Daniel; Let them eat bean-cake

reply to post by tetra50

Oh dear.
The title of my next thread, now in draft, is "The stone and the statue". I hope that is serious enough.
It's partly about the best way of giving a brief indication of the content.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by tetra50

 

You ask why it matters.
It might help if I tell you that I am the son of two schoolteachers and the grandson of another one.
The teaching instinct is in the blood. I feel I'm doing something useful and valuable if I help people to understand things. It's a kind of compulsion.
I focus on Biblical matters, because they're what I'm best qualified to teach, and most interested in teaching.

No I didn't exactly ask why it mattered. I know why it matters, I am asking you to do the same, to really think about that, while you use your biblical knowledge and write....

Knowing the thing does not mean we know what to do with it, and something so important, really matters, and what we leave the others with about this and what it might mean....do you get what I am telling you???

Don't get me wrong...our knowledge of that script means "We are not in a position to judge ANYONE. That, I think, is the whole point of it....

Your title, is a joke, using the scipture, and employing historical happenings and what we EAT, survival....
These are heavy matters. Connections are being made, as they were intended to be made, and what side would you want to be on , using the scripture and survival, today.....

If you are a true student scholar of the scripture, and what it intended, for what is happening today, including perceptions of slavery, and survival, think about what it meant in the day it was written, and what it means today.......

Understand, I am not preaching to you....if you were interested enough to study that scripture you have a responsibility, and it is not what general society would tell you. In other words, I don't care if you go smoke crack tonight, it doesn't effect/affect what you may or may not know in this day and these times, this, the survival of the fittest, now, what it takes, to be here now, and wake up tomorrow and have FAITH, is NOT TO BE JUDGED by ANYONE, and this will be the hardest lesson for those whom rely upon the works of their lives.

For, it will not be about works....
will it?

and so, no it will not be about your writing, either, or mine.....

Originally posted by tetra50
No I didn't exactly ask why it mattered.

Yes you did. You used these exact words "I have to ask why it matters to you", and that's what I was responding to.
On the subject of jokes, I have to remind you that Jesus joked.
"If a blind man leads a blind man, they will both fall into the ditch" was a joke.
The image of a camel going through the eye of a needle was deliberately absurd, to achieve an impact on the mind. Serious things CAN have an odd smile added to them . It does no harm
I'm not sure where the rest of your post is going, so I can't comment.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by tetra50
No I didn't exactly ask why it mattered.

Yes you did. You used these exact words "I have to ask why it matters to you", and that's what I was responding to.
On the subject of jokes, I have to remind you that Jesus joked.
"If a blind man leads a blind man, they will both fall into the ditch" was a joke.
The image of a camel going through the eye of a needle was deliberately absurd, to achieve an impact on the mind. Serious things CAN have an odd smile added to them . It does no harm
I'm not sure where the rest of your post is going, so I can't comment.

edit on 28-1-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

and, neither am I sure where your post is going, ergo the whole thing....
however, i stand by my original stance....and that is, Daniel, his phrophecy, and his enslavery to Nebuchanezzar and how that may or may not have affected his life in slavery and therefore, his interpretations, thereof, and your treatment of them, specifically, about survival, food, and comparison to the historical revolution supposedly in France and the response of Antoinette, suppsedly, to the starvation of the masses,
well, I stand by everything I have written.
and, no, i don't take jokes about any of this easily. And if you claim a name such as Disraili, you shouldn't either......for you have a greater responsibility likewise. Go back and read what I have to say. This is your responsibility, calling yourself what you do.....
some of us do what we will, and what we can, and live how we do and how we have to,....to interpet is to take a motivation you should be prepared for.....
And yes, I stand by that......

reply to post by tetra50

If you want to know the point of my original post, it is in the last three sentences, which I was leading up to.
The ones beginning "the intended message of this chapter..."
That's where the serious business of the post is, if you want to get straight to it.

reply to post by tetra50


the book of Daniel....you say?...AHEM
the most foremost athiest in the world today wrote in his best selling book....that the Scripture is the best literary work by far and that anyone who doesn't think so is probably illiterate, he's famous theses days....
now the book of Daniel.....one would have to read it...once for the milk......then read it again for the meat.....I promise this is true.

Conditions have changed again, and this question of “meat being sacrificed to idols” is no longer a living issue.
But we can still apply the moral of the story to the more general issue, of the friction between two competing loyalties.
Later chapters in this book are dealing with more direct conflicts between believers and the state.
The third chapter is about the king commanding a worship which God has forbidden.
The sixth chapter is about the king forbidding a worship which God has commanded.
But these are both examples of conscious confrontation on the part of the state, where there are people knowingly trying to stir up trouble.

This first chapter covers a much earlier stage in the development of the problem.
The king’s orders are following his own will and controlled by his own interests, but he’s completely unconscious that the Jewish youths might have any scruples about them.

Okay. See. this is one of my "things," which turn me off to your post, to begin with: what is being eaten, what that means thereafter, etc....

There is so much involved in this and its meaning..

Jesus also said, supposedly, that he would not eat meat before it was time....and what does that mean?
you see where I am going here? If you don't, then reading comprehension 101 and please help me, God....
When is the time, and how do we define meat?

Let them eat cake? What if you were the meat, or the cake? Is that a joke? That's what I wonder, on these boards, and the jokes, and such......
His conscious intention, in fact, is to give them the best treatment possible, according to his own lights.
Therefore it’s left to Daniel to identify the conflict, based on his own knowledge of how the God of Israel wants his people to behave.

Originally posted by GBP/JPY
reply to post by tetra50

 

the book of Daniel....you say?...AHEM
the most foremost athiest in the world today wrote in his best selling book....that the Scripture is the best literary work by far and that anyone who doesn't think so is probably illiterate, he's famous theses days....
now the book of Daniel.....one would have to read it...once for the milk......then read it again for the meat.....I promise this is true.

