What was Leonardo hinting at with John the Baptist?

reply to post by bo12au


Yes, John's birth was considered miraculous because he was born to a very old woman who was supposed to be barren.

Guess who else was born miraculously from a very old woman who was supposed to be barren. The virgin Mary.

Some good thinking going on here. Art-related topics are always interesting. They are also challenging, since we have to take into account the cultural and religious context as well as the artistic expression style of the time, from both the painter's and the surrounding society's point of view. Not to forget all that has been either lost or hidden away in archives of the catholic church, secret societies of the time and so forth.

I would like to suggest something in addition to the analysis of the themes of the paintings. Going back to what we see (or actually "do not see") in front of our eyes, I wonder if you can find some hidden geometry in the pictures, especially Bacchus. Those of you who are more educated in arts (I am not) should know more about structuring a painting with certain shapes (triangles, for example) and also what they might represent if left visible (the holy trinity etc...).

Just as a side note, someone has made a paper on such things:
Gutruf, G., Stachel, H. 2010. The Hidden Geometry in Vermeer’s ‘The Art of Painting’ - PDF

Originally posted by Leuan

Originally posted by rickymouse

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by rickymouse

 

Jesus fasted too, remember after he was baptized he went into the wilderness and was tempted by Satan for 40 days. Temptation by Satan represents fasting. Which brings up another point, they both fasted as well which is another similarity between the two.

Jesus said that some people called him a wine bibber and a glutten but his time was limited on the earth so why should he fast. That is somewhere in the bible, it's not his exact words, just how I remember them.

Buddha quit fasting also after his initial fast. He looked kinda plump on his statues. He died from eating food.

Buddha was a man of earth? Never heard that before. Was he a sumo or somethingjk

The Buddha died of old age, when he was eighty years old. The death was triggered by his body reaction to a dish of wild mushroom. He died peacefully and mindfully. Copied from this article. www.buddhanet.net...

The guy who inadvertently poisoned him didn't supply the antidote.....Holy Thistle. Even dandelion would have helped.

Originally posted by Trafalgar1805

Originally posted by rabzdguy
Muslims use that finger in prayer to say there is only one god. Its interesting to see john use that finger too..further proving those religions are connected.

Except that there are at least two Gods and probably only two - one male and the other female. All these religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddism, Freemasonry etc) are indeed connected because they were all invented by homosexuals with a secret agenda to create a same-sex society. You only need look at the style of the paintings at the beginning of this thread to see that something sexually strange is going on.

I am sure you don't, but to others, don't confuse Jesus with any of these religions. The Catholic Church did indeed cover up Jesus' interest in women because, like I said, they are part of an agenda to create a same-sex society. Homosexuals want same-sex relationships, so does the Catholic Church and other religions and societies, such as the Islamic Brotherhood. They are all on the same side. Give no support to any of them.

edit on 27-1-2013 by Trafalgar1805 because: (no reason given)

Greek & Roman societies at the time were openly gay.

They had absolutely no reason to make up any religions.

There is no evidence that supports your supposition that Rome, prior to Constantine, ever attempted to meddle in the religions that opposed it. After Constantine, Rome was Christianised, accepting the beliefs of the majority of Christians. There was then a concerted attempt to identify any divergent views as heresy and put an end to them.

The Christianity that arose from this was the most popular and conservative, supported by the gospels and the letters of the Apostles. Divergence from this was aggressively controlled. Mainstream Christian beliefs arose from mainstream Jewish beliefs and were quite clear on most points. It was a religion that could not be controlled by the Roman government or changed due to its adherence to documentary and traditional concepts.

The Gnostic traditions were forced to reject the canonical books because of the specificity of the Greek language in which the texts were written (and the content of some early letters) excluded their concepts. There were a number of Gnostic texts but these were seen as corrupt and non-canonical by mainstream Christianity.

There are tens of thousands of sources for early Christan texts and many Christians gave their lives for their beliefs during the Roman opression of Christianity (most notably, the eye witnesses). These are historically attested facts.

It is highly unlikely that the concepts of modern mainstream Christianity were manipulated by the Romans.

reply to post by rickymouse


I read somewhere he choked on sunflower seeds

Its pretty obvious by his works alone, leonardo was sexually challenged!

Originally posted by bo12au
reply to post by rickymouse

 

I read somewhere he choked on sunflower seeds

When I read the translation of the ancient scripts a while ago it did not say what the food was, just that Buddha said to forgive the man that supplied the food because he did not know it was poison. This article I provided says they are mushrooms which could be right or wrong, I did not read all of the translation, it may have said later on.

Back to John the Baptist, I don't know what the pointing means for sure. Leonardo was not a seer, he was an artist.

In the Old Testament Book of Isaiah 7:14-15 "The Immanuel Prophecy"
14Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign; behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel.15Curds and honey he shall eat, that he may know to refuse evil and choose the good".
New Testament Matthew 3:1-2
1In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea. 2And saying,"Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand".
4Now John himself was clothed in camels hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey"

In the old testament John the Baptist is to be called The Immanuel??
What is the true story on John and Jesus..I have a feeling they twisted things up at the council of nicea
John the Baptist was a miraculous birth, Six months older than His cousin Jesus..Something is not right

Too much wine at communion methinks.

Originally posted by Blue Shift
John the Baptist was a popular preacher and the true "Messiah" (even though he supposedly denied it - who can say, really?), with a message of transcendence and brotherly love. Jesus was a sorcerer and a politically ambitious descendant of Solomon who manipulated the situation to have John beheaded and took over his relatively large group of followers -- as well as some of John's message, at least outwardly -- in an attempt to create an army, rout the Romans, and establish himself on the throne.

