The Big Debunk - Wiltshire 2013?

Hi all, I'm continuing having mild success organizing events and getting people together who share similar interests. I've been pondering an idea for a few years now, last year it felt within reach and this year even more so. I've not made a specific thread about it, but have mentioned it in earlier posts - understandably all lost in ATS time..but that's okay. It may interest you, it may not. It's an idea that could work, could horribly flop - could even get shut down by higher forces if there's really something to it we're not meant to know...


^ It happens in the same field every year, and people also spot aliens there too

I'm not going to bore with facts, figures, evidence to prove or disprove - there's plenty of other resources for that kind of information. The fact is crop circles happen every year, in roughly the same place, in double figures. This has happened for many, many years, perhaps preceding times we thought it had occurred since (the recent thread about 40's Google Earth images etc?)

Lots of us live in the UK, lots of people visit UK and Wiltshire especially in the summer months, and I'm sure a very small fraction of people actually conduct night watches (and perhaps even get results, I've read of a few legit sounding cases of very strange stuff).

Police men spot aliens in fields at the break of dawn. Crop circles appear minutes after the field was last seen empty. Many people think they're pot-bellied gents guffawing as they walk around with planks of wood hoaxes. Plenty more think there's something more mysterious behind them, but could never conclude that by themselves.


^ A completely normal early morning sight after a heavy Friday night in Wiltshire

Add these things together and anyone can realize if we were to approach this "phenomena" with numbers - a mass of people - we can get to the bottom of it. We've been given a location, we've been given a time of year, hell, we can even nominate certain fields that get targeted year in year out. And there's probably even more pointers that it's the best place to look that even I don't know about.

I know I could go and do a night watch alone, but what is one person's conclusion over a hundred? If a hundred people were to catch a planker in the act, or witness something strange - it's probably going to hold up in future discussions much stronger than it has previously.


^ An artists impression of a night watch, with a man who could be you for all I know.

My thinking is that if we were to set up a series of outposts, which can always be contacted (by radio) and perhaps have video equipment at them for the duration of roughly 30 days, anyone can drop in and do a night watch and help either catch the people in the act or the aliens, without doing anything illegal. People can lend their expertise, equipment and enthusiasm to trying to crack the case, it can be vlogged on YouTube and turned into quite an intriguing "scientific" project. Also just a great time to look up to the heavens. Ancient alien theorists are welcome to contend/attend


^ You can be like these UFO hunters, and wear all that hi-tech gear if you own it already. We hope you're like the sexy lady. Unlike these guys, even if your credibility is in question - we'd welcome your help!

I'm interested in any ideas about the logistics of making this work, whether anyone is willing to help or if this thread is just treated as a "no substance" affair with a few ironic comments. What kind of people might support it? And importantly WHO might give up a night or two to watch & investigate the area during the 'hot' period around Silsbury/Avebury.

You can label this crackpot but as cliché as it is, I think this is why I was introduced to the phenomena, to make this happen one way or another - and until I do, I won't be able to rest easy I saw something odd tonight (two lights heading North East, over east anglia at 2.30am ish in-case anyone else saw) - probably just two trailing satellites but anyway it gave me a kick up the arse and make this post.

It would need preparation and like a good holiday needs planning early, but I think it can be something that UFO, crop circle and other mystery enthusiasts could enjoy. I've also been looking into venue hire in the area so the possibility of camping and weekend bbq's/live music is also an option, but it would really need more support than just me and my Zafira to secure that kind of element.

I'm not saying it CAN be solved. In fact, there's no telling that it might not open up too many questions that it needed to be done a second, third or beyond that time. I promise nothing except somewhere to go during one month of the year and take part in a public investigation, network and perhaps do some fun things too.

So,
> What are your thoughts on participating? (Would you go, would you want/need to stay, need transport?)
> What are the best ways to get answers?
> Would a simple nightwatch interest you, or more of an event/festival feel?
> What expertise or equipment would you lend to the investigation? (You need not let anyone else touch it!!)
> What do you think will increase attendance, or attract more people to help, attend or spread the word?
> Do you think crop circles need further investigation, whether to prove or disprove how they're made?
> How else do you think the above be achieved if such an event as this were NOT to happen?

Of course, if proving/disproving crop circles is of no interest to you, that's fine. But even for the simply curious there could be answers or people to talk to and diversify your opinion beyond what you read on the net day in day out. The UK is full of fragmented clubs and societies but I'm yet to see any kind of significant scale gathering and public investigation. Perhaps I'm just not looking hard enough.

I thought I'd put the notion here first. It's a good place to kick a few ideas about if nothing else, I'm all for ideas, criticism, realist points and even negative feedback can also help motivate to actually do such a thing. So get thinking...get interested...get replying and let's try and make it work, even if it's on a small scale. I need proof!!!


