Scientific proof of intelligent design? Prove me wrong, please

Gentlemen,
current state of Physics states the following:

"The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system never decreases, because isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium—the state of maximum entropy. Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the second kind are impossible."

en.wikipedia.org...

in other words:

Entropy (state of "disorder") of a closed system always increases, never decreases.

How can we then account for the formation of increasingly complex molecules needed for life from the so-called "primordial soup"? All other planets in Solar system follow this rule - very simple set of chemicals in their atmospheres, rarely anything more complex than basic inorganic stuff. Pretty much all organic molecules are associated with life - created by bacteria or other live organisms.

Can anybody explain this to me, please?

If you say intelligent like it is "completely beyond our understanding" but it isn't. Everything is math, which does break down at a certain point but look around you some cells combining with other cells made all the life we see. And, yes Mercury now has water and organic something on it, and Mars has something in the chamber NASA hasn't released to us yet.

This entire planet (nearly every single square inch) is covered with life. Do you really believe that ends once you get off our planet?

"Closed system" is the key phrase.
Nothing really happens in a closed system. So things may become ordered in one location, but in doing so, the overall randomness of the universe increases.

You have a good question though. They don't teach the answer to this until you get into some advanced science courses. Pretty smart of you to question it.

But I do believe there is evidence of intelligent design....BUT, and a BIG BUT, that doesn't mean the bible is right, or that evolution is wrong. I think evolution proceeded with help.

Your argument assumes that we understand everything there is to understand about the universe. Science is proven wrong on a regular basis depending on the claim or theory. This will continue until the end of existence.

reply to post by windlass34


If you take a handful of lego and squeeze them really tight (big bang) then your hand will hurt, but some of the lego pieces will have fused.

As for the primordial soup theory - the "closed system" in this case is the universe, not earth. Imagine sitting in your car with the back doors open on a cold day, with the heating on full blast in your face. The car gets colder, but you get warmer.

Oldest argument in the book.

reply to post by windlass34

The second law is written about inanimate systems. Life is the only thing that resists entropy (for a while). So yah, life is different.

Its like the department of entropy was closed when life knocked on the door.

But 'tween you and me, that is one of the signs of intelligent design.

to say the existence of God can't be proven or that God doesn't exist because you can't see him thru a telescope or a microscope is ridiculous.

think about that, you look thru a microscope you don't see God, therefore he doesn't exist.

that is basically the argument when people use science to say God doesn't exist.

but what you can see is God's creation.

therefore it can prove the existence of God.

when you look thru a microscope and you see that something defies all logical explanation, to paraphrase sherlock holmes, what you are left with, however improbable is the truth.

Just because something baffles you and causes you to marvel in its complexity doesn't necessarily mean that a god created it. It just means that you have yet to understand something about it.

OP, Your understanding of entropy is lacking. Here is a better way of describing it. Actually, I encourage you to read the whole page.

heat will not spontaneously flow from a colder body to a warmer one or, equivalently, that total entropy (a measure of useful energy) in a closed system will not decrease. This does not prevent increasing order because

-the earth is not a closed system; sunlight (with low entropy) shines on it and heat (with higher entropy) radiates off. This flow of energy, and the change in entropy that accompanies it, can and will power local decreases in entropy on earth.

-entropy is not the same as disorder. Sometimes the two correspond, but sometimes order increases as entropy increases. (Aranda-Espinoza et al. 1999; Kestenbaum 1998) Entropy can even be used to produce order, such as in the sorting of molecules by size (Han and Craighead 2000).

-even in a closed system, pockets of lower entropy can form if they are offset by increased entropy elsewhere in the system. In short, order from disorder happens on earth all the time.

source

Everything is indeed math, as someone pointed out, and this fractal video is further scientific proof.

How can something so complex as science and math, be so infinitely chaotic yet so beautiful in both symmetry and, dare I say, "DESIGN"?



The element of design is extraordinary and cannot be ignored!