He went a little power mad, his plan went horribly wrong, and he ended up hanged for his trouble, but through the work of Saint Peter and some wild twists of history ended up with a lot of misguided people thinking he was the Son of God and Savior.

It's all in the Books, but you have to read between the lines a little.

say what! ?

seriously ?....more please

reply to post by LucidDreamer85

I agree. There were many so-called "Messiah" that were running around during that timeframe.

Personally I'll stick with my "Jesus=Dionysus" theory (untill someone can convince me otherwise)

Maybe it was just johns pose that he liked and posed like that all the time, it was cool back then. ....kinda like the " Tebow" pose.

reply to post by bo12au


Think of it this way, John the Baptist was a made-up character that never existed. His birth was only shoe horned in to cover up who Mary really was. A woman who claimed to be the messiah? They couldn't have that because the OT prophecies called for a male messiah, not a female one

John the Baptist foretelling of Jesus' coming was actually Mary foretelling the birth of her child and John baptizing Jesus was actually Mary giving birth to John the apostle. My opinion of course.

hmm john the baptist was a bit drug addled wasn't he... perhaps he's pointing up as he's "high".

This is a drawing by Leonardo of Mary, St. Anne (Mary's mother), Jesus, and John the Baptist.

Notice how Anne looks directly at Mary while pointing to the sky with her left hand. Maybe this is also pointing to Mary being "god"? I think so.

ETA: Also notice how the baby Jesus looks at John the Baptist while pointing at Anne's finger pointing to the sky. Is that somehow connecting John to Mary in some way?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
ETA: Also notice how the baby Jesus looks at John the Baptist while pointing at Anne's finger pointing to the sky. Is that somehow connecting John to Mary in some way?

edit on 28-1-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Maybe he's implying that John the Baptist is really Jesus's father. It would be interesting if true.

reply to post by Guyfriday


Or maybe John the Baptist was a mix of two people, John and Mary? That could be why he's androgynous.

I'm still sticking with John and Jesus being Mary though. The two looking at John and Mary while pointing to the sky seems to connect the two for me, as in the same person. But your theory could work too.


Notice how everyone but Anne's eyes line up with each other. John could be looking at either Jesus or Mary and Mary could be looking at either Jesus or John. Could that mean something?

There used to be threads around here from one of the owner's wives (valhall) that had a wealth of information on these and other paintings, that were connected to the church, but unfortantely they were lost years ago, when they changed servers or something.

Leonardo's focal point does tend to be on John's hands and even conspiracy theorists Clive and Picknett dubbed it the "John gesture." Trust me - God can reveal his mysteries to whomever he chooses. Clive, Picknett & Dan Brown at least realized there are mysteries to be learned, but because they didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle their theories all fall apart because they don't align with scripture.

From the womb, John the Baptist was filled with God's Spirit. He was such a good person, that even Jesus testified on his behalf, that amongst those born of women, that there is none greater than John. He also testified that John was more than a prophet because he is sent ahead of the Messiah to prepare the way. What most people totally fail to realize is that John is still at work by preparing the way for Jesus, not by power, nor by might but by God's Spirit.

Jesus is the bridegroom and the bride belongs to him. John is only the friend of the bridegroom and tells us plainly in John 3, that he is not the Messiah but only sent ahead of him. Another part to the mystery of John is found in the parable of the 10 virgins, where it says: "At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'"

Let me ask you a hypothetical question. If Jesus decided to reveal himself to you, you are in bed asleep and a headless John the Baptist came down from the spiritual realm one night around midnight - how might he communicate to you?

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


If Jesus was born from a woman then how could John be greater than him. Didn't John say Jesus would be greater than him? Why is Jesus contradicting John in this case?

What if when John said that one who was greater was to come after him, it was Mary talking about giving birth to her baby and when Jesus said there was no one greater than John it was Mary talking about her son John the apostle? As you see, my explanation removes the contradiction.

I don't really understand your question. Is it a trick one? Because I would think he'd communicate with his voice.

ETA: Also, in the passage you referred to it says that while in prison, John sent his disciples to Jesus. If he was in prison then how did he communicate with any of his disciples? Much less expect an answer in return? That doesn't make any sense.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


No tricks. If he was headless he would communicate somehow with his hands. Luke 1:66 says that "the Lord's HAND was with him (referring to John)." If you are well versed in the OT, then you would be familiar with the term "the arm of the Lord." I'm specifically thinking of one of the servant songs in Isaiah (55), "Who has believed our message and 'to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"

Most christians believe that the servant songs are about Jesus and those in Judaism believe they refer to the whole of Israel. The servant songs never use the word Messiah - only servant. I believe Jesus is the Word of God who came to the OT prophets and he is the one speaking in Isaiah. And if it is Jesus doing the talking, then that makes the servant one who works for him; JOHN.

I base these observations on 1. a waking vision I head years ago, 2. Something Jesus says in the Gospel of Thomas about John that is also found in the OT, and 3. What little information is available about John through historians (about where he died, how he died and where John is buried.).

Regarding one becoming greater and one becoming less - John came on the scene before Jesus and he was very popular amongst the masses. Then he not only pointed out who Jesus was but he told them what would happen to them after their water baptism. John's baptism only cleanses the outside of the body, The one Jesus gives cleanses the inside of the body (baptism of fire and spirit) and the latter is far greater. John had to decrease because what Jesus does on the inside pales into comparison and John knew this truth. Jesus did say, that the least in the kingdom of God is greater than John, but he also says, that the least will become the greatest. The dead sea scrolls speak of a two messiah theory - one kingly and one priestly. It's a text that refers to the Messiah banquet and it has the priestly messiah at the head of the banquet table.