^ YOU could witness and reveal to the world exclusively a fat man and a plank creating something like this in 2013! (Photo is from Silbury Hill area 2011)

Thanks for reading. Have a think and let me know. My background isn't really important at this stage, but as mentioned at the start of my post, I have an alright knack for organizing events and making them work, and an unbridled interest in UFOs and crop circles. Logistically I can see this work on a small scale for now at least.

Even if you have an interesting night watch tale from the area or just an interesting local tale, or perhaps even strong proof of hoaxers - feel free to contribute to the thread!

Mark

I think this is a really great idea. It sounds like it could be a lot of fun, even if you don't manage to have any crop circles happen and a nice way to have an ATS meet up in real too. Further more, if you do manage to have a crop circle event it would be great to have it documented properly with multiple witnesses/cameras, be it of human or alien origin.

Good luck with this and I look forward to seeing the results at the end of the summer.

I'm in Witshire and would be happy to help organise this. where were abouts where you thinking of doing it?

reply to post by markymint


Hi Mark, good initiative. I'll sit here and wait for the comments and ideas. I'd love to join but I'm too far away.
The time spam required for the experiment might be a problem for many.

I'm sure there will be many ideas coming up but I would spread a dozen of microphones in strategic spots to have some real time audio survailance. It may eventually corroborate visual evidences. Just food for thoughts.

I love the idea Mark, but...but my biggest concern which I believe many will agree with is the issue of transportation. I think many here on ATS would love to embark on this journey but have no means of getting to the location. I have a high end video camera that I can use to document the entire thing. We wait for ETs to contact us "some day" when we are less concerned about violance and more in tuned with love, I say we go ahead and contact them ourselves. Imagine a bunch of people (lets say a couple of 100) or more focused on one intention...I believe we can do it.

reply to post by LordAdef


If the experiment was done like a vigil where people are organised with time slots or something then individuals only really need to commit to a small number of nights (maybe even just one or two at a time) each so long as there is a core of say 10 or so people always at hand, so the time element may not be such an issue.

I would imagine that the basic idea, the original concept, might be an interesting idea and have a possibility of working; however, in my opinion, it loses all integrity when you suggest something such as 100 people in a festival-like atmosphere with music. Even a couple old men with a bottle in one hand and a plank in the other would be quite aware of your presence before you theirs. Likewise, I would think the possibility of any 'Alien' presence would be greatly diminished in the local area, particularly those intent upon laying out extraterrestrial graffiti in a field.

On the other hand, it is possible that you would have no influence on an Earth-based phenomenon as some have suggested.

A fertival type atmosphere is pretty much out of the question, as said above it's likley to alter the conditions of the experiment and as I work in the industry I can tell you that the legalities are a nightmare. I would like to think a rolling crew would work though and given the time I'm sure many people could make a little holiday of it.

There is also the Weird Wiltshire event with live speakers on many topics so arranging it around then would make it even more worth the trip. The guy that runs it used to run SUFOR the Swindon UfO research project, he would be a valuable asset in my opinion

I would imagine that if ETs are responsible for those agriglyphs, any stakeout, manned or automated would be detected if positioned in a field where sophisticated equipment would not normally be expected to be.

If placed in windows (it takes two cameras) of a residence, then ETs may not even notice. But one agriglyph formed in Wiltshire in 2006 considered genuine because of bent nodes was two miles from the nearest building (the farmer's house). Some security cameras have motion detectors, but designing and building a detection system with such distances involved could be challenging (probably requiring custom software) and expensive.

The UFO Hunters, accompanied by an officer of the law investigating the matter, spent one night staking out a pasture for cattle mutilators, using a variety of equipment, including an IR camera, but only one night. A Japanese team several years ago staked out a field in England hoping to catch formation of an agriglyph, but they, too, didn't put in the necessary time, the scientific term for which is "as long as it takes."

Does it have to be in person? How about set up some cameras and audio. Life Feed it. You and someone in your area that would help could check on the equipment each day. Of course having the money to setup and maintain that equipment would be pricey. Not to mention buying it

First off you are talking about 100's and 100's of square kilometers of private land.

The people who create these hoaxes find out where the people are watching and just make their design a few field over.

This is from the guide to crop circle making from the circlemakers website :

Once location and design have been decided, retire to a local pub and wait for darkness. If the location is in a well known circles-prone area you may be able to pick up useful intelligence on the plans of the crop watchers (cerealogists). These cerealogists are often very public about their intentions, freely giving information on their own view-points, hide-outs, equipment (whether or not they have access to infra-red image intensifiers, CB radio operating channels, etc. They often even divulge where they are putting their own circles, which may prove useful. It is not advisable to actually talk to these people as inwardly- spiralling arguments invariably develop which will eat into the time you have allotted to real circle-making. This might lead to a smaller event, therefore defeating the object of your argument.

