Ancient Bomb Shelters

I read something recently, about them finding a "natural" nuclear reactor that they found in Africa. It was already dormant, but the thing that I found most strange of all were reports of plutonium, a synthetic element normally found only in the laboratory. I read this, and thought back to the exchange of ideas here, and I have to wonder just how natural this reactor was. Maybe through years of neglect, they've only mistaken it for natural. Maybe the equipment got stripped out, and all that's left are the byproducts.

If the civilized world were annihilated, and the less structurally sound of our buildings went with us, the radioactive elements within power plants would still be detectable a hundred millenia afterwards. Like at Yucca Mountain. When our civilization is wiped out, I think that if the next civilization rises, such areas would be a curiosity to them, and perhaps a honey pot. All the scrap metal the new people could want, only it makes their fingernails and hair fall out, and strange burns. Like that time someone looted a container of caesium from a hospital in Brazil.

Time is a wheel, if you ask me.

Originally posted by Grifter42
I read something recently, about them finding a "natural" nuclear reactor that they found in Africa. It was already dormant, but the thing that I found most strange of all were reports of plutonium, a synthetic element normally found only in the laboratory.

Plutonium is not synthetic, it occurs naturally alongside uranium, as it is a byproduct of uranium decay.

If uranium reaches critical mass, either naturally or by design, plutonium will result from the nuclear reaction.

Harte

Here is a nice example:

reply to post by EartOccupant


Once again, I appreciate your fact checking, Harte. But is it that crazy to believe that there was another civilization here before us? Now, I'm not talking about Atlantis, but something akin to Atlantis. I know Atlantis was intended to be taken as allegorical by Plato. If something out of the sphere of human control occurs, modern authorities aren't that competent in dealing with it. These days, if they can't just shoot it dead, they don't know what to do with it. Like the oil spill, or the Fukushima crisis. A couple days ago, I had a thought. A fantasy, or vision, perhaps. The world's nuclear stockpile laid disassembled, and the masses rejoiced. And then an asteroid loomed over the sky, and the powers that be were powerless to stop it.

I suppose this thread could be a result of my thoughts and fear of on a cosmic scale how easily the human race could be wiped back to the stone age. To the age of irrationalism. Folks living their entire lives in bunkers, degenerating. Shallow gene pool in them bunkers. After a few dozen inbred generations, the upper class folks who somehow made it to these bunkers would be less than what they were when they went in. Less intelligent, less strong. Perhaps the spawn of the Bush clan in those times might never see the sun. Rockefellers and Rothschilds, trapped in an underground limbo of their own creation. Not really alive, not really dead. Just waiting for the sake of waiting, and counting time.

Perhaps that after a sufficient amount of time, the inhabitants might become less learned, and more superstitious. They might come to revere the men who constructed the bunker as gods, if the parents do not see fit to educate them. No history teachers in the post apocalyptic world. Perhaps they may come to regard the computers which run the bunker as deities, worshipping the monolithic SAGE computers as actual sages.

Time will tell.

Originally posted by Grifter42
reply to post by EartOccupant

 

Once again, I appreciate your fact checking, Harte. But is it that crazy to believe that there was another civilization here before us?

Certainly not, it's not crazy at all. It's merely absolutely speculative.

There are a bunch of people here that talk about this idea as if it were fact. Many here state outright that they "know" it is true. As long as people recognize that there is not one whit of evidence for this claim, it's perfectly legitimate to speculate on it.

My problem with it is that it is just fantasy. I mean, it could be useful if there were some "problem" or situation that such a thing could possibly resolve, but there's not.

Originally posted by Grifter42
I suppose this thread could be a result of my thoughts and fear of on a cosmic scale how easily the human race could be wiped back to the stone age. To the age of irrationalism.

Look around. We already live in an age of irrationalism. After all the most powerful person on Earth has proclaimed over and over that, should the US return to 2011 spending levels, teachers, firemen and air traffic controllers will lose their jobs. And a majority of Americans appear to buy that total B.S.

