Should Scotland be an independent country?

reply to post by andy06shake


Scotland doesn't need union with the rest of the UK to remain solvent. Instead it needs to cut spending, raise taxes or some combination of the two. What it also needs to do is reduce expectations.

Government can't do everything. It needs to focus on basic, core functions instead of the colossal waste we see today. South Lanarkshire, for example, where just over 20% of those in employment work for the local council. That's not even counting those who are employed by the emergency services, the national civil service, the armed forcessnd the health service. That public sector employment level is completely unsustainable even.without independence. And South Lanarkshire is typical of the central belt.

That is failure writ large. Some Scots have allowed themselves to become dependant on the state for everything. If they lose a wallet, spend their money unwisely, fail to budget properly then for many their first port of call isn't the bank of Mother and Father, it isn't the bank for an overdraft. Instead it's to a government office called a Job Center where they apply for and receive interest free loans and grants off the government.

Whatever happened to self reliance ? Whatever happened to the dignity of man ?

That's what the union with England has driven some Scots to become. Foolish beggars, reliant on government for everything. Unionism is to blame for that. That's what needs to change. It's strange, every failure which happens in Scotland is blamed by the English on the Scots themselves. The English never
blame the union itself for creating failure. The Scots have up until now gone along with that by blaming remote government in London. And so both nations have played this 300 year old blame game.

Independence gives Scotland the opportunity to change. The Scots were the masters in the creation of Canada and New Zealand, they've punched above their weight for generations. They've done that through sheet hard work and force of will. They need, as a nation, to now take control of their own destiny, to apply those virtues which created an Empire in Scotland itself and to consign the union with England and it's domestic failures to history.

reply to post by christina-66


I think you are still a little confused...William III was dead by the time the negotiations started in 1706.... He was a proponent of the idea, yes, but they both didn't push the idea for fear of derailing the enthronement.

reply to post by LeBombDiggity


I would argue that the Scottish love affair with socialist Governance has actually got far worse since devolution. Blaming it on the Union is a non-starter. The Scots routinely vote in parties who promise them the most "free" stuff. The SNP didn't get into power because of any nascent desire for independence, but rather the sweeties the SNP hand out, much like Labour do in the UK as it happens.

Originally posted by LeBombDiggity
reply to post by andy06shake

 

Scotland doesn't need union with the rest of the UK to remain solvent. Instead it needs to cut spending, raise taxes or some combination of the two. What it also needs to do is reduce expectations.

Government can't do everything. It needs to focus on basic, core functions instead of the colossal waste we see today. South Lanarkshire, for example, where just over 20% of those in employment work for the local council. That's not even counting those who are employed by the emergency services, the national civil service, the armed forcessnd the health service. That public sector employment level is completely unsustainable even.without independence. And South Lanarkshire is typical of the central belt.

That is failure writ large. Some Scots have allowed themselves to become dependant on the state for everything. If they lose a wallet, spend their money unwisely, fail to budget properly then for many their first port of call isn't the bank of Mother and Father, it isn't the bank for an overdraft. Instead it's to a government office called a Job Center where they apply for and receive interest free loans and grants off the government.

Whatever happened to self reliance ? Whatever happened to the dignity of man ?

That's what the union with England has driven some Scots to become. Foolish beggars, reliant on government for everything. Unionism is to blame for that. That's what needs to change. It's strange, every failure which happens in Scotland is blamed by the English on the Scots themselves. The English never
blame the union itself for creating failure. The Scots have up until now gone along with that by blaming remote government in London. And so both nations have played this 300 year old blame game.

Independence gives Scotland the opportunity to change. The Scots were the masters in the creation of Canada and New Zealand, they've punched above their weight for generations. They've done that through sheet hard work and force of will. They need, as a nation, to now take control of their own destiny, to apply those virtues which created an Empire in Scotland itself and to consign the union with England and it's domestic failures to history.

I think we should discuss Vichy France ?

reply to post by stumason


No I'm no longer confused

When the Darien Scheme collapsed and with Scotland in financial chaos, William III played his hand and bribed the Scottish MPs, Lords and Ladies with cash incentives. If they would vote to unite the parliaments, then the king would give them some of their lost money back. Many of the Scottish gentry jumped at this chance to recoup their losses.

The Scots have been voting for the SNP because they have offered a viable alternative to Labour, Tory and the Lib-Dems. After devolution we experienced how quickly the lib-dems would sell their souls for a sniff of power long before the present UK coalition - so they were blown off. Labour? Well you can indeed stick a red rosette on a monkey in the local elections but nationally nu-labour (and Tony Bliar) turned many away from the party. And the conservatives? Voting conservative is enough to make a social pariah of anyone who does so.

