this time and every time follow the path that cries out "Abba" Father.

Love your father and do what he asks of you, what he asks of you is to love. Turn the other cheek and serve others anyway you can. The burden is light.

edit on 2-2-2013 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

Great thoughts. It seems to me that all free will is removed apart from taking those steps around suffering. Suffering, for me, is the point of life in the end. I explained this concept best in this thread: Suffering Thread

Basically, taking reward leads to suffering the debt that is created by what is taken. Opposite this, suffering first leads to reward and opportunity. Suffering is something that cannot be escaped. Buddha had this part wrong. So much of what we can learn from the eight-fold path is comparable to the choices you are referring to, yet Christ showed us the true path. Suffer the work to earn the gift you then give away to others. When Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life," I see this as the Eastern Way, Philosophy as the Truth of Virtue and Life as the key to Baptism and Involution into material living.

There are four baptisms to overcome. Earth (Material Entropy), Air (Breath), Water (Being born again), Fire (Trials). The final baptism and goal seems to be Spirit. I relate this to John 3 as the union of Soul with Spirit. Earth is the womb where this happens.

Genesis 1

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

There is one directive from Genesis (Actually many) that we have missed.

Genesis 2

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.