firearms are not the Issue --- People on drugs are...

Ok, let's start with a few assumptions:
1- The amount of firearms in a country is directly related to the amount of deaths by firearms (of any kind).
2- The US is considered the most medicated country in the world.

Base on those assumptions I did a research of amount of people killed (Any reason or way example by cop, by accident, etc..) by a firearm of any kind. the amount given is base on a population of 100,000. now keep in mind that the numbers are a percentage, so the premises of more people higher percentage is not applicable.

Base on the first assumption I researched the amount of guns of any kind owned by the population in a country, the number given is again a percentage base on 100 people.

Results are below:

I will start with the country that has the lowest amount of guns per population:

Japan
0.06 firearm for every 100 people - you almost have to search 200 people to find 1 firearm (that is insanely low)
Assumptions are valid in this case Japan has 0.07 firearms related Deaths for every 100,000 people. (incredible!!!)
base on this information the theory of less guns, less death is accurate.

Second sample:

Chile
10.7 firearms for every 100 people, that is almost 20 times the amount of guns japan has - if our theory was correct, we could easily assume that Chile will have around 20 firearms related deaths for every 100,000 people.
In reality the number is 0.06 firearms related deaths... let me repeat that 0.06, that is lower by 0.01 than JAPAN!!!

Our firearms relation to death theory is in shaking ground.

Ok lets go to the other side f the spectrum:

United States
88.8 Guns for every 100 people (88 times more than Japan, so once again if the theory is correct we should have at the very least 88 gun related deaths for every 100,000 people)
and once again the theory is in shaky grounds due to the fact that at those incredible number the US has 10.2 gun related deaths every 100,000 people (not quite the numbers you will expect if guns were the issue)

Some might refer to the following statement: "Well Imagine if the US instead of having 88 firearms for every 100, would have only 10 like Chile, there will be no deaths at all"

Base on that statement I research the following:

El Salvador
The worse country in the world regarding firearms has 50.36 gun related deaths every 100,000 people that's five times more than the US, an outstanding number of firearms death, They most have firearms everywhere.

oddly enough El Salvador only has 5.8 firearms for every 100 people that half the amount the weapons Chile has, and 15 less the amount that US has.

So base on these analysis I can conclude that the factor of amount of firearms in a country is not directly proportional to the amount of death by firearms. the numbers of each country does not correlate to each other.

base on my second hypothesis, I also found that in the US 26 % of the population has some kind of mental issues... we are heavily medicated, number one in the world, we even give medication to children that don't need them. 80% of the whole world pain medication is consumed by the US.

So base on that Hypothesis, what would our death by firearms numbers would be, if instead of having 26% of people with mental issues we had 10%.

Remember that only an unstable person will plan and kill innocent people, that's the issue we have to address.


links to info:

en.wikipedia.org...

www.gunpolicy.org...

www.nimh.nih.gov...

funny-about-money.com...

www.nytimes.com...

www.dailymail.co.uk...

The issue is simple
Generally speaking, poor education, poverty, lack of positive cultural role models, and general disenfranchisement is the issue
That leads to drugs, violence, etc etc etc.

removing guns will not fix this issue (although if a person truly teeters off the edge, they wont kill as many people with knives as with semi's.)

So

What is the fix then? more "socialism" to get some educational and housing standards for all? or just keep things as is and continue the disparity trend?

No easy solution really. and arming everyone isn't a solution either. It doesn't work in 3rd world nations, it won't work here (where our ghettos and projects are like 3rd world nations already).

Not for or against gun control. I simply don't care. I am wondering if they will ever seriously and rationally address the underlying reasoning behind drug and violence crimes though...this should not be a partisan thing (but it is of course).

reply to post by SaturnFX
Are you out of your mind? Gone crazy?!

I can't believe you're seriously making the claim that guns are neither the problem or the solution!

You're trying to make a simple black or white issue something complex and multi-stranded.

Pah! As if society could have anything to do with senseless murders. It's absurd to think that economic conditions could ever create enough pressure to kill someone! Ridiculous to even speculate that underlying mental health issues could be exacerbated by socio-economic climates and lead a fragile mind to commit an act of moral abhorrence.

I started to quibble with your assumptions, but since you correctly invalidated them, I applaud your effort.

As to the methods underlying the statistics you quote: those are highly suspect for a number of reasons.
As far as I have been able to determine, the numbers of police shootings isn't reported or collected consistently - most of the time statistics quoted omit these numbers without so much as a footnote.
On the basis of mental illness, the incidence of medication and prescriptions is much more accurately reported in the US due to the Controlled Substances Act - EVERYTHING here requires a prescription. In other countries, not so - drugs are sold over the counter without prescription in many instances.

I agree with your conclusions except:

Remember that only an unstable person will plan and kill innocent people, that's the issue we have to address.

There are such things as sanctioned murders, targeted assassinations and professionals doing "wet work" for a variety of governmental and corporate interests - I would agree that "In general" rather than "only" it's unstable persons that plan and kill innocent people.

With respect,
ganjoa

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Are you out of your mind? Gone crazy?!

I can't believe you're seriously making the claim that guns are neither the problem or the solution!

You're trying to make a simple black or white issue something complex and multi-stranded.

