Gun collectors outbid cops in police gun buy-back scheme!

Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by 1nquisitive
Who's stupid enough to give away there guns for a few bucks? I Guess it is Seattle, but no surprises there. Washington is going into decline fast!

Guys who have Saturday Night Specials worth $15.00 apiece, for one. Also, people who inherited old guns from Grampa and have no intention of keeping them. But don't sell Washington so short. This was Seattle! Thare's a whole 'nother red part of the state East of the Mountains and also west of the Sound.

Yep people getting rid of old guns that have no worth and are just sitting around waiting for some grand kid to pic up and shoot himself with. So the purpose was served just the Cops got off cheap.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

Originally posted by Indigo5
"Gun Collectors" or "Straw Purchasers?"...I'ts hard to believe that legitimate collectors would be interested in the average forfieted gun at a gun buy-back.

Why wouldnt they be?

These stupid buy-backs are where grandma goes to dump grandpa's 70 year old Marlin.

Did you see the arms that guy with the reddit thread got? In value alone he paid out $450 and could clear twice that easily on his classics.

That Stevens 416 is worth $300-400 all by itself in good shape.

edit on 29-1-2013 by thisguyrighthere because: (no reason given)

Straw man . . . nice fear mongering. I do the same thing when I'm in town for the gun shows in AZ. I watch people coming in with their guns and offer to buy them, if they look like something I'd like. I would be just outside the doors of any buy back program in AZ, as well. As you said, buy backs are where grandpa goes to pick up some extra cash or grandma goes to get rid of g-pa's old guns . . . Most people at buy backs don't even know what they have in their hands or it's worth. If they do know, it probably doesn't work . . . but it's never anything a couple pins, springs, and a little oil can't fix!!

Originally posted by Indigo5
"Gun Collectors" or "Straw Purchasers?"...I'ts hard to believe that legitimate collectors would be interested in the average forfieted gun at a gun buy-back.

It's easier to believe that these collectors are looking to make a quick buck re-selling these guns in private sales that require no background checks or paperwork. Otherwise precisely how guns get into the hands of criminals.

It may be easier to believe, but I don't know what weight that holds. Guns tend to stay in families for generations until someone afraid of guns decides to get rid of those "old, rusty things." For example, my father-in-law brought back two dueling pistols with ivory handles from Germany after WW II when the allies disarmed the Germans completely. At one point Grandma decided she wanted to get rid of them. Fortunately, she had three sons-in-law who knew the value and stopped her.

Only gun enthusiasts go to gun shows, but these kind of buy back programs can smoke out some real gems that would otherwise not see the light of day.

I don't know if it was noticed in the video or the story, but citizens were performing their own background checks as buyers displayed their CCP and license to a seller. The CCP permit is a de facto background check because it requires one to get one, including fingerprints.

Yeah, we all know that the world is a safer place because the cops are buying the guns from these programs. And of course, all the weapons which are bought back are destroyed......not!

Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by Indigo5
"Gun Collectors" or "Straw Purchasers?"...I'ts hard to believe that legitimate collectors would be interested in the average forfieted gun at a gun buy-back.

It's easier to believe that these collectors are looking to make a quick buck re-selling these guns in private sales that require no background checks or paperwork. Otherwise precisely how guns get into the hands of criminals.

Only gun enthusiasts go to gun shows, but these kind of buy back programs can smoke out some real gems that would otherwise not see the light of day.

Fair enough. Lets hope that was the bulk, if not the entirety of what these folks bought away from the buy-back.

Originally posted by solomons path

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

Originally posted by Indigo5
"Gun Collectors" or "Straw Purchasers?"...I'ts hard to believe that legitimate collectors would be interested in the average forfieted gun at a gun buy-back.

Why wouldnt they be?

These stupid buy-backs are where grandma goes to dump grandpa's 70 year old Marlin.

Did you see the arms that guy with the reddit thread got? In value alone he paid out $450 and could clear twice that easily on his classics.

That Stevens 416 is worth $300-400 all by itself in good shape.

edit on 29-1-2013 by thisguyrighthere because: (no reason given)

Straw man . . . nice fear mongering.

Hmmm...Law abiding gun owners claim to want to keep the guns out of the hands of criminals...

