Algerian assault ends crisis, 19 hostages dead

Algerian assault ends crisis, 19 hostages dead

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AIN AMENAS, Algeria (AP) -- In a bloody finale, Algerian special forces stormed a natural gas complex in the Sahara desert on Saturday to end a standoff with Islamist extremists that left at least 19 hostages and 29 militants dead. Dozens of foreign workers remain unaccounted for, leading to fears the death toll could rise.

With few details emerging from the remote site in eastern Algeria, it was unclear whether anyone was rescued in the final operation.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Now I wonder how it would have all ended if they would of had armed Guards and each employee was allowed to carry at least a side arm?

Not all countries elite forces are that good obviously.

Looks like Algerians will be the brunt of some bad jokes in the years to come. Like, What does it take to kill 19 hostages? The Algerian special forces

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reply to post by ChesterJohn


Hi Chester,

Existing thread here with updates : www.abovetopsecret.com...

Can you add?

Kindest regards

Rodinus

Unfortunately some countries work differently, have different training and equipment, and aren't that keen on outside assistance when it comes to these situations.

I've heard so many people over last few days asking why they don't send in (insert special forces group here), however you still need to liaise with the country involved.

Glad so many got out alive.

CX.

Originally posted by Rodinus
reply to post by ChesterJohn

 

Hi Chester,

Existing thread here with updates : www.abovetopsecret.com...

Can you add?

Kindest regards

Rodinus

I looked for a thread but couldn't find it.

But it was located under "Middle East Issues" it is a North African Issue. News thread was a better place for it. with an original article title and links.

but at least they didn't negotiate.

Thanks

reply to post by ChesterJohn

Now I wonder how it would have all ended if they would of had armed Guards and each employee was allowed to carry at least a side arm?

I don't think any gas/oil company is going to allow firearms on site for the same reason that people aren't allowed to smoke at petrol stations.

reply to post by ChesterJohn


Yes, i understood my error afterwards of not putting it into the correct topic.

Never mind we all make mistakes sometimes.

Kindest regards

Rodinus

reply to post by ChesterJohn

Now I wonder how it would have all ended if they would of had armed Guards and each employee was allowed to carry at least a side arm?

I will tell you what, even more would have been killed.

Just because you carry a gun does not mean you can fight against a well-trained dedicated and well prepared group of terrorists.

Not all countries elite forces are that good obviously.

Looks like Algerians will be the brunt of some bad jokes in the years to come. Like, What does it take to kill 19 hostages? The Algerian special forces

The Special Interventions Group had no chance of pulling of a more sophisticated operation to save the hostages they just don’t have that capability they are a small force more used to fighting insurgents and guerrilla tactics as opposed to hostage rescue. Even for one of the primer western counter-terrorism outfits this would have presented a real challenge with no guarantee of success. Most SF units will have a story like this where the hostages died as a result of their actions in dealing with scenarios much less complex so your joke is not only sick but ignorant.

It’s a very sad story, who knows if the Algerians had accepted the help of the British and French the result may have been different but we will never know.

I think the outcome of this highlights why the word Special is used for units like the SAS, Seal 6 and GSG-9. I guess Algeria figured they'd seen this all on TV or some nonsense and hey, even Israel could pull it off and be world heroes at Entebbe. Yeah... that thinking....it got a LOT of people killed who didn't have to be, IMO. The 10's of millions spent training those little elite units is what buys success ..not luck or the guys being smart by nature or something.

So...I don't know if anyone has mentioned this across the threads on this topic ...but why don't the U.S, Germany, England and perhaps even Russia as they have the same highly specialized and highly effective units....join in OFFERING the use of those Units to the world community in extreme emergencies like this? The guys do exist, they are trained and when not in Afghanistan, Yemen or the Philippines...they're training some more. Seems a waste when tragedies like this and a literally way of life with Kidnap and Ransom around the world is becoming the norm.