I think the idea that the Human race could be wiped out back to the stone age is unfounded. Perhaps you should look into what the stone age was.

And even if we were, so what? Beats extinction doesn't it? You and I would be dead either way, regardless of the condition of humanity after some catastrophe.


Harte

Originally posted by Harte

There are a bunch of people here that talk about this idea as if it were fact. Many here state outright that they "know" it is true. As long as people recognize that there is not one whit of evidence for this claim, it's perfectly legitimate to speculate on it.

I never claimed that this was a sure thing. Just speculation and conjecture.

Originally posted by Harte
My problem with it is that it is just fantasy. I mean, it could be useful if there were some "problem" or situation that such a thing could possibly resolve, but there's not.

Most conspiracies are little more than paranoid fantasy. Nonsense like the reptilians, and the moon landing being a hoax, and so on. But I try to specialize in the things that could have plausibly happened.

Originally posted by Harte
I think the idea that the Human race could be wiped out back to the stone age is unfounded. Perhaps you should look into what the stone age was.

And even if we were, so what? Beats extinction doesn't it? You and I would be dead either way, regardless of the condition of humanity after some catastrophe.
Harte

You ever hear of the Toba event? It's what they think nearly wiped us out 70,000 years ago. Brought us down to only 10,000 people. It's the reason that all of humanity can trace their lineage back to a couple people, the genetic adam and eve. It's happened before, and could happen again. Let's say another super volcano eruption happens. You think mankind is just gonna shrug it off? It's just gonna shrug off massive famine, an atmosphere blanketed with volcanic gases and a huge drop in temperature? We're talking the decimation of life as we know it. The death of agriculture. No more agriculture, no more seven billion people.

Originally posted by Harte
I think the idea that the Human race could be wiped out back to the stone age is unfounded.

Really? Is that based on a specific definition, as in the Stone Age was something very specific, and a cataclysm that destroyed everything and left only a few survivors with no tech and little combined knowledge would not mean those survivors were "back in the Stone Age"? Or are you saying the idea of such a massive cataclysm itself is unfounded? I thought there was plenty of actual, non-fringe evidence of such upheavals in the past, like the "muck" of the North American tundra and Siberia, or all the impact craters detailed in the Earth Impacts database.

And even if we were, so what?

Indeed.

Originally posted by Tsurugi

Originally posted by Harte
I think the idea that the Human race could be wiped out back to the stone age is unfounded.

Really? Is that based on a specific definition, as in the Stone Age was something very specific, and a cataclysm that destroyed everything and left only a few survivors with no tech and little combined knowledge would not mean those survivors were "back in the Stone Age"? Or are you saying the idea of such a massive cataclysm itself is unfounded? I thought there was plenty of actual, non-fringe evidence of such upheavals in the past, like the "muck" of the North American tundra and Siberia, or all the impact craters detailed in the Earth Impacts database.

If so many were killed that the few survivors had "no tech," then they wouldn't survive because there wouldn't be enough genetic variation. That was my point.

The Toba event didn't leave humans without their technology at that time.

You'd basically have to be an infant survivor in order to be forced into the stone age. There are enough regular people around that at least know what electricity is, for example. Iron and copper would not have to be rediscovered. Etc.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte
If so many were killed that the few survivors had "no tech," then they wouldn't survive because there wouldn't be enough genetic variation. That was my point.

The Toba event didn't leave humans without their technology at that time.

You'd basically have to be an infant survivor in order to be forced into the stone age. There are enough regular people around that at least know what electricity is, for example. Iron and copper would not have to be rediscovered. Etc.

Harte

I see what you're saying. But really, how many people who know about the existence of iron and copper, also know how to figure out where it can be mined, know how to go about mining it and what it looks like in raw form, how to smelt it from the ore, etc. etc.? The same goes for electricity. Just because I know about it does not mean I could scrounge together a working power generation system. My kids might know about it, but only based on stories they heard from their daft old man. Stories that would get less accurate and more "unlikely sounding" with each successive generation, till eventually things like iron and copper tools and electricity become magical items of power wielded by ancient giants that were godlike and could fly anywhere in the world in a single day, etc., all of which is completely preposterous while at the same time being, well, absolutely true.