It's the lack of a viable alternative and the fact that people of any political persuasion or nationality domiciled in Scotland feel comfortable voting SNP that has led to their success - not that the Scots just love a hand-out.

reply to post by HelenConway


You can, if you wish to start a thread on the subject be my guest.

But this thread is about Scottish constitutional arrangements.

reply to post by LeBombDiggity


You make some relevant points, especially about the mutual blame culture that has arisen.

Yet you also seem to be advocating something similar to Cameron's cuts for an independant Scotland - I don't think austerity measures would be the best course of action for a fledgling nation set adrift from both The Union and the EU.

Maybe I've misunderstood you?

The Scots were the masters in the creation of Canada and New Zealand, they've punched above their weight for generations. They've done that through sheet hard work and force of will.

Scots have achieved much in the past, usually with the support of The Union behind them.

They need, as a nation, to now take control of their own destiny,

What they need to do is what they themselves see best to do and not what anyone else thinks is best for them, be they English or French.

to apply those virtues which created an Empire in Scotland itself

Err, which Scottish Empire was this?

and to consign the union with England and it's domestic failures to history.

Which domestic failures?
And you conveniently ignore the many domestic victories or success stories, not everything is doom and gloom and neither The Union nor England is responsible for all the failings in Scottish society.

reply to post by christina-66


William III died in 1702 - negotiations didn't start until 1706...

Unless you're talking about a different William III than I think you are?

reply to post by LeBombDiggity

That is failure writ large. Some Scots have allowed themselves to become dependant on the state for everything. If they lose a wallet, spend their money unwisely, fail to budget properly then for many their first port of call isn't the bank of Mother and Father, it isn't the bank for an overdraft. Instead it's to a government office called a Job Center where they apply for and receive interest free loans and grants off the government.

I think you'll find that it's only the Scots who are in receipt of some form of benefit that will cart themselves off to the job centre for a top up. If I was to try that I'd be laughed out of the building.

It's an exciting time to be a Scot. The op asks if Scotland should be an independent nation and the obvious answer is yes if they choose to be. What I'm enjoying these days is the national conversation we are all having on the subject. I am often asked by relative strangers if I'm for or against independence. I also enjoy the fact that this referendum (and potential independence) has been achieved by entirely peaceful means. (Remember the stupid Tartan Liberation Army of the 1970's - they posted a couple of letter bombs but their tactics were rejected entirely by ordinary Scots.)

There is a very vocal Yes campaign and, we are assured, a positive 'No' campaign (tricky one that) which is not quite as vocal. However, it seems the majority of Scots have not yet made up their mind. Alex Salmond set the date for the referendum hoping to cash in on the positive nationalism engendered by the Commonwealth Games - I think his tactic may ultimately pay off.

Scotland does have to change tho' - it was Anabelle Goldie (a formidable woman) who described us as 'a statist little nation', and I concur. The scenario you describe in Sth Lanarkshire (state sponsored jobs) actually applies across the whole of the UK (at its worst in Northern Ireland). The Glasgow Herald has advertised jobs with the local authority, the NHS, and social services for more than a decade now - The Scotsman adds the Scottish Executive to that list. Where is the private enterprise?

If we make a hash of it we only have ourselves to blame - and that would be a useful lesson for the Scots to learn.

reply to post by Freeborn


Sorry I misphrased, I meant that those virtues of hard work, enterprise etc which the Scots took with them ... to create the British empire ... that's the same virtues I think they should utilize to make their own country a better place to live now, although in many Scots those virtues are totally missing. And they'll need such virtues if they choose independence.

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by christina-66

 

William III died in 1702 - negotiations didn't start until 1706...

Unless you're talking about a different William III than I think you are?

I think Scotland should become independent - I know I have said this before, but it is the best thing all round.

They should be responsible for their own country and England and the rest of the UK can live in peace and eventually prosperity.

I am sure Scotland will do fine. No more UK taxes to Scotland and no more Scottish MPs voting on English matters. It is perfect all round.

reply to post by stumason


Stu - the union of the Parliaments was on the cards long before it actually came to pass. William did the donkey work.

King William III began his reign with his wife Mary. By all accounts he was a very shrewd and devious man. The thing he needed and wanted, were the parliaments of Scotland and England united as one. Using his own cunning methods this was accomplished a few short years after his death . For now, although Scotland and England shared a monarch, they were still largely politically and economically independent.