Kind of like the Rainbow 6 (Tom Clancy) concept but not as full time structured. More just a known option nations can call on through some central process and get the units MOST capable of doing the job moving to do it. It might even deter some of this terrorists when they KNOW Russian Spetsnaz or German GSG-9 *WILL* be coming, no matter where in the world they've done it.

So the one time Obama could have used an executive order to bypass congress and conduct a temporary military intervention, he doesn't.

Originally posted by ChesterJohn


Now I wonder how it would have all ended if they would of had armed Guards and each employee was allowed to carry at least a side arm?


hosted.ap.org< br /> (visit the link for the full news article)

Why do some always need to link any topic with the gun control debate in the US? Just my point.

Take care

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

So...I don't know if anyone has mentioned this across the threads on this topic ...but why don't the U.S, Germany, England and perhaps even Russia as they have the same highly specialized and highly effective units....join in OFFERING the use of those Units to the world community in extreme emergencies like this? The guys do exist, they are trained and when not in Afghanistan, Yemen or the Philippines...they're training some more. Seems a waste when tragedies like this and a literally way of life with Kidnap and Ransom around the world is becoming the norm.

They do offer their services, sometimes in an advisory role, sometimes more....it's not always that easy though. Depends on how willing the country is to take it.

CX.

reply to post by CX

How easy is it to request and get moving after it is, would be my question? I imagine in this case Algeria just decided they'd be prideful and do something they had no resources capable of doing....end result? Tragedy added to disaster.

Is it that easy for a nation who would ask though? Say Tuvalu (a little nation in 'Oceania') called for a hostage taking that involved U.S. or other outside Peace Corps, for instance ,,,or I suppose, to the point, it's only their own islanders and not international at all. If they called 911...would it be the day or two for alerting, collecting and loading planes to get the right people at least in flight to get there ...or would it be a week or perhaps much more ..in new agreements, permissions and all that goes with international military cooperation on anything?

reply to post by ChesterJohn

Now I wonder how it would have all ended if they would of had armed Guards and each employee was allowed to carry at least a side arm?

Oh shut up with the unfunny jokes about guns that seem to be posted in every thread now.

If you'd have bothered to look you would have seen that another thread has already been discussing this matter since the beginning and another thread isn't needed, particularly one which doesn't offer anything in the way of analysis or discussion from the OP.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I would agree with you that there are more established counter-terrorism units around the world,. However, the reality is that such capabilities are often subject to circumstances, rather than skill.

Many would attribute it to luck, but a professional would prefer to look up a whole range of issues - selection of soldier, training, funds, support, intelligence, rationality of overall civilian commander giving the final order, etc, for it is the whole that makes a rescue operation successful.

But make NO mistakes, such rescue operations are surgical in nature, and there are ALWAYS high odds, as they will be dealing with many whom have NO regard for others lives and may be too stupid to realize that they too will lose theirs if a raid gets underway.

The overall civlian commander, often a cabinet minister if not the president or the prime minister himself, will have to make that judgement call, that awesome and frightening responsibility, to procede, or to abandon.

In most democracies, only the truly worthy person is elected, not only on just capability, but empathy as a human as well. In hostage crisis situations, he would have rationally weigh all pros and cons, and espacially the concern for precious human lives.

However, most of the time, it is the terrorists whom calls the shot, and not the overall commander, such as beginning to kill all the hostages. That would be a red line, where the call to act must come immediately, to save as many as possible, regardless of any condemnation later.

Would the SAS, Spetnaz, GSG9, or other special force units around the world, done better than Algeria's own special forces? No one will ever know now, but the fact remains, someone, even if they are only rookie cops, have to react when hostages are being slaughtered, to save whomever that remains.

Blame the terrorists, not those whom are trying their best, even sacrificing their own lives in the face of bullets towards them, to save others, regardless if within the hostage situation, or later should the terrorists break free to do their harm upon many others at a latter time.....