If humans had spent more time in discussion about why the likelihood of god is pretty small, instead of making up stories to convince themselves despite all odds that god exists only for them, we'd have evolved a lot differently.

But as it shows here, it will take a man to disprove a man made concept.

The problem is faith refuses to listen.

from god is the devil here's my theory, to, look I rekon because this soup has a fly in it, god.

Originally posted by windlass34
Gentlemen,
current state of Physics states the following:

"The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system never decreases, because isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium—the state of maximum entropy. Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the second kind are impossible."

en.wikipedia.org...

in other words:

Entropy (state of "disorder") of a closed system always increases, never decreases.

How can we then account for the formation of increasingly complex molecules needed for life from the so-called "primordial soup"? All other planets in Solar system follow this rule - very simple set of chemicals in their atmospheres, rarely anything more complex than basic inorganic stuff. Pretty much all organic molecules are associated with life - created by bacteria or other live organisms.

Can anybody explain this to me, please?

First, the premise that we know anything of other planets is false. We do not possess that information to make a judgment. Entropy in energy says that a hot cup of coffee will cool to its surroundings. We do not know what the universe is surrounded by, nor do we have a clue how dimensions work with collapsing wave function. If you are referring to entropy in information, then you have the ultimate argument for entropy. We know that bits of information will degrade quickly in nature. Life, on the other hand, defies this rule, but only in a cycle of birth and decay. Entropy gets us all, just like the banana on the counter will rot. Something causes life to animate. Science has no answers.

The Bible has the answer. Physics states that the observer collapses the wave function of indeterminate states of light (Both particle, wave and consciousness). Notice that I add consciousness to the duality of light. This is because Spirit (Consciousness) is the animator of matter (Particle and Wave). We can see wave as the information that renders particle in superposition to the image in reality of forms. Consciousness then changes the states of matter in time/space. This is where our three dimensions of matter and the fourth dimension of matter moving in time comes in. The fifth dimension is probability. As an observer, we collapse the fifth dimensional indeterminate probability into a determinate reality by this process.

Here is where your proof comes in about entropy. What do you do to make your life happen? As the observer, what is it that YOU do? You move and think only. This means that the determined part of collapsing wave function ONLY happens by your thoughts at this level. The rest is entirely a process of another consciousness. Do you make your hair grow? Do you make the sun shine or the Earth turn? Do you make your food digest? NO. It's ALL done outside of your field of observation and governance. A governed universe shows us that the wave function is collapsed by more than simply our observation. Entropy can only be denied by choice and choice comes from conscious decision. There is no natural selection apart from a value choice being made. Evolution can never be a cause, but a result.

The second ultimate proof comes from the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. Matter cannot create itself, nor can it create consciousness. It's the other way around. Why entropy? Energy is information and when a computer runs hot, information is moving. Movement is the key to information transaction and information cannot increase unless something is moving it forward against nature.

This process is known as involution and evolution and was known by the ancients.

Involution and Evolution

We are baptized into the river of life to rise to new life. The process is the same above and below. We are the image of God and God created us in His image. It's a mirror for one to rise to the other. The other has already been there.

Why does the Bible know?

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

----It's all information (Word) in an image. We are rendered into Time, Space, Matter and Energy.

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning (TIME) God created the heavens (SPACE) and the earth (MATTER). 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light (ENERGY).

reply to post by windlass34


Genesis 1:27

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

To add to what I said above, we are inside the image created by God. We experience one frame at a time. Our best metaphor is a movie, yet we are inside that image. With this said, how can we explain entropy? The moment of creation is followed by that light falling away. The observer experiencing this moment of collision between wave collapse sees the local perspective as a frame of reference by location and relation to the whole. Consider what it is like standing at the top of a winding staircase. The stairs close to you are large. As they fall away in space, the collapse by perspective. Since time and space are one thing, we experience the whole like a reflection as it happens. All is relative.