I did post a link with the entire history laid out.

Here it is again

reply to post by christina-66


Yes, that much I allured to in a previous post. However, the actual negotiations and the subsequent Union were all done several years after his passing.

The fact remains that this little discussion of ours is based on both of us being wrong I said it was a Scottish King, you said it was the Dutchman, neither being entirely accurate Either way, I've learned something today as I always forget about those two (Mary and William) which is ironic as they presided over such an important period of our history...

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by knowthepath

 

For what it is worth, I wish the UK to stay together, but if the anti-English bullcrap continues, I am all for Scotland getting independence then realising 5 years down the line Salmond was just after his footnote in history and he sold you all out...

I don't think we'll have to wait five years for that, I personally asked Humza Yousaf how long we would have to wait for a general election and he stated 12 months to the day should a 'Yes' vote be passed.

It's interesting to note the msm are just now driving home the notion that Scottish Labour is dead, as the best case scenario in my book as well as many people I've spoken to - many better educated that I, clearly (yes, simmer down at the back thank you) - would be for some form of extra socialist Labour to take the reigns. I will be voting 'Yes' to the referendum question regardless of SNP manifesto, as it's not a vote for the SNP Per se, it's more about making a healthy life choice on behalf of those being born right now.

Also, I wonder if any of those calling for Scottish Westminster MP's to be removed, how do they feel about Scottish Westminster MP's who have English constituencies? Are they also to be removed? Just wondering as I'd love to see Galloway back up here the guy is a riot.

Originally posted by Ramcheck

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by knowthepath

 

For what it is worth, I wish the UK to stay together, but if the anti-English bullcrap continues, I am all for Scotland getting independence then realising 5 years down the line Salmond was just after his footnote in history and he sold you all out...

Also, I wonder if any of those calling for Scottish Westminster MP's to be removed, how do they feel about Scottish Westminster MP's who have English constituencies? Are they also to be removed? Just wondering as I'd love to see Galloway back up here the guy is a riot.

Of course not they are representing their contituents,
Good on you - I hope Scotland becomes ';free ' very soon.. I wish I could vote for Scottish Independence too - I think it is a brilliant plan.

Originally posted by HelenConway

Originally posted by Ramcheck

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by knowthepath

 

For what it is worth, I wish the UK to stay together, but if the anti-English bullcrap continues, I am all for Scotland getting independence then realising 5 years down the line Salmond was just after his footnote in history and he sold you all out...

Also, I wonder if any of those calling for Scottish Westminster MP's to be removed, how do they feel about Scottish Westminster MP's who have English constituencies? Are they also to be removed? Just wondering as I'd love to see Galloway back up here the guy is a riot.

Of course not they are representing their contituents,
Good on you - I hope Scotland becomes ';free ' very soon.. I wish I could vote for Scottish Independence too - I think it is a brilliant plan.

Right, right. It's getting a bit boring now, when you're replying to every well informed post with which you don't agree with a back handed compliment / trollism, yawn.

Onwards,

This may be on interest to the OP, Salmond was meeting with the premier of Québec yesterday, not a lot to report however as they held their meeting in private and the only thing they seem to have achieved is pissing off the assembled press.

www.guardian.co.uk...

I'm currently watching 'Scotland Tonight' where Salmond is making a good case, it should be up on Youtube in the next couple days and if nobody else links it I will. In the meantime this next video is from Monday nights Newsnight Scotland with a good debate on Immigration. Scotland is indeed more welcoming to immigrants than the rest of the UK, this is crystal clear, personally I hear it a lot - we are after all a nation built from the ashes of countless tribes from all over Europe, who arrived at the edge of the world... and gave up (Imagine walking all the way back in that weather, just no. ) - Anyway, Amer Anwer is a brilliant young lawyer with great political vision and Humza Yousaf is the Scottish minister for external affairs.

Peace.

Part 1 -

Part 2 -

If it choses to be, yes

So it seems we now have a - somewhat arty - copy of the referendum balot paper on public view. Nice release I have to say, love the lighting effects.

Salmond on Tuesday nights 'Scotnight'. Many issues discussed including Trident and the EU.

reply to post by Ramcheck


I agreed with you - how can being agreeable be trolling
Dear Scotland - I wish you well on your journey, it is time you left home and became independent, stood on your own two feet etc etc .
Many English people feel like me I think