Pah! As if society could have anything to do with senseless murders. It's absurd to think that economic conditions could ever create enough pressure to kill someone! Ridiculous to even speculate that underlying mental health issues could be exacerbated by socio-economic climates and lead a fragile mind to commit an act of moral abhorrence.

Right..sorry. Don't know what I was thinking just then. Won't happen again.

I will choose a side accordingly. erm..which side has a free buffet or maybe cool sayings?

reply to post by SaturnFX
That's a good soldier

We're on ATS and your nuanced approach might unsettle some folk.

Never forget: Black or White!!

Or both...'I believe guns are the solution for all the problems they create.'

reply to post by ganjoa


Thanks for your post...

Still, people that kill people for a living, in my opinion have to have some kind of psychological issue.
I think I can safely assume that a contract killer has mental problems...

There is an exclusion which is the Military. Unless they enjoy the killings.

once again thank you for the post.

This info from the OP has been posted:

HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE
Aaaaaaand:
HERE

I knew I've seen those stats before

reply to post by SaturnFX


Completely agree on society, but I will go as far as saying that it starts with the parenting...
as parents we try to take the easy road of medicating our children.
We have a drug for every issue, and we do not take in consideration the lasting effects those drugs could have in our children.

Is scary when you see a drug and the side effects are worse that what the drug is trying to cure...

We have become a society dependent on drugs, and that to me is the problem.

Although I do not agree that having no guns will make people use knifes or other objects... if they really wanted to do damage, they can always find ways.

The worse school mass killing in the US didn't involve firearms. But it involved a mentally unstable individual

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by MystikMushroom


Glad you are paying attention...

Remember that only an unstable person will plan and kill innocent people, that's the issue we have to address.

Here in the UK the majority of murders carried out with guns ARE related to drugs and gang violence. Are these people "unstable"? Yes, they are, but they have not been diagnosed as suffering from mental health problems. They carry out these crimes through greed, protecting their turf or some other self serving purpose.
Where I live (Liverpool) there are guns being used on an almost daily basis.
Gun control obviously doesn't work!

reply to post by yuniorsan


I agree.
I'm not going to bother with math or statistics though.
You just have to look towards Canada, and it pretty much proves your point.

We have guns. Not as many as the US, but almost everyone rural has a few.
Although we don't generally call our hunting rifles "assault" rifles.
We hunt our prey, we don't assault it, lol.

I don't know what our gun violence rate is statistically, but it's no where near as bad per capita.

We watch the same TV as you, although when we watch Cdn programming, it's no where near as violent. American TV has lots of blood and guts.

We also play the same violent video games.
We likely have the same useage of illegal drugs.

The difference - we're not all doped up on prescription meds.
Those antidepressants and pain killers numb people's emotions, and to be giving antidepressants to growing children's brains is absolutely ridiculous.

Too many pain killers is kind of crazy too.
Whatever happened to "toughing it out"? Not for serious stuff of course, but to pop a pill for everything.....

Big pharma is a huge problem.

reply to post by snowspirit


Thank You for your reply... I had to chuckle at the hunt vs. assault remark

"firearms are not the Issue --- People on drugs are..."

Thats an issue, but dont forget the Gun-Grabbers (possibly UN involvement??) who are STAGING these mass shooting events as well...

...thats the biggest problem. Make no mistake about it, there is more going on then doped up "lone gunmen loonies" here...

I applaud your common sense sir! If law abiding citizens had guns in the UK your problem would take care of itself (as Kandinsky stated) and (assuming your not breeding criminals like America does) . How about we actually work on the problem, which is multifaceted unfortunately and has nothing whatsoever to do with law abiding citizens owning guns. Drugs, gangs, entitlements ( not enough money there and too much time on their hands).No jobs for our youth due to pitiful economic policy. Out of control spending of money we don't have, media personalizing violence, media making murderers famous. Media blasting us with violence every minute, Hollywood capitalizing on violence, Rap music romanticising violence and gang activities. Rifles killed less than 400 people in 2011. The powers that be don't care about saving lives. Their agenda is much much more simple and lofty than that.

reply to post by yuniorsan


Sorry...I didn't mean to come off sounding condecending. I think those stats are important, but I was like "Wait...I've seen that somewhere around here..."

On topic:
I think just like blaming "assault weapons" -- blaming drugs like Prozac is a cop out. Half the people I know have been or are on some kind of SSRI-like drug. None of them have ever had any violent outbursts or strange behavior.

I do think that for drug abusers, guns can be a tool to rob someone -- and that might be an area to address. We really have a poor rehabilitation system in the USA. We also have a dismal mental health system, and for-profit jails.

Lets do the math...

Tons of guns + poor mental health system + subpar drug abuse treatment + for-profit jails = Gun Crimes!

I'm actually surprised we don't have more gun violence in the USA, all things considered.

reply to post by MystikMushroom


Don't worry, I didn't it take it personal

I agree that most people on drugs are not violent, the problem I have is people on medication that should not be, or people in medication that should be hospitalized.

the post was created to show people that we are looking at the problem on one side only, when in reality the numbers show a much different picture.

is easy to blame guns because guns are seen as a deadly tool, what we fail to realized is that the tool is been used by someone with mental problems, and as I said before, unless we address the issue of mental care, people that want to do harms will still do it, with or without guns...

Case in point the worse school massacre in US history was done by a mentally dysfunctional individual and what he used for the killings was a bomb.
en.wikipedia.org...

Thanks for the post