Logical proof of the existence of God

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by VisitorQ
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Unless the Universe is the physical expression of God. Which is what this argument is about.

We can't figure out how life first began in the material world. To imagine how an empty universe gained consciousness (if at all possible) is way WAY beyond us.

Well it obviously it is possible and why should it be way beyond us since we are children of the universe you might say, we do have an affinity with it, we are capable of feeling our way around it. I agree that if we try to figure out how life began as though we are somehow detached from it all as you do then the task would loom as an impossible one before we even begin. lol

reply to post by VisitorQ

As I said earlier in this thread:

By orderly I mean that the "frame" following the next makes sense.

To illustrate: The Universe is not updated so that when you see a bird flying suddenly it's ten meter behind where it was and suddenly a mile away or suddenly just a feather and then a bird again...

That's not a sign of order; that's just how the universe works. That bird could be shot out of the sky, sucked into a jet engine, or land in a tree and live happily ever after. We cannot know because chaos is writing the script. There's no rhyme or reason in the universe.

your confusing what the universe is.

what people consider the universe are actually stars, planets and matter.

they are expanding into nothingness.

because in the Bible, God said in the beginning there was nothing, even a void is something.

the universe is stars existing in nothingness.

since nothing has no end or beginning, the stars and planets can expand thru space infinitely. there is nothing ahead of them to crash in to.

and there is nothing to stop them from doing so. besides each others gravitational pull, which is actually weak ( you can break it by lifting up your leg or jumping) and which is not strong enough to pull each other back into themselves past each other's escape velocity.

if it were true, the earth would be hurling into the sun and the moon into earth. as a matter of fact they are expanding together at a constant speed as a group to remain at the same distance, therefore making it impossible to crash into each other and negating each others gravitational pull.

just like if two people in a car going exactly 15mph, one km apart can never crash into each other. the distance remains constant. and since the road is nothing, the car can go forever without stopping to allow the other car to drive into it.

this effect is seen on the highway were all the cars are going at a constant speed and it appears that you are not moving, only when you see the trees zoom by do realize you're actually moving.

if there were no stars, you wouldn't actually be moving because there is nothing to move to. so speed only exists relative to another point, such as a star or your house etc.

if none of those things exist, you would be incapable of moving.

the point is, what exists are the stars, the moon, the planets, the trees and whatever and everything
God created, not the "universe".

if you ever looked at nothing, that is what the stars exist in.

Originally posted by NeverForget
reply to post by VisitorQ

 

Even if we grant your 3 premises, it still does solve the problem of evil.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God.

To make it clear: i am not thumping, but saying what i feel i must, with respect to all

As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. (John 9:1-3 ESV)



We have all probably seen the illusion above of the Old Woman – Young Girl. Depending on what you focus on, you see two different things. You either focus on the Old Woman and see her, or you focus on seeing the Young Girl and you see her. This can also be true in our lives as we look at the evil and hurting around us. The disciples decided to focus on the hurt and sin instead of seeing the picture of our Father, He who is I AM, working through it. We can do the same thing. Why did He allow this to happen in my life? Why is there evil in the world? Would a loving Father allow so many starving children to die? We have all thought something similar to one of these questions. In our Father's wisdom, He has decided to not divulge too much of where evil comes from or it’s origin (Deuteronomy 29:29).

This mystery can consume people to the core of their being and they never forgive The Almighty for an event they feel He is to blame for (they focus on the one part of the picture and forget to see it for the beautiful young girl). But, we do know that all things work together for the good of those that love Him (Romans 8:28).

Instead of focusing on the “disease”, we should be focusing on the cure that is Yeshua (Jesus). Yeshua told his disciples that they were looking for the wrong thing. Stop looking for something to blame and start looking for The Almighty to praise. They were blinded by the problem of pain, instead of seeing their Father's glory displayed. They could have easily missed out on the works of The Almighty. Think about that for a minute. Have we been focusing so much on the problem of pain in our life or of those around us and miss the glory of Him being displayed? Realizing that our Father that is I AM can bring good out of our hard times is also what allows us as believers in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to make it through those times.

reply to post by VisitorQ


In my opinion your premises sound more like a simulation running. You could substitute God with Simulation and you would have the same result. Heck, a simulation would even be an omnipotent, omnipresent eternal Intelligence because it would have had to been programmed correctly to run.

Its a classic fallacy argument, making assumptions about reality and basing
conclusions on what has yet to be shown as correct, anyone can assume
anything they wish and claim it to be correct because it seems logical in
thought, science is and always will be the best way to determine what is
actually true vs what is simply a claim that seems logical, to prove this
point simply look at some of the strange experiments science has done
over the years, many times the logical conclusion was not the correct one.

Proving a creator is simply a misnomer, what test would you use? how would
you verify it? what experiment could show there is a god and he crated the
universe, so far they haven't even proven a god exists..... they have attempted
it, claiming things like prayer proves he exists, however when tested those
who pray for something are not any more likely to have it happen then those
who do not. Religion most likely never understand that their role is one of
fiction, they are the equivalent of shamans and witch doctors in remote tribes,
just a little different, they have excepted more modernization.

Every time i see religious folks make these kind of claim i cant help but
laugh because all the knowledge they used to make said claim comes
from science, yet some how science just isn't enough to explain the real
world. no, no we need religion and fables for that, even though they just used
science to explain half of why they think god exists, if you have to drop half
the science to make god fit, your doing it wrong.

Originally posted by blahxd67

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by NeverForget
reply to post by VisitorQ

 

Even if we grant your 3 premises, it still does solve the problem of evil.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God.

Inclusive of all = God. All that is.
You just want nice stuff but God provides all.

So wanting a peaceful world is just "nice stuff"? If God provides all, then he should provide us with a peaceful world and get rid of the evil people on the Earth. But he hasn't. For a long time.

If you are not happy with the way it is then you are the one that is not at peace. God provides all that you could ever dream of but you are not satisfied, you want it different. Argue with reality and you suffer.

'I want, I want, I want' is the cry of the human - stop wanting and you will know peace.