REMEMBER - The discovery of a formation within a 10 mile radius of any local Centre for Crop Circle Studies (CCCS) group will also ensure genuineness.

They will get someone to join the group or contact it just to find out which area's are being watched just like they always do.

also this check list on how to make a circle seem genuine :

A formation will be deemed genuine if:

1 - you are not caught making it.

2 - the pattern represents a shape which leading cerealogists could regard as of symbolic importance, and, therefore, useful on the proselyting lecture circuit, e.g. mandalas, Atlantean script, etc.

Any particular formation might develop its own individual folklore if:

1 - it is made in a field which cerealogists later claim to have been watching.

2 - light phenomena is associated with it.

3 - audio phenomena is associated with it, especially in conjunction with 'd'.

4 - mysterious substances are found in it - particularly if these substances are subjected to scientific analysis and found to be, 'not of this earth'.

5 - a publicized prediction is circulated beforehand (this practice, however, may result in the pattern being repeated in a neighboring, or the same, field). n.b. if you do correctly predict a formation, or rash of formations, it is important, like all good mystics, to exude the public manner of an enigmatic... this may bring offers of fee-earning consultation, or invitations to lecture, etc.

The people hoaxing this stuff having been doing it for years and are very organized and clever. And please if you want to be taken seriously at all stop with the "fat man with a plank" cliche , these designs are made by teams of experienced coordinated people.

Okay i am very interested in coming down and camping out for its entirety only problem is transport for me i may not be able to make it all the way down to Wiltshire.

Expertise and Equipment i could give to assist is firstly my own knowledge, and secondely a camera possibly if i was coming, although i wouldn't want it getting stolen by some one.

You could raise the attendance by getting a few small time bands to play on a couple of the nights. Aslong as you get the permission of people in ownership of the land.


I think its a great idea. Let me know in a U2U if it is definitely happening as i am very interested all i have to do is sort out transport.

reply to post by Snoopie


If you book in advance you can get a megabus very cheap. I travelled from Glasgow to Swindon(Wiltshire) for £14 last year.

reply to post by markymint


I'd be game - I do not live so far away from there either. It is a fantastic idea.

Thanks for the positive responses. I can't write up the plan in full just yet, but the idea is that the field next to Silbury Hill (see the first photo in my first post) is the real point of focus, because that's where a crop circle appears every year in exactly the same spot around the same month or two. I'd nearly honed down a half decent average date for that but have since lost those notes.

But the local area where many other crop circles form is initially no more than a 10mi by 10mi radius. If we wanted to keep an eye on the whole area, it only amounts to about a 20 square mile radius, not the 100 as someone has suggested.

Obviously, I could just park up in the lower Silbury Hill car park and watch for a month on my own, but that's the great thing about the area, I noticed several vantage points where anyone could look over a good 5 or so mile area. Get a few people on board each evening purely to watch the landscape and you'd have coverage. I'll be honest, I'm actually a little fearful about doing it on my own, simply cos of my previous encounters suggesting strongly enough to me that there IS a chance of something very spooky happening. But if worst comes to worst, I guess I have to, if I want to find things out

Thanks for the info that night watches have been tried but they've only been done for one or two nights at most, and that's exactly my point, the likelihood of seeing something would, I presume, be very low, compared to 30 days, where the likelihood is higher.

Transport is certainly an issue. This could easily be covered with some funds, for example renting a mini-bus or similar to be able to take people to the outposts and pick them up. But this is why I think it's important to have a designated HQ (or what I referred to as the 'festival area' previously) - somewhere that people can sign in, and we can see if they have transport or require a lift to/from the outposts. There's a lot to establish but that gives you a basics of getting to and from the actual spots.

But to and from Wiltshire, yes, I understand, isn't great. However, I could again run lifts quite easily on a daily basis from/to Swindon rail station. The actual night watches wouldn't begin until 10pm or so through til 9 or 10am in the morning, leaving all day time for helping people arrive or leave safely.

I'm getting in touch with some of the local campsites and pubs to see if they might allow us a 10 or so tent area that can be used over the duration. I understand a festival might put people off, but I'd be interested in including stargazing with real astronomers, live music, talks on UFOs & crop circles etc perhaps on an opening (of the watches) day/night and also on the closing of the watches, but yes not every day for the duration, that'd be silly!

I'll draw up some maps and I guess it's worth getting a website going to collate all the info so people know who, where, why and when it would happen. I'm grateful some of you have shown an interest and might even turn up to help out

A live feed would, at present, be very hard to accomplish in any decent capacity. But if there's an IT expert available who has strong wireless internet capabilities, it could be done to some effect. We could certainly link it to the HQ area, but then if something happened and we all rushed off you'd be left looking at an empty marquee...