All BS aside...Are you aware in study after study on guns used in crimes, where they originate?

Only about 10% are traced back to guns that were stolen from a home.

The number #1 source of guns used in crimes are straw purchases. Folks who can legally buy a gun buying guns for resale to criminals at a mark up. Since there is no requirement in 48 states that a gun owner report a missing or stolen gun or even report the sale...that gun can be resold to anyone with no accountability as long as the buyer isn't undercover. Even if the gun itself is traced back to the straw-purchaser, they can simply say the gun went missing or was stolen a year ago...they were under no obligation to report it. There is no reporting structure in place to flag someone who buys 20 or 30 handguns a month.

Straw purchases are not fear mongering...and rather than gun bans...or talk of Tyranny...it would be nice if folks were discussing how to keep guns away from criminals...as well as crazy folks by the way.

#2 Source of crime guns...Liscensed firearms dealers making back door sales.

Originally posted by solomons path
As you said, buy backs are where grandpa goes to pick up some extra cash or grandma goes to get rid of g-pa's old guns . . .

I have no doubt that accounts for SOME of the guns...but do THESE weapons collected at an LA gun buyback look like something that GRANDPA and GRANDMA have lying about the house??

LA Gun Buyback

www.nationaljournal.com...


Just hoping against hope that at some point we can start the discussion from an honest place.

Originally posted by Indigo5
"Gun Collectors" or "Straw Purchasers?"...I'ts hard to believe that legitimate collectors would be interested in the average forfieted gun at a gun buy-back.

It's easier to believe that these collectors are looking to make a quick buck re-selling these guns in private sales that require no background checks or paperwork. Otherwise precisely how guns get into the hands of criminals.

I was commenting on this post. The post in regard to this buy back program and the article about collectors scooping up guns on the cheap. Are the purchases you reference an issue that should be looked into? Sure. But, asserting that those in Seattle were there for illegal purposes to fuel violent criminals is fear mongering.

Since you've shifted the focus and intent of the thread, if you want to talk "strawman" you have no further to look than the DOJ, BATFE, and DHS. They are the largest perpetrators of this practice. Someone buying as a "strawman" is also in violation of current federal law, so again, why isn't the gov doing more to enfore the laws we already have, instead of adding more they won't follow or enforce? The more restrictive the rules and lax the enforcement, the bigger/faster the black market grows. It's true of all prohibitions.

Also, I would like to see your sources for #1 and #2 source of crime guns. I don't doubt they could be true, in fact they seem reasonable, just like to see your source for that and where the data comes from. As it stands now, BAFTE is more concerned with FFL dealers sending their guns to smiths and testing facilites than they are with "strawman" purchases, so maybe you should write the new director and express your frustration with this practice and the fact they are/have been active strawmen themselves?

So in principle, I can't argue with your stance on these issues, they are relevent. However, those practices are illegal now and the gov does nothing. In regards to private citizens selling, again, if current laws that would raise red flags or uncover improprieties were enforced, we could stop a lot of the "good guy" to "bad guy" problem. However, in the end . . . the "bad guy" is the one who is breaking the law (like a felon buying private to avoid checks) and the "bad guys" never care about the law anyway.

As far as your picture from the L.A. gun buy back . . . First, buy back programs only have good turnouts when times are bad, that's why they work on some to give up semi-auto rifles. If you can't find work or put food on the table, getting $250 for a weapon that has no immediate need other than target shooting sounds like a good idea. This buy back business is not new, even FDR did one. Secondly . . . I wouldn't trust the L.A. police or city gov on what they say the collected. They are notorious for making stuff up about buy backs in the past. Well known for parading high powered weapons from the back room or claiming they "took a rocket launcher off the street" and then show a used single use grenade launcher tube. Hollywood baby!! BTW - I didn't read the article assoc. with pic you posted, so I don't know what is claimed in the article.

reply to post by solomons path


www.pbs.org...