Oh, I know it is true, and you have just promulgated what you believe with that......
I read it, once, twice, many times,,,,,,
and what, again, would my or anyone reading it mean????And what would that provide you , again? Be specific, as you are so prolific?

reply to post by tetra50

My point was that instead of concerning ourselves with "meat sacrificed to idols", which doesn't happen any more, we can find equivalent situations and deal with them in the same way.
That means a situation where authority is instructing us to do something in conflict with God's commands, especially the first commandment.
Situations of conflict are not difficult to find; for example, a Christian nurse might believe that being required to get involved in an abortion operation is a case of conflict.

Then the moral of the chapter would be that God honours and stands behind those who stand out for obeying his will.

like woodsmom posted......time for more, how cool
Daniel stood up for His belief, the real life nuts and bolts of how that works......God wants us to be aware of His presence at all times....that will guide your speech and emotions and minute to minute trials. ( sometimes we face a hundred trials in a day). He will guide your minute to minute ....and that doubting voice we hear deep down inside is our old flesh.....which God doesn't see( He sees our new spirit self only, I have proof) so without explaing to God why we sinned or failed just an hour ago.....He knows we will.....just meditate on His presence and His message He gives everytime, silently. DO NOT TRY TO BE PERFECT...that will screw-up the kids minds. Daniel sinned everyday.....but that sin was at the bottom of the ocean....so God doesn't know about it...that's how far away it is from God(I have proof). I guess that's when they say don't take your eyes off Him.....(the sea of Galilee)

reply to post by DISRAELI


Please move past the people who are deflecting attention from your message, I feel you have made a very succinct point. My question is do you have any theories for how these rules/laws may present themselves and how one may be better able to identify them when they do?

I am worried about more subtle situations than your example.

reply to post by americanwoman

A good question.
I don't think there's an easy answer because challenges to the first commandment will come up in different ways, from different angles. For Daniel and Paul it was sacrificed meat, for the early church it was giving incense in the name of the Emperor.
It would just have to be a case of "eternal vigilance". I suppose the key would be to be focussed on commitment to God, and then it would be easier to discern and recognise something that was pulling in another direction.

Adding; perhaps we can identify two ingredients.
There is the claim to absolute obedience on the part of God's rival, which might be implicit and unconscious as with Nebuchadnezzar.
And the actual concrete command which conflicts, because it has the effect of endorsing that claim.

My point was that instead of concerning ourselves with "meat sacrificed to idols", which doesn't happen any more,

reply to post by DISRAELI


Oh, I beg to differ with you, and this is the conundrum within which we exist. And knowing that, what is your modus operandi, MO, which we discussed earlier???And which, I questioned your motives, because it all boils down to this....and yes, it does happen, anymore...

but then, are you just baiting?

reply to post by tetra50

Yes, I spoke carelessly.
I was thinking of the western world at large, and forgot about places like India, if that's what you mean.
But even so, the conflict between the will of God and the will of authority still comes to us in other forms on top of that one, so we can still try to apply the moral of the chapter to those other situations as well.
That was what i was proposing.

I appreciate this OP.... thx. In my readings of the Bible I try to do exactly as has been accomplished in this thread. Find out how these people from ancient times dealt effectively with conflict and apply those lessons to my life.

Slavery is indeed a sensitive topic not to be taken lightly, but the title of the thread feels "skillful" to me in its combination of ideas and wording.....

And in referring to the palatial treatment of Daniel, as a slave, perhaps his living conditions were"humane"...I didn't see the OP say slavery was good...

reply to post by balanc3

Thank you for the encouragement.
Yes, there's a lot to be gained from appreciating what Old Testament statements (especially prophecies) would have meant to the people who first heard them

reply to post by DISRAELI


No, I have never posted any complaints about religious threads. I have seen other comments and about them maybe not being in the correct forum and agreed with them. I apologize, I was under the impression that the Forums had different headings so people could more easily find subjects they were interested in. I do understand your enthusiasm for spreading the word. Honestly, I do, but the Bible itself covers so many subjects you could arguably post in every Forum, teaching us about God. Or maybe that is what your are planning to do.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Thank you OP very intriguing I think I will revisit the book of Daniel.

If the bible is such a great book; then why does it require so much explanation? Maybe because it's not relevant anymore? Or perhaps it's only relevant to those profiting from it somehow...

Originally posted by lokin
, I was under the impression that the Forums had different headings so people could more easily find subjects they were interested in.

They do.
Your problem is that you haven't actually read the heading at the top of this one.
To save you the trouble of exerting yourself by scrolling to the top of the page, I will give it in full;

"This forum is for the discussion of published clairvoyant predictions from contemporary pyschics and "prophets" as well as ancient prophecies and prognostications.
This forum is not intended as a venue to post your personal predictions"

Daniel, like Revelation, is included in that rubric as "published ancient prophecy".
You will see the "prophecy" application of this chapter at the end of the OP.

I will tell you exactly what my intentions are.
I have already systematically covered the whole of Revelation in a series of threads on the same principle.
You haven't met them yet?
There's an "Index" thread at this location which will help you navigate around them;
Revelation; Project Complete
I've already done occasional threads on portions of the second half of Daniel.
I am now probably going to go through the first half, and may try to fill in some of the gaps in the second.
The next thread in the sequence, called "The stone and the statue", will be about the king's dream in ch2

If you think a Daniel thread does not belong in the "Predictions and prophecies" forum, then what threads in its current front page DO belong there, in your opinion?
(This is a trick question. Read that forum heading very carefully before you answer)