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

So...I don't know if anyone has mentioned this across the threads on this topic ...but why don't the U.S, Germany, England and perhaps even Russia as they have the same highly specialized and highly effective units....join in OFFERING the use of those Units to the world community in extreme emergencies like this? The guys do exist, they are trained and when not in Afghanistan, Yemen or the Philippines...they're training some more. Seems a waste when tragedies like this and a literally way of life with Kidnap and Ransom around the world is becoming the norm.

This Rainbow Six type organisation that you are talking about would be a good idea but I don’t think it would work or is needed all the time this is the only situation I can think of in recent times that would warrant such an international response. I can understand however why many would ask why there does not something like a UN counterterrorism unit then again perhaps there does and we just don’t know about it

What we do know is that groups like this have existed in a temporary way such as Task Force 88 or possibly even 373 but these groups are for times of conflict.

I do know that SAS guys usually head out whenever something big happens, they assisted the German GSG-9 in 1977 with the storming of an aircraft for example there has even been press reports that SBS took part in the planning of operation Neptune spear.

In this instance it would seem like joint French, British, Algerian and possibly American operation may have been feasible. I know that Brittan offered the SAS to help out but the Algerians refused and if they say no there isn’t much the international community can do.

PS: Rainbow six is a awesome book and gaming series so the 8 year old boy in me wants this to exist

Actually if any of you had followed the previous thread on this that the poster Rodinus mentioned, you would know that a US plane had landed at the Algerian oil site yesterday to evacuate any foreign hostages and were most definitely involved in the negotiations of this final assault. Don't be so quick to criticise Algeria when they for sure did not act independently. www.foxnews.com...

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin

I'd heard that about Algeria saying no to direct assistance from British forces. (shakes head) We'll never know what difference it would have made.

I suppose my Rainbow 6 idea is wishful thinking, of course. Like you, I wish it were feasible. I had first thought of saying a UN based team contributed or built from the best of the world forces ..but had to catch myself real quick. Wait.. UN.. United Nations.. Military force with elite ability under THEIR command..Err.. yeah, No.

@ To others suggesting all teams are equal and so Algeria was just as good as any other?

Well, I don't know the specifics of Algerian Military training and perhaps they have sent their people to Britain or the United States in swap/training to get the best trained people on Earth. It's possible.... One story I can't forget about the formation of Seal Team 6 though (which was, itself, loosely based on the SAS, as I understand it) was from Dick Marcinko, who founded Seal 6 as a dedicated CT unit. He'd stated in his Non-Fiction book about it, the training allotment for ammunition in the initial train-up of the team EXCEEDED that of the entire United States Marine Corps for a single year.

I think those are the little things that make a handful of teams the very best in the world. Seal 6 or the SAS aren't the BEST at this because they're American or British. They've the BEST because the best is paid to MAKE them that way, Not paychecks..but INSANE levels of training at OBSCENE cost ...so they don't have "ratio" numbers of dead hostages to dead terrorists in figuring out a win from a loss. Just my thoughts.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I heard the KSK even trained with sharp ammunition. I like the idea of a rainbow 6 even if I did not read the book it sounds good. It would be even better to have a single group of specialists for international operations. While reading a post of yours where you kind of asked why not pool all special forces so they will come where ever needed, I think this would be a crucial point if there is a organized terror group starting many single incidents in countries and then do the real thing in one of the countries where the CTs are out on a mission. Of course there are more resources in every country then one team but it´s something to think about.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101

Would the SAS, Spetnaz, GSG9, or other special force units around the world, done better than Algeria's own special forces?

That's the big question. Every situation will have it's risks and you can't avoid all of them every time.

Iranian Embassy seige: 26 hostages, 1 of them killed by terrorists.

Russian theatre siege years ago: 900 held, 130 died.

I'm sure if you work out the ratios, it shows that even the best have days when you can't account for everything.

CX.