Light reveals what it hits. While the light lasts, each of us are seen by God and fully known. As we are inside the image only, we ONLY see our side. God sees both and knows Himself and us. We know ourselves, yet not God. God has no opposite, but we do. God is our opposite. This explains this verse.

1 Corinthians 13

12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

God is Eternal. We are mortal. The universe is immortal and will continue to cycle from expansion and contraction. Eternal things do not change. Immortal things must change and move. Mortal things come and go. What is developed by the experience?

To answer this, we need to look to the image. An acorn has a 75 foot oak tree inside. The oak tree is not the acorn, but the information inside the seed. Jesus said, "You must be born again." Why? Because your body is the tree and your salvation is the acorn. What God saves is the DNA you create.

The wool is pulled over the sheep's eyes. The Shepherd sheers the wool (Sin), washes it white as snow, then returns it as the new Robe (Body). We create that new robe by what is gained by the experience. Entropy is a necessity, but for a very good reason. We are rising to new life from baptism into the water. Consult the threads linked in my signature for more.

What did the Greeks know?

Amni - Stream of Water or River

Amnio - Greek "Bowl" or "Lamb"

"Denotes a thin, transparent, tough membrane lining and the fluid-filled cavity contains the embryo of reptiles, birds, and mammals [amniotes]; the membrane around a fetus; diminutive of amnos, lamb; a bowl in which the blood of sacrificial victims was caught. Now used primarily to indicate the membrane surrounding the fetus in utero. "

Amnion - The amnion is a membrane building the amniotic sac that surrounds and protects an embryo.

Amniotic Fluid - Amniotic fluid or liquor amnii is the nourishing and protecting liquid contained by the amniotic sac of a pregnant woman.

Amnia - bag of waters; the extraembryonic membrane of birds, reptiles, and mammals, which lines the chorion.

Sia - Greek > Latin: a suffix; actor, process, condition, or state of; result of; expresses a state or abnormal condition or process of some disease

Amne(sia) - From modified Latin amnesia, from Ancient Greek ἀμνησία (amnēsia, “forgetfulness”).

AMNE´STIA (ἀμνηστεία）Amnesty is a word used by the later Greek writers, and from them borrowed by the Romans, to describe the act or arrangement by which offences were forgotten, or regarded as if they had not been committed, so that the offender could not be called to account for them.

That image created by the information (WORD) is not you. Look in a mirror. Is it you or are YOU casting the light?

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
Something causes life to animate. Science has no answers.

Magnets.

I like this thread, and the thoughts behind it,
some of it is close to truth (as I understand it)....other bits, not so much.

Just book marking

reply to post by windlass34


? i always thought the genetic code itself was proof of intellegent design.

does that mean that the religions that rule our society are the intellegent ones(or one) that designed us?

Originally posted by DocHolidaze
? i always thought the genetic code itself was proof of intellegent design.

Please expand.

Originally posted by windlass34
Gentlemen,
current state of Physics states the following:

"The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system never decreases, because isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium—the state of maximum entropy. Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the second kind are impossible."

en.wikipedia.org...

in other words:

Entropy (state of "disorder") of a closed system always increases, never decreases.

How can we then account for the formation of increasingly complex molecules needed for life from the so-called "primordial soup"? All other planets in Solar system follow this rule - very simple set of chemicals in their atmospheres, rarely anything more complex than basic inorganic stuff. Pretty much all organic molecules are associated with life - created by bacteria or other live organisms.

Can anybody explain this to me, please?

Five in the a.m. here, so I might be delusional when I ask, how do you know that the increase of complex molecules isn't actually an act of decay? Mold "grows" on a rotting fruit. Are we mold on a rotting planet?

reply to post by Dispo


well im no scientists and have not read much on the subject, but i have read a little.

it seems to me that dna is code and can be manipulated by outside sources, just as binary is a code and can be manipulated by outside sources, coincidence?

reply to post by DocHolidaze


I don't think that's really evidence for or against creationism.