Aside from the ATF and University of Chicago studies...I'd reccomend doing some general googling. Multiple lines of research, both Fed., Private etc. supports the ascertation that straw purchases are the number one way criminals get guns...

reply to post by Indigo5


I asked for your (personal) source. I realize google exists. But, not all sources find or state the same thing, even if they essentially agree in principal. However, I want to know yours to check for political spin/agenda. This agenda in not new and there are groups that have been working hard to get to these points, where new legislation and regulation of rights can be put into place.

For instance . . . link to Frontline gives authors name and organization. Dan Noyes is one of the founders of that organization, based in Berkeley, the Center for Investigative Reporting. While they have gone after some noble causes they are definitely slanted toward the progressive idealogy. Just like saving kids from school shootings is noble, but the progressive way would be to take the rights of all for the actions of a few. Most of their "investigations" also seem to center on capitalism/corporations and the right wing. They are also very active of the anti-gun lobby, in the Bay Area. Link to their wiki page:
Center for Investigative Reporting

Here is another opinion on why guns bought in other states end up in the hands of criminals:

Differences in laws among the States foster a black market where guns flow from so-called “weak-law” States like Georgia to “strong-law” States like New York. In 2007 police seized 10,444 firearms in New York State. Of those that could be traced (about half), seventy-one percent had been sold at retail outside the State. For those seized in the NYC metro area the proportion of out-of-State guns was eighty-six percent. Contrast that with California, where any resident with a clean record can buy a handgun without a permit. In 2008 ATF traced 30,641 guns recovered in the Golden State. Of those that could be traced (again, about half) seventy-three percent were originally sold within the State.

Legal buys other states

While his organization isn't connected to Frontline, he has the credentials to back up his articles (worked for ATF, etc). You can see all on his site, if you like. EDIT - Wachtel is actually the source they use for their article - not sure how I missed that on first read.

The Frontline article is concluding conspiring FFL dealers and clandestine arms trafficking . . . just the image leader Feinstein is alway trying to portray about the gun industry . . . subversive criminals. Now Wachtel talks a great deal about the problem of strawmen, in his article too. I'm pretty sure he might agree it's the number one source. But, if you look around it can be debated and it is entirely dependent on location, as most of the strawmen guns end up in and come from the states closet to those with bans . . . which is exactly the way the black market works under prohibition.

As I said, it is an issue. But there are other ways, theft, private sale, black market . . . Could strawman be number 1 source and should the gov enforce the laws that are already on the books, yes. But again, that you came in shouting "strawman" without any evidence that the collectors were anything less than they said were. That's fear mongering and that's exactly what the anti-gun lobby wants the public to think when they hear of gun shows and dealers in general (as well as private buys). That was part of the reason for Fast and Furious, to "show how easy it was to get guns in the hands of criminals in Arizona". Their methods didn't work here though, like they did on New York . . . the Mexican Cartels seem smarter than BATFE and the New York criminals.

Has it worked on you?

reply to post by solomons path


In short, I define "straw purchases" to include unreported "private sales" to criminals..

As far as personal sources I provided the one link that ranks where criminal guns originate. Honestly the rest involves reading many varied sources over the months and years.

As far as state laws and how easy or hard it is to buy a gun...absolutely that factors in. But someone legally purchasing a gun for resale to criminals at a mark-up is still a "straw purchase" whether made locally or across state lines.

Here is an interesting breakdown of the FFL Dealer - Crime gun relationship..if interested...pdf

www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/208079.pdf

reply to post by Indigo5


These guys are smarter than you think. Say for example, my dad leaves me an old Colt .38 Super Auto [made in mid 70"s] and I go sell it to these yahoos at $200 'cause I don't know any better and think I'm getting a quick buck for an old gun. Go here and take a look at the prices.

www.gunbroker.com...

When my Dad died, he left me several vintage guns, worth quite a bit. That's what these guys are looking for many times.

Originally posted by solomons path
But again, that you came in shouting "strawman" without any evidence that the collectors were anything less than they said were. That's fear mongering and that's exactly what the anti-gun lobby wants the public to think when they hear of gun shows and dealers in general (as well as private buys).

Fair enough...and I already posted that it was possible that there were no straw purchases going on...that none of the private buyers purchased with the intent of resale to folks not legally able to buy a gun.