I mentioned "via radios" in my first post like someone from the 80's but of course if people bring their iPhones and stuff then anything that happens will/can be recorded quickly and immediately uploaded etc. So whilst live coverage would be tricky, coverage itself would be plentiful. Of course, finding tech like IR camera would be great to have, but totally understandable if not. My aim is for people to be in the right place, to be able to call the other people, and for everyone to get to the site as quickly as possible and witness things for themselves. To draw up conclusions together and present them when ready. I certainly would not be focusing on "who can get it on video first". That's not UFO hunting, that's Facebooking. Video or photographic evidence would be great, honestly first time round though, I just want some strong indication as to whether it's people or not.

And please note, I'm out to debunk that it's PEOPLE. I don't care if there are great artists who create crop circles in Wiltshire, they're obfuscating the reality of the situation. If we inadvertently cause NO CROP CIRCLES to appear for a whole month - we have still achieved something. If we scare off all the artists, be they human or alien - we've begun the process of gaining answers.

Thanks again for all the opinions, ideas and enthusiasm!

But the local area where many other crop circles form is initially no more than a 10mi by 10mi radius. If we wanted to keep an eye on the whole area, it only amounts to about a 20 square mile radius, not the 100 as someone has suggested.

I think you want to check your maths, 10 x 10 is 100 square miles

www.mathsisfun.com...

But the local area where many other crop circles form is initially no more than a 10mi by 10mi radius. If we wanted to keep an eye on the whole area, it only amounts to about a 20 square mile radius, not the 100 as someone has suggested.

Umm, well I can see why you're having trouble figuring out how people construct complex geometric shapes since you're having problems with basic times tables. =\

Haha! Better call it off then

Here's the main area of focus (just a draft, HQ for example probably can't be located there, but A & B are known very good watching spots, someone else local can perhaps advise on the best vantage points for other areas? I haven't been that way for a while. A central one looks hard to achieve but we may be able to get farmers permission if we explain we want to help them solve the reason they lose a thousand pound worth of crops every year, of course, maybe they favor them, and thus we unlock a whole new line of enquiry):



Here's the additional larger range, nicely encapsulated by a ring road. Albeit them small B roads. And granted, it's important to see in all directions even outside of the "ring".


...or is it? You do the math, I obviously can't

I mentioned the live/webcast aspect in my previous post, of course, the idea is to keep in touch with the ATS community as best possible, so if we can secure something with this website that would certainly help bring a steady live aspect to it. Whether it's just updating a forum thread every day or what not, it's not always easy to start with a large interactive element - the focus is on getting the people who will make it happen, happen - but as I said, anyone is free to come forward and help bring practical solutions to this plate.

But it is still a very good point - if we can make this one interactive and accessible to people who can't make it - that would be sweet. I'm thinking this is going to need a small team to work effectively. It's in essence very similar to a feature film shoot. The question is it's probably not going to be funded, but if I do some real work on it perhaps it could be. There's no reason the press can't get involved either, the question is - how far do you go with that? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't really make much of it, but you might get backing from The Sun who keep up with UFO trends, etc.

If the event/debunk brings one extra person to Wiltshire, who buys one thing there, we've just helped the local economy & tourism to Can we support a charity in any way? Damn, definitely stepping into festival territory again and not really "doing the maths" in my head on the scaling of this idea right now, but it's good that people are interested and gets me brain ticking (in some areas, not the maths area...Silbury+Summer=Crop circles thats all I know )

Please note: No men in black yet, but that doesn't mean I won't just disappear into thin air. If I do, please someone follow this idea up. The only reason I don't make this happen in some capacity within the next few years is either because I'm dead or missing, abducted or men in blacked - so please, send a search party.

reply to post by markymint

...or is it? You do the math, I obviously can't

Do you know what a radius is? Its the length of a line from the center of the circle to the outside (R).

What you are showing is roughly a diameter if we are talking about kind of a circle.

A diameter is R x 2

So the area of a circle is : pi x R squared

3.14159 x (R squared)

3.14159 x (5miles squared)

3.14159 x 25

= 78.53975 miles squared

I think you should at least have a basic understanding of geometry if you are intending to investigate crop circles because i can 100% guaranty that the people making these circles understand exactly how it all works. They have to know as that s how they can mark out all the points on the design

reply to post by markymint


This is a great idea and you have some interested members already, I hope you manage to pull it off. My health won't let me join in but I will be watching and hoping you catch something or someone.

This might help (or not) in one of the many videos from last year's crop circles they showed how each circle pointed to where the next circle would be, if I find the video again I'll link it here but there was so many of them I might not find it.
Good luck to you all, stay safe and look out for each other.