You'd basically have to be an infant survivor in order to be forced into the stone age. There are enough regular people around that at least know what electricity is, for example. Iron and copper would not have to be rediscovered. Etc.

reply to post by Harte


I take issue with that statement because humanity is it's own worse enemy in that regards. Competition for remaining tech would escalate into wars for it rather quickly and that doesn't even cover those who would shun it as evil [and more than likely start another religion] As for evidence of advanced cultures I got a mainstream one for the discussion. The Antikythera mechanism, gear work like that wasn't done again till the the 14th century. Not saying that everyone had devices like that, but it is odd that a device of that complexity existed at that time.

Originally posted by hangedman13

You'd basically have to be an infant survivor in order to be forced into the stone age. There are enough regular people around that at least know what electricity is, for example. Iron and copper would not have to be rediscovered. Etc.

reply to post by Harte

 

I take issue with that statement because humanity is it's own worse enemy in that regards. Competition for remaining tech would escalate into wars for it rather quickly and that doesn't even cover those who would shun it as evil [and more than likely start another religion]

You mean like exactly what happened in the bronze age and the iron age (and even the stone age.)

People know what copper is. There is a huge amount of copper all over the world. Some of it in scrap, some of it in pure form lying on the surface (in Michigan, for example.)
A catastrophic event would not make people forget what copper is or how to use it.

Hence - no stone age.

If you need other examples, I got a million of them,.

As for evidence of advanced cultures I got a mainstream one for the discussion. The Antikythera mechanism, gear work like that wasn't done again till the the 14th century. Not saying that everyone had devices like that, but it is odd that a device of that complexity existed at that time.

It may seem odd to you, but geared mechanisms existed prior to that one. Just not as complex.

The greater question in my mind is why nobody ever thought to use the fine gears they could create to make other fine gears, and other things like screws and nuts.

No, they simply used them for either very basic purposes (one was an odometer) or spiritual purposes (the Antikythera mechanism itself.)

Hardly an advanced culture, mainly because of this.

Harte

hangedman, your infos has leaked!
Shane Martin
586 Crane St
Schenectady, NY 12303

Originally posted by Grifter42


I think that mankind has been to this level of technological advancement before, and suffered such a catastrophic event that it wiped the record clean.

Hopi legend states that when the world was destroyed they rode it out underground "

Finally, that which had been the First World cooled off. Sótuknang purified it. Then he began to create the Second World. He changed its form completely, putting land where there was water and water where there was land so that the people upon their emergence would have nothing to remind them of the previous wicked world.

When all was ready, he came to the roof of the Ant kiva, stamped on it, and gave his call. Immediately the Chief of the Ant People went up to the opening and rolled back the núta (the straw hatch that covered the opening to the kiva). "Yung-ai! Come in! You are welcome!" he called."http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/TokpatheSecondWorld-Hopi.html

Originally posted by Shadow Herder
Hopi legend states that when the world was destroyed they rode it out underground "

Finally, that which had been the First World cooled off. Sótuknang purified it. Then he began to create the Second World. He changed its form completely, putting land where there was water and water where there was land so that the people upon their emergence would have nothing to remind them of the previous wicked world.

When all was ready, he came to the roof of the Ant kiva, stamped on it, and gave his call. Immediately the Chief of the Ant People went up to the opening and rolled back the núta (the straw hatch that covered the opening to the kiva). "Yung-ai! Come in! You are welcome!" he called."http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/TokpatheSecondWorld-Hopi.html

Well, either that, or instead of stamping he left a cookie crumb outside the hole.

Harte

i dont think you even need an apocolyptic senario for this to happen. My case point being the dark ages. Just a collapse of 1 state (the romans) and a governing body ruled with an iron fist (the church) set most of the world back centuries in technology and ideaology! The written history from that time seemed to decline with the lose of those two things. I agree with the op in that a 99% kill ratio would devastate written and spoken history!