But whether they were all legitimate collectors or included folks involved in illegal gun sales...will never be known because the NRA has successfully fought any monitoring what-so-ever of those transactions....So niether of us can be proven right or wrong...because of the NRA and Gun Lobby preventing us knowing...and that is my general beef with the process.

If I am a criminal looking to make a quick buck in a large city...I can stand beside a police station at a gun buy back...buy a dozen handguns and sell them on the street the next day at a mark-up. What safeguards are in place to prevent that from happening? No registration or tracking, no FFL, No background checks...no doc requirement, no background check and if it ever comes back to me by some fluke of circumstance I can say that I lost those guns or they were stolen...no law requiring that I report if my guns are lost or stolen.

If those opposed to gun bans want to interject rational thought into the debate, it would be great if they did..we need it. But the NRA responding "hell no" to suggestions that we enforce current law or improve background checks...look for ways to stop the flow of guns to gangs? They refuse to even discuss it...the only answer they suggest is more guns...I am niether pro widespread gun bans...nor anti any regualtion....I want to rational middle ground where a discussion is had that doesn't affront the 2nd amendment and includes "regulation" where it matters most...crime etc....and what I get is talk of Mao, Stalin and folks demanding they be able to carry thier ARs on airplanes.

reply to post by Indigo5


Im not opposed to universal background checks in theory.

The reality though is that those who would pass a check would run the check and those who would not pass the check would just continue to illegally transfer the firearms.

The "gun show loophole" just becomes the "van in the alley loophole."

Once upon a time before the Internet connected everyone with everything this may have made a difference but today nothing is kept from anyone and we all can find anything we wish regardless of legality.

reply to post by Shadowcast


What's a $100 polymer job?

Only guns that show up at these buyback programs are usually those worth less than what the police offers

I can see that.

I always wanted one of those old Mauser broomhandle So if I was standing at a buy back I would probably try to make the guy a better offer.

reply to post by Indigo5


I agree . . . the NRA is a huge part of the exasperation of this issue.


That organization should have never aligned themselves with either party and should be promoting freedom, not fueling politcal rhetoric. They've been long tainted by the culture of professional politics in Washington.

reply to post by solomons path


We agree there. I am not convinced that state-level gun bans are the best solution, nor even federal level gun bans the best solution. Will it reduce gun violence? Maybe some...but as far as crime guns, as opposed to accidental shootings and wackos...with crime guns, which constitute the bulk of the gun violence...state level bans drive illicet sales across state lines. And I'll throw a "logic" bone to the gun rights zealots here...if we did a federal ban..across all the states...then the cartels in Mexico would start shipping guns north at hefty mark-up. It would reduce availability, increase price...but how much that drives down gun crime would remain to be seen.

I think tracking and cracking down on illicet gun sales here would be the best immediate option...and we can revisit the ban idea if that fails.

BUT the NRA is steadfastly against that and has successfully nuetered the ATF in funding, manpower and actual legislation forbidding them from being effective...and that drives the debate to the uneccessary extreme of everyone should be able to own guns...or ban them all.

Jon Stewart had a bit the other night that outlined the NRA and ATF fairly well...

Right now the ATF is PROHIBITED by law from inspecting even a FFL dealers inventory more than ONCE a year....AND has so few resources that in practice the average for a FFL dealer is an inspection ONCE EVERY SEVENTEEN YEARS...and that is for folks with FFLs! Let alone any tracking of private sales...NRA says hell no!

It really is a good watch...

www.thedailyshow.com...

reply to post by Indigo5


I agree. I see no problem with inspections as it relates to commerce. That is something the gov can regulate. It would be no different that an health inspector at a restaurant, right?

I think the source I linked for you that talked about undercover's going in and trying to see if owners are willing to buy for someone else should be used too . . . I mean, besides running guns themselves, what else are BATFE agents doing these days. We certainly employ a lot, in every state. I see that as the same as seeing if retailers will sell cigs or alcohol to minors.

reply to post by solomons path


I read a stat...which of course isn't perfect, but if it is even close to correct...That something like 48% of crime guns can be traced back to 1% of FFL Dealers. The issue is how difficult it is to prosecute that 1% with the laws on the books. See Chucks Gun Shop outside of Chicago..link below. they discuss stings BTW.

www.suntimes.com...